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candak
Dodge Dakota
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9/09/2005
21:46:00
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 Subject: why not diesel?
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although I'm still getting 20+mpg on my 91 318 Dak, I was wondering why the Chrysler/Mercedes marriage doesn't produce a good diesel engine for its midsize trucks? Oil is going nowhere but up and diesel is looking better all the time
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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9/10/2005
10:52:44
| RE: why not diesel?
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i believe they do for the Jeep Liberty.
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Gary F
Dodge Dakota
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9/10/2005
16:04:23
|  RE: why not diesel?
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daddio, he said "good" diesel engine. That Liberty CRD isn't that terrific given todays technology. Anyway, somewhere there must have been a diesel engine option for the Dakota at one time as my 2001 shop manual makes several references to one. I'd also like to see a decent 4 cyl turbo diesel that makes V8 torque in the Dakota. I'd probably give up my 4.7L.
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Kowalski
GenIII
9/11/2005
06:41:42
|  RE: why not diesel?
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Gary F - if you're going to be nitpicking about a "good" diesel engine, you can forget about the option you saw in your shop manual - too dirty to be allowed in the U.S.A.; it was never an option in the states. DC also has another different smaller diesel in the vans; I'll leave it to you to decide if its "good".
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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Craig
Dodge Dakota
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9/11/2005
12:52:50
| RE: why not diesel?
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I'm afraid Europe has the upper hand in diesel development. All of their clean and powerful motors don't see the US because our diesel fuel quality pretty much sucks compared to what is available in Europe. I'm afraid that is the main reason why the "good" diesels never make it here.
The only way I'm giving up my V6 is if they put the Cummins in the dakota. Somehow I think the odds of that happening are long at best. ;-)
I've heard rumors of an '06 diesel, using the same motor that should be available by now for the Liberty like daddio said. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that motor, besides the fact that it will probably lack all balls on the highway like the Sprinter, but fuel econemy would be good on it...
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Dakota5.2
Dodge Dakota
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9/14/2005
12:00:42
| RE: why not diesel?
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I wonder Chrysler hasn't worked with Cummins to put a diesel in the dakota. Can you imagine a Dakota 4x4 with a Cummins diesel engine?
Dakota5.2
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Kowalski
GenIII
9/14/2005
16:35:41
| RE: why not diesel?
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Yes - and it would be too nose heavy. The Dakota would need a lighter diesel.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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modain
GenIII
9/14/2005
17:10:07
|  RE: why not diesel?
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Since DC is using one of the VM diesel engines in the Liberty, why don't they use this one in the Dakota? It's not much heavier the the V8 gas engines, and probably near the same physical dimensions.
=========================================
2002 Graphite QC SLT Plus, 4.7L, NV3500, Superchips 3715, 3.92 LSD, loads o'fun...
2001 Patriot Blue Durango SLT, 4.7L, 45RFE, Superchips 3715, 3.55 Open (for now)
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Craig
Dodge Dakota
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9/14/2005
17:29:03
| RE: why not diesel?
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The cummins would certainly ruin the handling, but didn't Banks do a cummins Dakota for a salt flats speed record?
Again, the european manufacturers are reluctant to bring in their high performance clean diesels because of fuel quality concerns here. It's just not worth it to them for the warrenty expenses that will almost certainly be incurred by those motors.
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modain
GenIII
9/14/2005
17:47:06
|  RE: why not diesel?
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Again, the european manufacturers are reluctant to bring in their high performance clean diesels because of fuel quality concerns here. It's just not worth it to them for the warrenty expenses that will almost certainly be incurred by those motors.
Then why is one of their engines being offered in the Jeep Liberty for the North American market? I don't see this argument holding up in light of this fact.
=========================================
2002 Graphite QC SLT Plus, 4.7L, NV3500, Superchips 3715, 3.92 LSD, loads o'fun...
2001 Patriot Blue Durango SLT, 4.7L, 45RFE, Superchips 3715, 3.55 Open (for now)
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Craig
Dodge Dakota
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9/14/2005
20:50:14
| RE: why not diesel?
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You're right and wrong at the same time.
Yes, the liberty is being offered with a diesel, there's no arguing that, and I don't think I was trying to. BUT, there is so much more to the diesel world in Europe then there is here in the states. Many of those engines will not run properly on our diesel fuel. That is a fact. Now why they haven't gotten to putting it in the Dakota yet, I thought they were going to...
But why none of the "good" diesels from Europe don't come here is because of fuel. Like a 310 hp Audi diesel sports car. You won't see it here. Or the Volkswagon TDIs. Yes, you see that little 100 hp or so 1.9 litre, but you won't see the really hot TDIs here because of fuel issues.
Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I was reading an article a while back in Motor Age magazine that was discussing the US diesel fuel problem. It is real, I'm definately not blowing smoke on that one.
