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ddudeck
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2006
15:02:54
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 Subject: Synthetic Fluids
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I have an '01 4x4 quad cab with a 4.7l engine (85,000 mi) and auto tranmission (with cooler). I recently purchased a boat that weighs about 3800lbs and will be towing it quite a bit this summer. (It's about 1-1/2 hrs each way to the lake over rolling hills.)
I haven't changed the transmission/transfer or differential fluids before but think I should with the increased load towing will put on these components.
Is there a significant advantage to switching to synthetic fluids?
Is one synthetic better then the others?
What are the changing/flushing proceedures for the transmission, transfer case, and differentials when making the switch?
Is it worth paying someone to change the fluids (especially the transmission)?
Thanks for your input!
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jpkomm
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2006
16:36:52
|  RE: Synthetic Fluids
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Good questions. :) How long have you owned the truck? If you have owned it for that full 85k miles and have never had the tranny serviced, you really should get it flushed. I run AMSOIL Syntheic Universal ATF and absolutely LOVE IT. I will never go back to conventional ATF. You will shift smoother during driving and (I've noticed) go from Park to Reverse/Drive a lot easier when cold. I had the transfer case fluid changed and it goes into 4x4 smooth as silk and disengages just as easily now.
I've also had my front and rear diff fluid changed with AMSOIL syntheic Gear Lube and it has gotten rid of any "urcha urcha urcha" it used to do in slow turns. I also squeezed roughly 1 more mpg.
I, and probably just about everyone else on here, would recommend getting your tranny flushed. You'll have to go to shop to get it down probably and it generally runs $80 to $100 not counting fluid (make sure you get BOTH filters changed!). However, there have been cases I've read on here where if you jack up the front end of the truck to a certain degree you can drain all the tranny fluid out of the torque converter as well (essentially a flush pushes the old fluid out of the entire system). So, depending on the effort you want to put forth, you can go either way.
AMSOIL is a bit expensive compared to conventional fluids (even on the preferred customer program) but it is well worth it in my humble opinion. Hopefully our site AMSOIL sponsor will chime in and give you more details.
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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2/24/2006
19:45:50
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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YES, flush the transmission with Amsoil Universal ATF, the cost is about the same as using the OEM required ATF+4, $5+/quart. Dodge says you have to run ATF+4, but Amsoil Universal ATF works better and will make the tranny last longer. Numerous people using Amsoil on this site, no complaints so far.
You can flush the tranny yourself (I did) with the instrustions on Amsoil's website. If you have 85K on the truck, do yourself a favor and buy 5 gallons of Amsoil Universal ATF. This should be enough to; flush the transmission, fill the transfer case and flush the power steering system...
BTW, when was the last time you looked at your power steering fluid? It looked dark at 30K on my 03 QC, colored and textured like a nice dark beef gravy at 80K on my 00 CC. While your at it, put synthetic gear lube in the front and rear diff's. Heck, the only thing left to change is the engine oil,,,, might as well do that also.
I use Amsoil ATF for the tranny, transfer case, P/S system and Amsoil gear lube for the diff's. Amsoil's the best, but difficult to get. I use Mobil 1 in the engine since it is a darn close second to Amsoil in quality, but cheaper and readily available at WalMart $20/5 quarts. Either way you go, at 85K ALL the fluids need to be changed out.
BTW, I tow a 3500# boat up some serious grades through 100+ degree heat. Both my 00 CC and 03 QC don't have problems with the towing, both of them were converted to full synthetics, either Amsoil or Mobil 1.
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JimzQC
Dodge Dakota
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2/25/2006
08:30:25
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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I just changed my differentials and transfer case last weekend with Amsoil and Mobil1. There is no comparison with the conventional oil. My Dak gets moving in the cold mornings much easier and yes I can see a definate improvement in mpg. I will never switch back. I want to do my Tranny as well, but I only have 30K on mine so far, but it will get done soon.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
2/26/2006
15:08:51
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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Don't even SNEEZE at the thought of pulling 3800 Lbs :)
I'm pulling about double that with the same truck! Now that makes you nervous.
Oh yeah. All for the synthetic.
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ddudeck
Dodge Dakota
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2/27/2006
16:05:27
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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Hay GraphiteDak.
I read another post on this site that you had problems when you swiched to synthetic. I think i was with your transmission.
Can you explain the problems you were having and tell me what you did to solve them.
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oscar
Dodge Dakota
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2/27/2006
20:03:19
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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3800 lbs. is no problem I tow a boat which is probably 5000+ lbs. and my 2000 4.7L 2wd dakota has no problem. I also have the towing package with the transmission cooler and everything.
I use Redline C+ ATF+4 in my transmission and power steering.
