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V8 Dakotas
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Rustywrenches
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2006
20:54:42
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 Subject: RE: Synthetic Oils
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I have used M-1 for about 10 years. About 150k in my Acura and so far about 75k in my Dakota 5.2 xcab 4x4. I have never had any lubrication problems of any type.
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2006
06:19:50
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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rocket dak - the purpose of the EGR is to reuse some of the exhaust gases to reduce levels of nitrous oxide (NOx). The reintroduction of this exhaust gas mixes with the incoming air/fuel and lowers the peak flame temp during combustion and reduces possibility of ignition knock and NOx emissions.
when you say carbon are you referring to carbon dioxide or hydrocarbon?
You may have problems with either of the following:
Oxygen sensor, cap/rotor, cat, PCV, gas filter, fuel injector malfunction, incorrect spark advance, vacuum leak.
- Dan M
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jpkomm
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2006
08:38:25
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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Oh well, I guess I'm stuck with XL hydrocracked for a while since I didn't know. I assumed all AMSOIL products were synthetic (just different grades of 100% synthetic). In any case, my truck is running smoother than it did with Castrol Syntec 5w-30, so there is obviously something different. I'll know better next time.
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NoFlame
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2006
11:37:49
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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jpkomm, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, despite all the hype most Group III oils have comparable characteristics to GroupIV oils, if you look at pour/flash points and V.I. numbers most are quite close. I'm not suggesting you go 25K OCI with a G-III, but if that was your intention you wouldn't have bought the XL in the first place.
I have politely asked Steve to point to some independent research (not done by Amsoil or any of it's dealers) showing ANY real-world difference between G-III and G-IV oils @<7500mi OCI (or for that matter ANY OCI), but alas all he ever says is one is "fake" and one is "real"
I'm sure Amsoil is as good as, or better than, any oils out there (it should be at their prices), but I'm tired of hearing the real-vs-fake argument with the baseless (pun intended) implication that all G-III oils have inferior performance to G-IV oils.
Here's an excellent, and unbiased, article which explains alot (it's a bike-enthusiast site, but the article applies to motor oil in general). You'll notice the conspicuous absense of any oil company ads or banners:
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
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jpkomm
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2006
12:54:07
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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Nah, I won't lose any sleep over it. I just didn't realize it was a G-III until it was pointed out to me. I'm still happy with it and it is still at a decent cost vs. other major brands. No problem here, and it isn't like it is going to hurt my vehicle if I run it. :) I should of just probably asked before I bought it.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
1/20/2006
19:47:20
|  Synthetic Oils - Steven Roark Amsoil Dealer
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NoFlame, (thanks for the respect)
I wish I had a formal report to share with you.
You have seen me post this before ... MOST synthetics have similarly good typical specs, but the performance from better additives, more shear stable VI, higher TBN, etc, can "NOT" be easily demonstrated with a test or a chart ... therefore no reports.
These attributes show up by controlling acids in the oil, eliminating corrosion in the engine, maintaining viscosity throughout the drain interval, helping improve performance in the areas of fuel economy and cold weather starting, keeping contaminants in suspension until they get to the oil filter for removal or the oil is drained, and generally keeping the engine cleaner and deposit free. Again, these benefits are not easily demonstrated with a test or a chart.
IMHO ... Amsoil produces a SUPERIOR Synthetic Motor Oil by using only the best base oils and additives.
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***** THE BIG DIFFERENCE .....
CONVENTIONAL or HYDROCRACKED PETROLEUM vs SYNTHETIC
CONVENTIONAL or HYDROCRACKED PETROLEUM Motor Oils
Conventional lubricants are refined from CRUDE (dino) OIL which has thousands of types of molecules. Refining is a process of physically separating the impurities from the oil and further separating the light and heavy components. Because refining separates products by WEIGHT, it groups molecules of similar weight but DISSIMILAR (different) structure. The result is a lubricant with a wide assortment of molecules. Also, some of the substances in crude oil are detrimental to lubrication. Paraffins, for example, are a common conventional oil contaminant that causes motor oil to thicken in cold temperatures.
SYNTHETIC Motor Oils
Synthetic motor oils are made from pure chemicals (natural gas), NOT refined crude or "dino". Their components are chemically reacted to produce finished products with pre-designed performance characteristics. Because of their molecular uniformity, they excel in reducing friction, which improves fuel efficiency, controls heat and reduces wear. This molecular uniformity also helps synthetics resist thinning in hot temperatures and thickening in cold.
