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V8 Dakotas
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Sam
Dodge Dakota
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1/07/2006
17:21:13
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 Subject: Need info on 91 5.2
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Hello ladies and gents, I just purchased a 91 Dakota for a company parts chaser with the 5.2L. It arrived with the engine in the bed along with a spare and I'm in the process of rebuilding the engine and need some info. What performance parts actually fit this engine? I know it is suppose to be a LA with a roller, but the intake looks restrictive and nothing like any LA I've ever built and the heads needs a good porting if it's ever going to breath. I've seen some articles about retro fitting magnum heads and updated intakes on the earlier LA engines so is this possible? Also will Edelbrock or the older 360 heads match up and fit? I've built a few LA's over the years, but this beast looks odd. I've built a few magnums and know it's not one of them so my thoughts are that this is an in-between make do that Ma Mopar dropped on us. I need some dirrection before shelling out money for parts that will not work and wasting time I don't have to waste.
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jayb
Dodge Dakota
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1/07/2006
17:35:35
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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junk it and get a magnum 360. that old LA engine is tough, but it has no balls.
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Zac
Dodge Dakota
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1/07/2006
19:20:56
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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That LA can be built the same as the older ones. I had a 91 same as you and i was trying to get close to 400 hp out of it. I was gonna use 360 heads and edelbrock air gap intake, along with a bigger cam in the .480 lift range. I didnt get to build it because the truck got hit and written off so i dont know how it would have turned out but anything is better that a TBI 318.
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Super bee
GenI
1/08/2006
00:41:31
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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i have heard the 360 heads alone will bring you to near magnum numbers
1990 sport RC SB, 1995 318drivetrain, 3.92 gears (came with truck) 95 dash/steering wheel, hearthrob exhaust, headers, cutout after y-pipe, necessary electric fan add-a-leafs, 30x9.5 mud tires, cranked T-bars, AR 39 15x8 rims, grill guard, roll bars
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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1/08/2006
02:48:14
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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You're right, sam. The EFI engines were an interim step before going to the Magnums. That '91 has the best production heads the LA 318 ever had. They have more performance potential than prior designs. A lot of the changes that went into that head were carried over into the Magnum head.
Those last of the 360 heads (with the same mods as the last 318's), and with 2.02 intake valves are withing 5hp of the Magnum heads at valve lifts in the .500" range, so the first thing to decide is which way do you want to go; stock heads with porting, 360 heads, or Magnum heads.
Hot Rod Magazine did the "Junkyard Jewel" article a couple years ago. In it, they ported out the stock 318 heads to 360 size, installed the 2.02" intake and 1.60" exhaust valves. Using the Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap intake, Mopar Performance electronic ignition, Competition Cams Xtreme Energy 268 flat tappet cam, and the 800 cfm Carter Thermoquad carb, they hit just a hair over 400HP at 6,000 rpm from a junkyard 318 with no bottom-end freshening up.
Others have hit that same number using the same equipment, but substituting Magnum heads and another carb, all in the 750-800 cfm range. Using Magnum heads requires the Magnum rocker assemblies, special length pushrods, and lifters that oil through the pushrod....my '89 roller rockers do this, so your stockers probably do this, but I'd still go with a good flat tappet, black moly coated cam from Comp Cams.
Roller cams are more costly and there are fewer grinds available, so you can slip a flat tappet cam in there (with no mods necessary other than unbolting the spider that retains the roller lifter alignment), use the longer pushrods for the flat tappet cam used in all pre-roller 318's, and still be in at half the cost of a new roller cam. If you go with 360 heads, you can use an OEM cast iron 360 intake for proper port matchup or the Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap. If you use the stock 318 heads and port them, use the standard Edelbrock Performer intake. If you go for a smaller cam, say under .450" gross lift, use a carb in the 600-750 range. The stock rocker system is very durable, and will easily handle cam lifts approaching .500" without degradation of the components.
Have fun.