If your going to flush your transmission AMSOIL does have a good procedure listed on their website which you will need someone to help you with.
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tc
Dodge Dakota
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2/27/2006
23:30:54
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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yes, there is a difference between synthetic oils. Basically, Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline, Royal purple are all "real" synthetics (class IV & V lubes) that are made from PAO base stocks. Castrol Syntec and all the other common "synthetics" are only highly refined mineral oils (class III) and do not perform anywhere near as well (under heat, stress) as the true synthetics.
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99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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2/28/2006
10:39:02
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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"...and do not perform anywhere near as well (under heat, stress) as the true synthetics."
*BZZZT* - Wrong, but thanks for playing. Modern Group III (not "class III" as you call it) oils are very close to Group IVs in pour point, flash point, shear stability, viscosity index, etc. Even the Amsoil guy knows better than to make that claim, and he's the high priest of the real-vs-fake argument. Ask yourself why, if Group IV PAO-based oils are so much better, have all the majors except ExxonMobil quit making them (and they'll soon follow, they're already working on something called GTL (Gas-To-Liquid) technology that starts with natural gas, and touting it as surpassing PAO's performance while being cheaper to produce.
Quit reading Amsoil propaganda and get your head into the 21st century.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
2/28/2006
20:52:34
| RE: Synthetic Fluids - Amsoil Forum Sponsor
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99DAK,
Ummmm, Hello ???
1) "Close" only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes
2) The base stock for a 100% true synthetic is ... taa daa ... "natural gas".
3) A lot of refineries produce Group III (vs Groups IV/V because III is cheaper to make, and the public has been sold on the lie that Group III Hydrocracked "made from crude oil" Castrol is a true synthetic ... so many other oil suppliers have followed their path.
4) The new oil you mention, ... even ExxonMobil doesn't believe it will ever make it to market. The process starts with natural gas (just like a 100% true synthetic) but is processed differently (supposedly cheaper to make). Now with natural gas prices having tripled ... it's even more unlikely it will ever see the market ...
and all their tests "so far" proved the "new" oil was unstable and fell somewhere between the performance of a Group III and a Group IV/V. Again "close" only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes.
I will be back to answer the original question in another post.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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2/28/2006
21:20:24
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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"Ask yourself why, if Group IV PAO-based oils are so much better, have all the majors except ExxonMobil quit making them."
That's EASY,,, it all comes down to money!
If I can feed you a hamburger,
and tell you it's a T-bone
AND have you believe that a T-bone is supposed to come with secret sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles on a sesamie seed bun.
Why in the h311 would I charge you for a hamburger if I can get away with charging you for a T-bone?
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99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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2/28/2006
23:56:46
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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Your argument was fought and lost back in 1999. One of Mobil's specific complaints was that Castrol had "degraded" Syntec with the new hydrocracked formulation. The NAD concluded that Mobil was unable to demonstrate that claim.
If one of the world's biggest oil companies can't make that case then you guys might as well pack it in.
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cracknmeup
Dodge Dakota
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3/01/2006
01:04:07
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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"The base stock for a 100% true synthetic is ... taa daa ... "natural gas"."
So by your reasoning that makes it ... taa daa ... NOT a true synthetic.
Dude, you're really not very good at this.
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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3/01/2006
01:06:05
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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I am not saying the Syntec isn't a good oil, BUT it's not a true synthetic. If you want to pay for full snthetic and get ripped off, by all means buy $5/qt Syntec.
Just because some NADs say it's right doesn't make it right ;-) Just because the NAD's were douped, doesn't mean we have to be.
Enjoy your $10 hamburger while I am chowing on a nice $10 T-bone............
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99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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3/01/2006
01:33:01
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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No, I guess you'd rather be duped by Amsoil dealers (and I don't use Syntec, another false conclusion you've jumped to).
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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3/01/2006
15:14:30
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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OK,,, I feel like I am in the "Special Olympic's" arguing on the internet, even if I win I am still a loser.
Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.
In parting,,, enjoy your $10 hamburger (Mcdonald's. Wendy's, Burger King, who ever made it) while I am chowing on my $10 T-bone..........
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
3/02/2006
06:49:48
|  RE: Synthetic Fluids - Amsoil Forum
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ddudeck,
I sent you an email directing you to the information you requested.
Regards,
Steven
__________________________________________________
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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3/02/2006
11:07:43
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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"Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that."
So why didn't you?
FWIW, I never pay more than $3/quart for API SM Group III oil, so your meat analogy really has no meaning for me (oh, and newsflash - Mcdonald's, Wendy's, and Burger King don't charge $10 for hamburgers).