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FOUL FOUL FOUL FOUL (and I don't mean poultry)
Castrol started the FAKE Synthetic debate, by refining CRUDE OIL one extra step and claiming it to be synthetic when it is not. It still has thousands of types of molecules, and it still groups molecules of similar WEIGHT but DISSIMILAR (different) structure ... therefore NOT a TRUE Synthetic Oil. *** MORE INFO BELOW ***
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FOR REFERENCE - MOTOR OIL BASE OIL CATEGORIES and DFINITIONS:
Group III -- Manufacturing Method --Hydroprocessing and Refining.
Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of mineral oil refining of the base oil groups. Although they are not chemically engineered, they offer good performance in a wide range of attributes as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. They are commonly mixed with additives and marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic products. Group III base oil products have become more common in America during the past decade.
Group IV -- Manufacturing Method -- Chemical Reactions
Group IV base oils are chemically engineered synthetic base stocks. Polyalphaolefins (PAOs) are a common example of a synthetic base stock. Synthetics, when combined with additives, offer excellent performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. They have very stable chemical compositions and highly uniform molecular chains. Group IV base oils are common in synthetic and synthetic-blend products for automotive and industrial applications.
Group V -- Manufacturing Method -- As Indicated
Group V base oils are used primarily in the creation of oil additives. Esters and polyolesters are both common Group V base oils used in the formulation of oil additives. Group V oils exhibit a wide variety of properties specific to each individual oil's formulation. Group V base oils are generally not used as base oils themselves, but add beneficial properties to other base oils.
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BACK TO THE CASTROL STORY (the begining of HYDROCRACKED)
Some of the following post was borrowed, some is original:
Castrol is NOT a 100% true full synthetic no matter how they choose to advertise and decieve. Castrol was reformulated in late 1998. Before Syntec was reformulated, it was actually a full synthetic using a full synthetic base stock with PAO's just like Mobil1, Amsoil, and 90% of the true synthetics out there. Once Castrol reformulated in late 1998, it was a known fact that Castrol did not contain any PAO's.
In fact, Castrol uses a Group III base stock which is a hydrocracked highly refined mineral oil with some synthetic additives. This is no secret, Mobil filed a complaint with the National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus alleging that Castrol was engaging in false advertising by claiming their Group III based Syntec was "fully synthetic". The NAD rulled that based on the evidence put forth, Group III base oil could legitmately be called "synthetic" ... even if they ARE NOT.
The NAD is merely a self-regulatory arm of the BBB and has no legal standing whatsoever in the U.S. Hence, their ruling in this matter does not make it "legal" to claim that a Group III oil is "synthetic." It merely means that for any entity willing to abide by the NAD's guidelines, a Group III oil can be ADVERTISED under those guidelines as a synthetic. The BBB certainly does not know motor oils.
If the base stock was a highly refined Group III base oil, then how could Castrol rightfully and legally call it a full synthetic? Unfortunately, Mobil lost the battle because of how the term "full synthetic" is defined by the API or SAE(can't remember which one).
A full synthetic motor oil is defined on it's ability to perform, not by what it's made or composed of. The SCAM here, is that if a company takes a cheap dino oil, hydrocracks it, adds a few synthetic additives, and it ends up meeting the minimum specifications of how a synthetic oil is supposed to perform, then the manufacturer is allowed by this vague and deceptive definition to sell and market thier oil as a "full synthetic!!!"
__________________________________________________
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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Dark Jedi
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2006
22:13:45
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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well isnt amsoil in the same boat as castrol beings with one line of amsoil product uses a group III hydrocracked basestock? so how can amsoil say their group III is synthectic but in the same breath call syntec a non synthectic because they use a group III basestock.
I feel this XL line of amsoil should be bashed as much as people bash castrol syntec for their wordplay on what a true synthectic is.
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NoFlame
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2006
00:43:59
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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Dark Jedi, your logic is exquisite and impeccable - I applaud you sir.
Steven, in this single statement you have summarized the entire debate:
"A full synthetic motor oil is defined on it's ability to perform, not by what it's made or composed of."