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Sam
Dodge Dakota
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1/09/2006
21:36:20
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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Well thanks guys for the advise. I found a bit more on the engine. The original engine was the newer style short snout 318 shortblock casting number 53006711. An Engine Builder magazine article gave me some needed info. Seems the late 91 and the later magnum blocks are the same.Only difference is 2 oiling holes on the deck. Now problem 1: original engine needs a complete crank kit, line bore, etc. The other engine is an older LA roller block casting # 4323730. came out of a 90 Dodge D-1500. It has a long snout cam and is buildable. problem 2: To put the older 318 into the Dakota requires a mount kit from Schumacher. If I add the cost of the rebuild and mounts, I can get a direct replacement. I will not know what's in the engine until I build it, but I would at least have something to use until I can either build or decide on a major heart transplant for this beast. I do happen to have a spare 69 440 mag sitting in the corner looking for a new home.
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Dean
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2006
15:33:53
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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Your all forgetting one major thing putting 360 heads on a 318 wont work why you ask ...... well a 318 @ 8:1 with a 64cc head works ok and a 360 @ 8:1 with a 78cc head is better but a 318 with 78cc heads drops the comp.to oooooh about 6:1. you might want to stick your foot out a push cuz it will be gutless. Why do you think hot rod ported 318 heads to 360 size (so they say,you'll hit water jackets) insted of puting 360 heads on it. I also have a 91 with at one time had a 318 and now has a 360 with twin turbos. vilocity is the name of the game. Where you all think bigger is better (and sometimes it is, but not always)port volume is not always the best for you.Port vilocity can help you more depending on what you want. If your goin for a top end motor high rev and dosent fall on its face about the 1000ft mark then you need port volume, if your lookin for pullin or just a torque monster then you want port vilocity. Seeing that mine is force fed I opted for a 360 block @ 7:1 318 heads shaved to 62.75cc 2.02/1.62 valves mildly ported on the intake and heavly ported on the exaust with 14psi of boost, and will pull pretty much till you lift your right foot. And yes you did read right I ported more on the exaust side cuz as we should all know but dont the chrysler small block is a constipated noise maker. You can only make a motor breath in as much as it can push out
Dean
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2006
23:36:25
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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You might want to teleport back in time and stop Chrysler before they make such a disastrous mistake. You see, the the mid-80's Mopar cop 318 Diplomats were the only 318's that ever came from the factory with a 4V carb. The intake and heads were standard 1.88/1.60 valve 360 heads and intake......larger chambers included. CR was approx 8:1, and naturally, with the stock 318 LA cam, it had a soft low-end. The 800cfm Thermoquad was had secondaries that were restricted so they wouldn't open fully and totally kill the engine. It wasn't Mopar's best hour, but at the time, it was the best thing they had since the 360 was being phased out of the cars. You have to be aware of the mindset of the time. Some idiot in Chrysler's leadership had managed to convince the Board that V8's were on the way out, so development ceased for anything other than full-size trucks. It took a decade for them to get back into the V8 game.
Don't mix examples. The 360 head swap involves much more than just the heads. A successful swap also involves an appropriate cam to better utilize the added airflow. Also, milling the heads to gain CR, or keeping low CR, running max on the ignition timing, and still being able to run regular gas without detonation.
Now, normally-aspirated engines can only pull in a given amount of air....that much is true, but this is not the same as what it exhausts. It's a relative thing, but improving the exhaust of a factory head will help, no doubt. Intake flow is partially dictated by how well the exhaust flows, but there's this thing called a piston that pushes the exhaust out of the cylinder. The incoming mixture can only flow as well as the intake side will allow, and then it's only pushed by whatever the relative atmospheric pressure is. Now, since atmospheric pressure (1 atmosphere) is approximately 14 psi, and intake charge is measured in vacuum (negative pressure), but cranking cylinder pressure (for example) is 140-160 psi, which side has a greater push behind it? This is why intake valve area is greater than exhaust valve area. Open up the exhaust and you'll gain maybe 30HP. Pressurize the intake side, and HP skyrockets.
And Dean, the reason HOT ROD ported the 318 heads to 360 size was to prove the point that it could be done, to make due with what was available. The entire buildup was done for $2000, which fits the title of the article, "Junkyard Jewel". If you're gonna debate it, make sure you've read it.