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Gary F
Dodge Dakota
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9/14/2005
23:25:46
| RE: why not diesel?
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I'm sure eventually we will see something in the Dakota. Mercedes-Benz does have a MBE904-170 that used in busses. It's 170 h.p. and 420 lbs/ft of torque, although at 869 lbs it is a little bit heavy. That's probably the biggest downside of a diesel, they are heavy and that doesn't always work well with smaller trucks like the Dakota. I work on diesels every day (International) and would just love to have one in my Dakota.
Gary F
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modain
GenIII
9/15/2005
00:17:39
| RE: why not diesel?
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Craig, I know you're not blowing smoke in the fuel issue. It's been discussed here and other places before. So I know that is a concern regarding European engines using our fuel.
My point was not complete. If VM is selling DC their top 4-cyl engine for use in America, is the v6's fuel requirement any different? If not, let's have it! (Of course, I'd like it in a 1997-2004 platform - not the utt bugly 2005+.) It's light weight, so that eliminates the issue present with using the MBZ or Cummins engines.
=========================================
2002 Graphite QC SLT Plus, 4.7L, NV3500, Superchips 3715, 3.92 LSD, loads o'fun...
2001 Patriot Blue Durango SLT, 4.7L, 45RFE, Superchips 3715, 3.55 Open (for now)
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Leviticus
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2005
01:52:12
| RE: why not diesel?
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OOooh ...me want that VM 6cyl Diesel.
Where can i get one ordered and installed in a 98? C'mon i know someone could do it. Even though it shoulda been chrysler in the first place.
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Craig
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2005
16:08:57
| RE: why not diesel?
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I don't know, but I can tell you I might seriously consider trading in my '04 if a diesel became available with a manual transmission. It would have to have some guts though...
Like I said
CUMMINS!
Ok, so it would be heavy and ruin the handling, but you would get that sound and the 325 or so horsepower.
Of coure I'm not really serous about the Cummins, but in some respects, it's a nice thing to dream about...
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Idano
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2005
16:58:04
| RE: why not diesel?
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The Cummins 5.9 diesel engine was a joint design venture with Case. They also made a 4 cyl. 3.9L engine that uses the same rods, pistons, valves, etc. as the 5.9L 6cyl. I also wonder why Dodge didn't use that 4 cyl. in the Dakota. It would be easy to get 200hp./ 400 ftlbs. torque out of that 4.
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Timberwolf
GenIII
9/15/2005
17:14:59
| RE: why not diesel?
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The problem with our diesel fuel in the U.S is that it's dirty. It doesn't much matter on older diesel engines because they use low pressure injection systems, but the new common rail diesels pressurize fuel up to 25,000 psi. The engines will burn the fuel OK. The problem is that at the high pressure, the pump turns particles in the fuel into little missiles that are trashing the injectors. GM was the first to introduce the common rail diesel to the masses in the US, and they have had alot of problems with the injectors. No one really knows a cure yet, but most speculate that using a 2 micron fuel filter will probably help immensely. If you buy a diesel Liberty, get an aftermarket filter, or make sure the OEM is a 2 micron or you will have the same problems
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Just Looking
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2005
20:00:04
| RE: why not diesel?
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I just had a Perkins diesel in Massey Ferguson tractor imported in from france or some place in Europe.
Their solution to the fuel problem was to use 2 fuel filters.
The first to catch the big junk and the second to catch some really small stuff.
The second fuel filter was somewhere around 15 microns or something... id have to take a look to be sure though.
A lot of the filters on this thing can catch small stuff. The tranny filter i think was a 20 or 30 micron filter.
If anyone wants i can find the number to the fuel filters. Just in case someone wants to fab up a mounting.
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Ted
Dodge Dakota
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9/16/2005
13:47:44
| RE: why not diesel?
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DC owns Detroit Diesel and Detroit Diesel was working on a V6. The program was scrapped because the EPA could not make up its mind on what the diesel emissions regulations were going to be down the road. Ford and GM scrapped their light duty truck diesel programs as well.
The other problem with US diesel is the high sulfer levels. The sulfer in the fuel destroys the exhaust aftertreatment devices. In 2007, US fuel will go from 350 ppm sulfer to 7 ppm. This will enable cleaner diesels in the US.
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modain
GenIII
9/16/2005
14:03:52
|  RE: why not diesel?
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I thought GM owned Detroit Diesel. At least that's the way I remember it from many years ago. When did the ownership change?
=========================================
2002 Graphite QC SLT Plus, 4.7L, NV3500, Superchips 3715, 3.92 LSD, loads o'fun...
2001 Patriot Blue Durango SLT, 4.7L, 45RFE, Superchips 3715, 3.55 Open (for now)
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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9/16/2005
14:21:26
| RE: why not diesel?
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GM, still owns them. along with Allison.
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