I realize that your job is to convince people that they should spend a few extra bucks to have the best for their "baby", and if that makes them feel good then it's fine with me. What bothers me is innuendo promoting the misconception that modern Group III based oils don't perform just as well as the Group IVs, when (in general) according to all available data they do. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt regarding extreme OCIs, but that's a moot point for anyone who's still under warranty (or people like me who don't wish to exceed 7.5K with ANY oil).
BTW, I think the term "full synthetic" is meant to distinguish it from a "synthetic blend", and doesn't intend the same meaning as "true synthetic".
Peace.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
1/21/2006
10:31:28
| Synthetic Oils Amsoil Dealer Steven Roark 1061837
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First let me state this ...
Look for the letters "PAO" (Polyalphaolefins). If it doesn't say "PAO" somewhere on the label, it is not a 100% "Honest-To-God" SYNTHETIC. The "PAO" identification means that the base oil is a Group IV, and NOT a hydrocracked Group III.
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NoFlame,
I will give you cudo's to pointing out my comment, "A full synthetic motor oil is defined ( BY THE COURT SYSTEM ) on it's ability to perform, not by what it's made or composed of."
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A "PAO" synthetic ... ACROSS THE BOARD ... will have better attributes by controlling acids in the oil, eliminating corrosion in the engine, maintaining viscosity throughout the drain interval, helping improve performance in the areas of fuel economy and cold weather starting, keeping contaminants in suspension until they get to the oil filter for removal or the oil is drained, and generally keeping the engine cleaner and deposit free.
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The "Genuine Synthetic PAO Formulated" designation (label) displayed on most AMSOIL packaging indicates that the oils are formulated with Polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base stocks.
This "PAO" chemistry is the industry's PREMIER BASE STOCK TECHNOLOGY. Unlike conventional petroleum-based (mineral-based) chemistries, AMSOIL "PAO" base stocks contain fully saturated, hydrogenated molecules and are free of wax and other impurities. Combined with an exact balance of premium additives, they deliver superior hot and cold temperature performance, resist oxidation and acid formation and provide long-term wear protection.
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Again, I DO NOT recommend AMSOIL 7500mi "XL" Motor Oils for my customers, ... and most Amsoil Dealers are NOT HAPPY that we caved into the courts determination of what defines a synthetic oil. It was however a decision by Amsoil corporate officers, and was developed specifically for the Quickie-Lube Industry - that requires the API Certicication ( API = a MINIMUM PERFORMANCE STANDARD ), and for consumers afraid of an oil without the API certification.
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API Licensing - Passenger Vehicles - What is it?
An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the MINIMUM performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and MINIMUM performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies.
__________________________________________________
Anyone interested in learning more can click the
following link and REQUEST A FREE AMSOIL CATALOG.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
1/21/2006
10:43:53
|  Synthetic Oils Amsoil Dealer Steven Roark 1061837
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I believe it is important to add the following since I brought up the topic of "API Licensing" and the Amsoil "XL" Motor Oil for the Quickie Lube Industry.
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Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed (AMSOIL "XL" Motor Oils) And Some Are Not (AMSOIL "PAO" MOTOR OILS)
1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.
2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.
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Warranties And "API Licensed Motor Oils"
Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes. To be specific, they cannot deny to fix your broken radio, faulty valve or cracked piston because you used an AMSOIL non-API licensed motor oil, or because you've gone more than 3000 miles since your last oil change. Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. All courts of law will find against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans. If any automobile dealership insinuates that your warranty will be void if you use AMSOIL products or utilize extended drain intervals, let AMSOIL INC. know the name of the Dealership, the address, the owner's name and the name of the employee that made this statement.
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DODGE DEALERSHIPS NOW CARRY AMSOIL "PAO" SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS !!!
This was posted by Sephiroth 3/20/2004
V8 Forum --- Subject: New Chrysler Product?!
Message posted by Sephiroth:
"I went in to have my brakes checked today, and when I walked into the garage the first thing I saw made my jaw hit the floor. My local dealership now uses and sells AMSOIL products!! They've got it posted on a big banner over the service-desks. GM may not have been able to get it for their 'vettes, but obviously Dodge was able to, or they found out how awesome it is and started buying at regular price! When I go in for a tranny-filter, fluid, and gasket change next week, it's getting filled with AMSOIL."