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Dean
Dodge Dakota
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1/13/2006
08:41:07
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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Do you belive everything you read in a supermarket tabloid cuz thats kinda what you buy when you get a hot rod car craft bla bla bla. They are sellin you something you want to hear but I want you to actualy build one of their motors that they claim make so much power on pump gas, you'll find its a joke.
Now for the interceptor motor you speak of have ya ever owned one I've had many only to get the A999 trans off them. Here's what I want you to do, find one and try to put an intake on them, You'll find out that you cant. Chrysler decked thoes 908 heads almost 30 thou and then put a mild dome piston (which you cant even get anymore, without have'n them custom made) and even after all that work you said it your self it was still a turd much better then a 4 banger or v6 but compaired to what used to be built, to that thing, its a pig.
On the exaust note. Do you really think that even thoe its being pushed out by a piston its gets it all out "ever heard of back pressure". Heres how it works. When a piston is on the exaust stroke it pushes 85% of it out, in most cases their is still psi in there and when it travels to bdc its at 0 psi or even 1 inch of vac if your lucky. Then as it travels back to tdc it builds psi again not much but some.
Now we put headers on it which are ment to scavange the exaust "hopefuly we all know what scavange means" it makes a vac. in the exaust and pulls unwanted psi out. So now we have 0 psi at tdc of exaust 2-4 inch's of vac at bdc and back to 0 psi at tdc(provided you have no to little blow by) meaning that when it goes to its intake stroke it can bring in more air and fuel.
Here comes the fun one that I have tried and most havent even thought of. Now build and extream amount of vac. in the exaust lets say 15 inch. This is done by these little things we real tuners like to call an antirevershion cone's thats anti-re-ver-shion write that down. Now class what to we have this time around. Well Mr Dean we have aprox. 10 inch of vac at tdc of the exaust stroke almost 25 inch at bdc and then 8 or so at tdc of the intake stroke so when the intake valve starts to open its already under vac and pullin in air and fuel before the piston has moved woooooooo haaaaaaaa so now were confusing the motor into thinking its a forced induction motor. And when we let go of the break and flush the toilet. It pins you in the seat as it lets the ol' balls dangel in the wind, lays her ears back and your gone.
However this is very very hard on valves and bearings. But in a motor that gets rebuilt every 3 months who cares. I live by an old saying if your scared to break it dont bring it.
Class is over see yall next week
Dean
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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1/14/2006
00:31:15
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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Class, Dean's an example of someone being a legend in his own mind. His comment about getting rid of the A999 tranny is a perfect example.
"It's a relative thing,"...does that look familiar? In other words, nothing is 100%. Backpressure is a given, and engines other than all-out racing engines actually benefit from a small amount of back pressure, so get over yourself.
"Here's what I want you to do, find one and try to put an intake on them, You'll find out that you cant. Chrysler decked thoes 908 heads almost 30 thou and then put a mild dome piston (which you cant even get anymore, without have'n them custom made)" Ummm, are you saying Chryco didn't put an intake on the police engines? Do you mean to tell me that (being the big-time tuner that you claim to be) do you mean to say that you're not aware of the process of milling an intake to fit an engine with milled heads? It doesn't matter anyway, the engines in question were not milled/not decked, and they did not have domed pistons. Flat top pistons, pure and simple. Why do you think...wait, I actually used the word "think" in reference to you......oh well, why do you think the CR was sooooo loooooooowwwwwwww? Had they been "decked" as you say, with the pistons you claim, the CR would've been great.
As for the HP claims. It's not just Hot Rod magazine. Forget the other magazines, let's just cut to the core. The engineers at Mopar Performance. You probably know them on a first-name basis, big-time tuner that you are. Guys like Larry Shepard. Lemme see. Do I listen to Dean or an engineering legend like Larry Shepard. Keep in mind, Mopar tends to under-quote their crate engine specs. "High Performance Mopar" dyno'd one of those 380HP crate engines at 409HP. Can't be right though, cause according to you, that's another rag-mag. Forget that such an engine produces high 12's in a 3400lb Duster. You know better, right?
Hey Deano, try finding the "Spell Check" on your system. Then, once accomplished, try finding your own ass with both hands.