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mechanic
Dodge Dakota
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3/02/2006
13:13:52
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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99dak:
True synthetic oils are lubricants produced by synthesis of base products (primarily natural gas) rather than by extraction or refinement of (dirty) crude oil, and as a result the molecular structure can be precisely arranged to meet the manufacturers' criteria for high performance engines. Our high performance engines.
Synthetic lubricants are known as Polyalfaolefins (PAO), consistantly rated as the best by independent labs, or poly esters, poly alkaline glycols (PAG), or a combination of the two.
Synthetics lubricants satisfy special requirements such as non-flammability, thermal stability, resistance to oxidation and radiation much better than mineral oil (your dirty crude oil products including group III hydrocracked fake synthetic motor oils).
Also the concept of environmental responsibility has led to the increased development and need for functional fluids that are both biodegradable and low in toxicity (group IV PAO or PAG synthetics).
Check the bottle of your fake synthetic. Only a true synthetic will state PAO or PAG (or both).
I would rather have a Porterhouse Steak (PAO PAG synthetic oil) than a McDonalds (refined from dirty crude oil).
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
3/02/2006
15:15:36
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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Thanks mechanic,
Q. What is a PAO (Polyalphaolefins)?
A. True Synthetic PAO's (Polyalphaolefins):
Polyalphaolefins (PAO) Base Oils consist of a single molecular structure whereas crude oil or mineral oil contains a broad range of structures. Polyalphaolefins are also known as synthesized hydrocarbons, but are most frequently referred to as PAO’s. PAO’s are commonly manufactured by reacting ethylene gas with a metallic catalyst. The major advantage of PAO’s is their ability to function over a broader temperature range than their mineral-based counterparts.
There are several FAKE "synthetics" on the market using different base stocks. AMSOIL is a true polyalphaolefins (PAO) synthetic oil. Many other oil companys use hydroisomerized waxes in their synthetic formulation replacing true synthetics with highly refined petroleum CRUDE oils. These oils are not true synthetic oils and are cheaper to manufacture. They will never be able to measure up to the parameters of hot and cold temperatures that True Synthetics such as AMSOIL can safely handle. None the less in 1999, The NAD (National Advertising Division) of the council of Better Business Bureau ruled in a debate that oil companies using this hydroisomerized processed petroleum oil (crude or "dino" oil) can refer to them as a true synthetic oil which they are not.
__________________________________________________
Look for the "Genuine Synthetic PAO Formulated" designation displayed on AMSOIL packaging which indicates that the oils are formulated with Polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base stocks.
__________ 
AMSOIL has been the leader in synthetic motor oil formulation since its introduction of the world's first API rated synthetic motor oil in 1972. By specializing exclusively in the synthetic lubricant technology, AMSOIL is able to optimize the most advanced chemistries available. The "Genuine Synthetic PAO Formulated" designation displayed on AMSOIL packaging indicates that the oils are formulated with Polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base stocks. This chemistry is the industry's premier base stock technology. Unlike conventional mineral-based chemistries, AMSOIL PAO base stocks contain fully saturated, hydrogenated molecules and are free of wax and other impurities. Combined with an exact balance of premium additives, itdelivers superior hot and cold temperature performance, resists oxidation and acid formation and provides long-term wear protection. AMSOIL "Genuine Synthetic PAO Formulated" Oils have shattered the parameters of the most rigorous industry testing and set the standard for all other motor oils.
__________________________________________________
You can Request a FREE AMSOIL CATALOG by cicking below.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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99DAK
Dodge Dakota
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3/02/2006
17:15:42
| RE: Synthetic Fluids
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mechanic-
If you read my posts you'd see I'm not arguing about the manufacturing process, nor do I have a problem with referring to Group III oils as "fake" synthetics. I'm just sick of the endless litany about some SIGNIFICANT advantage PAOs supposedly have over G-IIIs in a street motor, when there is absolutely NO INDEPENDENT DATA to back up the claim - a claim which, BTW, is ONLY being made by Amsoil dealers.
I'm not telling anyone to believe the National Advertising Division of the BBB, Castrol, me, or anyone else for that matter. But sheer common sense should tell you that if there was such a noticeable disparity in actual performance between Group III + IV oils, not only would ExxonMobil be screaming it from every ad venue in sight, but they would have easily been able to make that case against Castrol (in 1999), considering they have access to some of the best lubricant experts and chemical engineers in the world.
To simply take Amsoil's word for something in the total absense of any other corroborating source simply defies logic.
I agree that if you're going to pay $5/qt for motor oil then you might as well use Mobil 1 - but I've seen no evidence that ~$3/qt API SM GL-4 Group III is so inferior in real world performance that the vast majority of engines will EVER see a difference.
Since you guys seem to like meat analogies so much, here's mine: if someone made a "hamburger" that had the same nutritional value as your steak, tasted just as good, and was half the price, then I'll take the hamburger.
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