Sephiroth went on to state:
"This is at the Raleigh, NC dealership, Al Smith Buick, Dodge, Mazda. I told the guy at the desk I was astounded to see them using AMSOIL and that I had been using it for a while now. After he rode in the truck he said he'd be switching (to AMSOIL) next oil-change in his Ram.
As for me, I've got it in the engine, and I'll have it in the tranny soon! Next up are the differentials. After that I need to get a dyno just for curiosity's sake. IF I get 3-5hp form the differential, and God knows how much from the engine and tranny, that'll be enough without any heavy mods. Well, for all I do anyway. If it is a significant gain, I'll post the results."
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... and as part of the same thread jeremiah2360 stated:
"Norwood (MA) Dodge sells Amsoil too."
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Dodge Dealerships are beginning to realize that Amsoil offers a FULL LINE of SUPERIOR Premium Synthetic Lubricants and Dodge Dealerships are beginning to offer Amsoil.
Why ...
1) Dodge knows Amsoil meets AND exceeds Dodge's requirements.
2) Because their customers are asking for Amsoil.
3) Amsoil = 30 Year History of Research and Development
4) Amsoil offers the best Synthetic Lubricants
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It is still less costly to DIY !!!
Especially as an Amsoil Preferred Customer whereby you can
order ALL AMSOIL PRODUCTS at Dealer Wholesale Prices!
__________________________________________________
AGAIN ... Anyone interested in learning more can click the
following link and REQUEST A FREE AMSOIL CATALOG.
THANK YOU!
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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Stu
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2006
11:15:02
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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Where can I buy Amsoil? I dont like stealerships and want to but it at a parts store.
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NoFlame
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2006
14:47:49
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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Steven posted the following:
"A "PAO" synthetic ... ACROSS THE BOARD ... will have better attributes by controlling acids in the oil, eliminating corrosion in the engine, maintaining viscosity throughout the drain interval, helping improve performance in the areas of fuel economy and cold weather starting, keeping contaminants in suspension until they get to the oil filter for removal or the oil is drained, and generally keeping the engine cleaner and deposit free."
Better than what? A Group III synthetic? If that's what you're saying then PLEASE point to ANY source that supports this as anything but an Amsoil marketing claim.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
1/21/2006
18:43:01
| Synthetic Oils Amsoil Dealer Steven Roark 1061837
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Stu,
A "Parts Store" has the same registration with Amsoil Corporate Office as an Independent Dealer, and is treated the same by Amsoil Corporate. Why are you afraids of Dealers. I can guarantee you that I know more about lubrication and filtration than the counter person at a parts store.
Plus, at a "Parts Store", they typically charge more than the retail catalog price. I've seen Canadian Tire charge 50% more that the retail catalog price (and yes, I took the exchange rate into consideration).
Plus, at a "Parts Store", you can NOT become an Amsoil Prefrred Customer which gives you the ability to buy all Amsoil Products at AMSOIL WHOLESALE (same as a dealer) PRICES. Only a Dealer can sign you up.
NoFlame,
"A "PAO" synthetic ... ACROSS THE BOARD ... will have better attributes!!! If you think my statement is wrong ... please prove me wrong.
__________________________________________________
AGAIN ... Anyone interested in learning more can click the
following link and REQUEST A FREE AMSOIL CATALOG.
THANK YOU !!!
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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NoFlame
Dodge Dakota
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1/21/2006
23:05:09
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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"A "PAO" synthetic ... ACROSS THE BOARD ... will have better attributes!!! If you think my statement is wrong ... please prove me wrong."
And again I ask you: BETTER THAN WHAT?
Steven, I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims here, you are. It's the equivalent of expecting me to prove there's no Santa Claus - I don't believe there is, but it's impossible to prove the nonexistense of something. You made the claim - you prove it.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
1/22/2006
12:34:26
|  Synthetic Oils Amsoil Dealer Steven Roark 1061837
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NoFlame,
Me ... unsubstantiated claims ???
What are you looking for exactly?
ATTRIBUTE SUPERIORITY, GROUP IV (PAO) vs. GROUP III (HYDROCRACKED) Base Oils.
Studies have been prepared as follows: (1) Studies "paid for" by the Oil & Gas Industry, (2) Studies "performed by" the Oil & Gas Industry (3) "Millions" of Motor Oil Analysis Reports ( which can not be analized individually since they monitor a TREND within one particular engine ), and (4) Studies performed by the Automotive Industry in general.