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Dean
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2006
15:39:31
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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hello all back from vac.
Dear gen1 thank you for failing my petty test and winning me $50 from a friend good lookin out. Any whos ...... upon more research I've found out you are right thoes heads werent decked like that. The first 3 of thoes motor I got came from the proving ground so they had been alterd like that, so I thought they we'er all like that. And to think i kept scrapin good heads .... Damn that makes me mad. Oh well I got good trans's out of it anyways. Oh and i forgot a word in my other statement "stock intake" as in not milled or alterd in any way
Now to go on to the rest of your junk , Oh no dont mention Larry's name now. Let me say something , the last time I listened to Larry or anyone at mopar performance for that matter It slowed me down two 10ths of a sec. But if ya want to start throwing names lets get some big ones out there like the people I talk to like John Koffell(ever heard of him) how about John Moss from Wheel to Wheel my uncle works for him I had dinner with the man nice guy lost of info even thoe he's a chevy guy. Or better yet some of my home town hero's like Mike Moran owner of the worlds fastest street car (little white camaro named Casper with an all alum. big block with 4 turbos on it maybe your read about in every mag that told him it couldnt be done) But it aint worth the mention if his name cuz he dont know nothing right . Or how about Dave Hopper pretty big in the pro 5.0 class and the guy that builds his motors Dave Petiet. And a man i tak to all the time Gary Muici that runs pro outlaw And the man i grew up next door to his shop Mark Dellard that owend Motor City Flat Head The only man On the earth to get 700 hp out of a flat head Ford, "it didnt do it for long but it did it" . So while you were at home sitting in your La-z-Boy reading hot rod wonderin how the pro's did it I was standin in their shop learnin. And I dont think i'm a legend not even in my own mind, I just hang out with them.
And for makin a duster do 12's with a crate motor "cuz ya cant build one yourself you gotta buy one" 12's are easy I got a 11 sec 2.2 turbo thats 135ci in a 2400 lbs car you do the math with your 360ci 3400lbs duster
And ass for your ass comment as soon as you take your lips from it I might be able to find it .
Dean
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2006
00:25:48
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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I'm sure I could make a Duster outrun any turbo you could come up with. Let's see. I'll just strap a shuttle rocket booster in the trunk. But wait. The heading says "Need info on 91 5.2". Try to stay on topic.
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Dean
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2006
04:52:47
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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If thats what it takes for you to beat me..... It would be a sight. Make sure you ask Larry how to do it first.
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Jon Thomsen
Dodge Dakota
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10/28/2006
23:56:36
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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ok, first off dont listen to the guys who use a bunch of 360 stuff. bump your comp ratio up to 10:1, shave heads .005, have a four barrel or the very reliable TBI. you DO NOT NEED TO USE 360 stuff to build a 318. my 59 Dodge half ton pickup has a 67 small block with 10:5:1 shaved heads .005, stock 2bbl intake and rochester.(exhuast man.) it pushed 345hp and 400ft/lbs of torque on the engine dyno. now all i have done to it is put a stock factory 4bbl 318 intake manifold on it. with a 650 edelbrock. my truck gets 18mpg in town 20 hwy. and eats big blocks for lunch. along with the 1991 dodge dakota that has a 318 in it, that i did the same thing to. but used TBI. and works just as good. no headers or aluminum anything. all mopar 318 baby. dont believe me?, all race you.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2006
16:29:08
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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BS! 245, not 345, I would believe, and that's gross HP, not at the wheel. No way you made 345hp with shaved, but otherwise stock 318 heads, stock cam, and 2V induction. Somebody is greasin' you, boy.
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Jon Thomsen
Dodge Dakota
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10/30/2006
15:27:48
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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what ever. you guys just dont know how to build a 318.nobody is greasing me. it is possible.and it sure as hell isnt 245hp. i know because i built the engine, and had it put on the dyno. it did push 345 with the 2bbl. its not hard to do. ill take a 318 over a 360 any day. dont believe me? ive got 8 318's, 3 are interseptors. and my truck now has a four barrel. you guys need to get real and relize the potential these engines have. because they are originally not suppost to put out alot of horsepower. oh and last dont call me boy. trust me ive ran down alot of 454 chevys and a 428 mustang. you just need to know how to push power out of them.
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Dean
Dodge Dakota
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10/31/2006
06:04:08
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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The funny thing is that all mighty Walt says it could only be makin 245hp when if he did a lil research he would find out that in 65 they had a 273 aval with a 4bbl@ 235hp and in 66 a 273"a hand full and I do mean a handful" (maybe like 300 total)273 4bbl (700 cfm)@ 275 hp both were the formula s package found in darts and cuda's and thoes are bone stock motors with a little bit of cam and alot more cfm. And now your sayin that a motor with 45 more cubes and the same compression ratio just cant do it. Well I'm just here to tell ya Um yeah it can be, now he prolly had a 500 cfm holly 2 bbl on it but then thoes were aval. from chrysler too. The fact of the matter is that there are such people out there that have built 500hp 318's dont belive me ask your good buddy Larry
"Thank you for your support"
I'm runnin for friggin Gov.
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Jon Thomsen
Dodge Dakota
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10/31/2006
12:27:06
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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500 horse 318. sounds good to me. i believe it can be done. im currently getting ready to build one of my interseptors. any tips.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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10/31/2006
13:46:53
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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Dean, please. You're not going to make 345hp with a stock cam, doesn't matter how big the carb is. And the HI-Perf 275hp/273 had the 700cfm carb and the cam to go with it....a solid lifter stick with 0.500" lift. Also had tube header exhaust. That's much more than "a little bit" of cam for a street mini-V8, especially the 60's grinds, and particularly in a factory-edition, street-driven vehicle. The small-port LA heads couldn't even make use of all the lift the cam delivered, or it could've been even better in HP numbers (exhaust flow becomes turbulent above 0.470" eventually becoming so bad it stalls. It's all about airflow. Even the milder 235hp 273 had more cam (at 0.415"I/ 0.0425"E) than every LA 318 out there. It could have a giant 1 barrel carb as long as it supplied the engine, and said engine had the cam and induction to make use of it. Til then, it will not happen. The only ways around this are the use of nitrous or forced induction. The stock LA318 cam delivers less than 0.400" lift, barely enough to get the job done. 400hp at 6,000rpm is possible in a street-driven, normally aspirated, if a bit rowdy, 318. NOT with stock, unmodified 318 heads. NOT with the stock cam. NOT with less than a 750 cfm carb.
But hey, you go ahead and try.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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10/31/2006
14:00:43
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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Dean for Gov. Yeah, that fits. Empty promises that you can't deliver. Yep, you're ready for politics.
Hey Jon-BOY. Can't call you boy anymore? How about MORON? That fit better? Be careful what you wish for. Look, I've been building engines since 1982, the 318 was my first, and has always been my favorite engine. The difference is, I'm not delusional about what can be done with and without mods. You won't make big power without sufficient airflow. A big carb, even a big 2-barrel, is useless if the cam is barely opening the valves. If you swap cams, you still have small port heads that will then choke the engine despite what the cam is doing, because they won't flow enough air at higher engine speeds to meet the demans of the cam. You have to address ALL the choke points. Since 360's are in the same family of engines, they were the go-to engine for HP mods on the 318. They still are. All the big power heads are 360-based. Even the Magnum heads share the same port sizes and minimum valve sizing as the LA 360. The Magnums further improve on the LA's valves with smaller stems. The ports have been improved to smooth airflow. Why? More airflow, which translates to a more efficient engine that makes more power within a given set of parameters.
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Jon Thomsen
Dodge Dakota
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10/31/2006
15:26:21
| RE: Need info on 91 5.2
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well if you call me a moron, can i call you a dick? i dont care how long you have been working on engines. i guess i should just call you puss. i have never liked 360's. ill take a 340, but no way on 360. you have to do more work to a 318 with 360 stuff on it then it is worth. obviuosly youre wrong about the air flow of the heads, because mine seems to do just fine. and if you want 318 2.02 heads that have a higher air flow, then look into the interceptor engine. which came with better heads, and intake. but it is still a stock engine. maybe i have the interceptor heads and intake on my engine? duh its still stock.
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