A REPORT PREPARED BY EXXON MOBIL ...
Here is a report (prepared by EXXON/Mobil) regarding the development of Group VI ( "next generation" Group 6 ) Base oils, ( a.k.a. GTL Basestocks ) ... whereby they ... "HOPE" ... that in the end --- that the next generation of basestock oils will ... "APPROACH" ... THE SUPERIOR ATTRIBUTES OF Group IV PAO's.
They "HOPE" ! No Proof Yet ... just theory.
Please read the following report ( copy and past into the address box ) and pay special attention to pages 10 and 17, and 21 (formulation challenges). ExxonMobil is seeking a cheaper substitute for PAO ( Group IV ) base stocks ... but "next generation Group VI" struggles with fuel economy, strugles with staying in grade, and there are issues with additive technology for blending. THEREFORE ... there may NEVER be a Group VI used as basestock.
http://www.exxonmobil.com/corporate/files/corporate/campaign05/gtl_nextgeneration.pdf
PLEASE read pg.'s 10 and 17, where charts describe and demonstrate PAO ( Group IV ) ATTRIBUTE SUPERIORITY vs. GROUP III HYDROCRACKED Oils.
I would create a link to the report if Mark had not turned off the html.
__________________________________________________
AGAIN ... Anyone interested in learning more can click the
following link and REQUEST A FREE AMSOIL CATALOG.
THANK YOU !!!
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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NoFlame
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/22/2006
18:15:20
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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Steven, here was your claim (again):
"A "PAO" synthetic ... ACROSS THE BOARD ... will have better attributes by controlling acids in the oil, eliminating corrosion in the engine, maintaining viscosity throughout the drain interval, helping improve performance in the areas of fuel economy and cold weather starting, keeping contaminants in suspension until they get to the oil filter for removal or the oil is drained, and generally keeping the engine cleaner and deposit free."
Now, could you please point out which part of the document you sited (yes I read it) supports those specific claims, because I just don't see it.
Ok, now for a little copy-and-paste of my own:
"Historically, PAOs have had superior lubricating performance characteristics such as V.I., pour point, volatility, and oxidation stability that could not be achieved with conventional mineral oils. Now, in modern base oil manufacturing, V.I., pour point, volatility, and oxidation stability can be independently controlled. Modern Group III oils today can be designed and manufactured so that their performance closely matches PAOs in most commercially significant finished lube applications."
There's lots more, but I'd prefer not to further clog up this thread by posting any more of it (I will if it's necessary). Please read pages 9-12 of the following document:
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/BaseOils/docs/ebot.pdf
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
1/22/2006
21:10:43
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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Sorry, NoFlame,
Your document (the link) was written in 2001 ( and their reference footnotes are dated between 1959 - 1999 ) and therefore outdated. It even mentions that Group III "motor oils" will be available in the future. HUH ??? ... they are available NOW ... and have been for years.
It is also referring to "commercial" ... "TURBINE" lubricants and "HYDRAULIC" lubricants, ... NOT "AUTOMOTIVE" motor oils. "TURBINE" and "HYDRAULIC" lubricants are FAR DIFFERENT than automotive lubricants.
Please re-read my Factual Link ... pages 10, 17, and 21.
My Posts? "Cut and Paste"?
I only WISH that were the case ... then I would not have to spend hours trying to prove what most professionals already accepts as fact ... That PAO's are FAR SUPERIOR. That a "PAO" synthetic ... ACROSS THE BOARD ... will have better attributes!!! Who has already accepted this as fact ... the Military, the Airline Industry, Industrial Fleet Trucking Companies, Racing Teams, NASA, Etc., Etc., Etc.
__________________________________________________
AGAIN ... Anyone interested in learning more can click the
following link and REQUEST A FREE AMSOIL CATALOG.
THANK YOU !!!
__________________________________________________
P.S. You have yet to prove me wrong.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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NoFlame
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/23/2006
00:42:01
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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Message:
Steven, surely you're not suggesting that Group III formulations have somehow gotten WORSE since 2001?
The title of the article is "The Evolution of Base Oil Technology". If you had read the entire piece you would see many references to automotive motor oils, for instance:
"Premium engine oils were additized to extend the life of passenger car engine oils."
"In the 1970s PAOs became a major consumer-sought lubricant component when Mobil Oil commercially marketed its Mobil 1™ engine oils 25 years ago."
"This performance makes the Group III stock very effective for formulating fuel efficient multi-viscosity engine oils in the 0W-20 to 0W-50 range, one that has historically been achieved only with PAO-based product."
"Noack volatility of an engine oil, as measured by ASTM D 5800 and similar methods, has been found to correlate with oil consumption in passenger car engines."
"High stability is the key to making the premium quality finished oils of the future with longer drain intervals. Here Group III oils routinely challenge PAO performance." (ok, that one didn't refer to auto engines but it goes to my larger point)
And finally, this:
"Table 2 - Synthetic Quality Products Utilizing All-Hydroprocessed Group III Base Stocks
*Available Now*
Semi and Full Synthetic PCMO
Semi-Synthetic HDMO
DaimlerChrysler ATF+4®
Ford Mercon® V ATF
Compressor Oil"
Steven, for a guy who's supposed to be an authority on motor oil I'm surprised that you didn't know what the acronyms "PCMO" and "HDMO" mean (Passenger Car Motor Oil and Heavy Duty Motor Oil).
The document you cited is titled "Next Generation of Base Oils From GTL Processes". It makes NO direct comparisons of Group III to Group IV vis a vis the parameters you refered to in your original claim.
And please stop insisting that I prove you wrong. BY ANY LOGICAL OR LEGAL STANDARD IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE A NEGATIVE. If for instance you were in an FTC dispute, guess what? - YOU would have to prove your marketing claims - they don't have to disprove them.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
1/23/2006
06:54:15
| Synthetic Oils Amsoil Dealer Steven Roark 1061837
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NoFlame,
I am not suggesting that Group III formulations have "somehow gotten WORSE since 2001". Just as they have improved ... so have PAO basestock technologies. I will give you this ... The performance gap has narrowed "somewhat" but it is still a very wide gap.
I know what PCMO's etc. stand for. I merely pointed out the easier to list, "motor oil" since it was glaring at me and everyone would understand the terminology.
But look at the same "UPCOMING" LIST where it states Racing Oils, Extended Drain Gear Lubes, Gear and Transmission Oils, etc. I stand by my statement that (1) they are talking about "Turbine and Hydraulic Oils" ... which are FAR DIFFERENT than motor oils, (2) that the document is wrong on many points, (3) that it is outdated, and (4) shows NO PROOF via test results. The document I shared with you shows proof that Group IV is better than Group III, ... period.
If am not here to convince you that you must use a Group IV vs. a Group III. If you prefer a Group III basestock go ahead and use it. Please do so. I am not here to convince you otherwise.
Bottom Line: Some people prefer "Mondavi", other's prefer "Boone's Farm".
__________________________________________________
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
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NoFlame
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/23/2006
12:05:17
| RE: Synthetic Oils
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At this point I've spent a fair amount of time searching for credible information/discussion on this issue and, aside from the prolific glut of Amsoil dealer sites chanting the same mantra (the Amsoil marketing people have raised googlebombing to an art form) there is precious little data (at least on the web). Then it dawned on me - nobody but Amsoil cares about this little debate. Why? Because the cutting edge in lubrication technology is moving AWAY from PAOs - and Steven's own "Factual Link" clearly indicates this ("Next Generation of Base Oils From GTL Processes" - the GTL process starts with natural gas).
Ask yourself why Mobil 1 is the last widely available non-boutique PCMO that is PAO based. Simple, because PAOs are expensive to manufacture and have been all but eclipsed by modern Group III basestocks that are much cheaper to produce and for the most part now equal or exceed the (real world) performance of PAOs. Actually ExxonMobil probably loves the Amsoil people for keeping a product alive on a commercial scale at which Amsoil (ironically) is no competition.
My prediction is that current Group IV PCMOs and HDMOs will continue to become marginalised to the point where they will become a mere novelty, a true "boutique" item.
I'll say this again - Amsoil is probably as good a motor oil as you can buy anywhere, I've never heard one bad comment about it. And Amsoil's claims of superior performance were no doubt true as little as ten years ago. But basestock technologies have come a long way since then. Is it wrong to spend more money on Amsoil? Absolutely not. Will you ever be able to see any performance advantages over a good Group III? Absolutely not.
Peace.
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