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MikeM
GenI
 
1/24/2009
10:35:06
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 Subject: RE: Multiple injector failures
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TC,
Given all you said, I like the idea that it's the fuel pump. My guess is that when it's malfunctioning (maybe due to a loose electrical connection? ) it puts out an erratic fuel pressure. That might be interpreted by the computer as the same symptom that caused my fuel injector codes, i.e, it thinks you are rapidly moving the throttle and the injectors cant keep up. But before I pull the pump/filter assy, I'd invest in a fuel gauge and confirm. My fuel pump failed at around 77,000 miies and it cost me over $500 to replace.
But before I do that, I'd make sure it's not just a loose electrical connector that drives the fuel pump. That makes more sense to me. My guess is that fuel pumps either work or they dont. Erratic behavior sounds more like a loose electrical connection. If you can get to the connector at the top of the fuel tank, I'd wiggle it and try to duplicate the malfunction. Same goes for the connector to the PCM.
I'll do anything to avoid hard work and spending money !!
Mike
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TC
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/25/2009
10:06:22
|  RE: Multiple injector failures
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MikeM: You hit the nail on the head. I'm going to buy a fuel pressure gauge.
This is somewhat unique because, usually, fuel pumps FAIL, they just don't go intermittent, so again, I am back to maybe a bad electrical connection. I just hate having to drop the tank twice, once to check for electrical and maybe again to replace the fuel pump assembly.
I found a delphi fuel pump assembly at Rockauto for about $215.00 with $8.00 for shipping. Problem is, you buy it you have use it. O'Reilly has the same pump for around $250.00 plus tax, but they will let me return if unused. Airtex has one for about $170.00, but I've heard that they last about a year.
Bottom Line: Check the fuel pressure and check the electrical.
I really appreciate your input. Ya'lls input on this thread has really helped me with the sanity checks.
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MikeM
GenI
1/25/2009
10:22:29
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
TC
Sounds like a plan. Looks like the fuel pump assembly includes a fuel pressure regulator. Maybe that's what can give intermittent fuel pressure. I hope if/when you swap out the pump assy. it works.
Mike
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TC
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/25/2009
12:09:56
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
FYI, I found an inexpensive Fuel Pressure tester at Harbor Freight for $12.99. Item 92699-0VGA.
It looks like it will work with the Dakota Fuel Rail.
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TC
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/31/2009
20:54:06
|  RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
Latest Update:
OK, The Dakota acted up (for a day) again. It correlated with the gas gauge sticking at below empty. I checked the fuel pressure at various speeds and the pressure read a constant 48 psi. This rules out the fuel pump.
I was given the advice of checking the ignition switch. When it acts up again, I will see if I can get the gauge to move by jiggling the switch. If the gauge moves, then I may have a faulty ignition switch. Sounds strange, but so many connections are controlled by the ignition switch.
I am also trying to find out what other systems are run on the harness that leads to the fuel pump.
Bottom Line: It is an electrical problem. I just haven't isolated where.
TC
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MikeM
GenI
2/02/2009
11:01:01
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
Well at least you narrowed it down to an electrical cause. I'd go back to the possibility of sensors like the MAP giving intermittent signals to the computer.
FYI, I managed to total my Dakota last week. Hit some ice and slammed into a utility pole. I'm fine, the airbag didnt even deploy, I had my seatbelt on and was only going maybe 20mph but that was enuf to smash in the front end and jam the radiator/fan into the front of the engine. I'm already looking at another Dakota as a replacement.
Mike
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TC
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/02/2009
19:43:22
|  RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
MikeM: I am so sorry to hear about your Dakota.
I am fortunate enough to be able to work from home when the streets are covered in ice.
Glad to hear you are OK!!!
TC
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dogdunit
GenI
2/08/2009
21:46:57
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
TC:
Thanks for referencing this thread from the one I started.
Briefly, I have a 2002 5.9L DQC 4WD. I've been having intermittent DTC's 0201-0208 for the past 2-3 years. Never noticed any performance issues so I've just been clearing them. However, the last trip I took in Aug 08, I noticed some missing when the light came on. When I got home I parked the truck until I could deal with it. The last few days, I've started to chase the problem.
Here's what the Diagnostic Manual says says about the 0201-0208 DTC's
When Monitored: With battery voltage greater than 10.4 volts, the auto shutdown relay energized, injecter pulse width less than 10ms, and engine speed less than 3000 rpm.
Set Condition: This trouble code takes .64 to 10.0 seconds to set when no inductive kick is sensed .18ms after injector turn off, and with no other injectors on.
Possible Causes: Intermittent condition, ASD relay output circuit, fuel injector, driver circuit open, driver circuit shorted, PCM.
Here'w what I've done to date:
I took MikeM's suggestion and replaced the TPS as I also had a hard starting problem on the last trip. That didn't fix the 0201-0208 DTC's, but it may have been the cause of the hard starting.
I also checked that fuel pressure was ok, but the 5.9L doesn't monitor fuel pressure anyway so that wouldn't have tripped the codes.
I had a spare ASD relay so I changed that with no effect.
I inspected the wiring and found no obvious issues, no corrosion, splits, breaks, loose connectors etc., but I haven't put a multi-meter to the circuits yet.
I put the programming back to "STOCK" with the Superchips unit. I was at min perf 87 octane setting before.
I also pulled one of the connectors off of an injector and found that the DTC set right after start up.
I've been making trips to see if I could find the condidtions that cause the codes to set. But the trips have to be under certain conditions. I found out that when you clear the DTC's it also clears the drive cyle 'Trip" count. This takes the O2 and converter sensors off line until certain drive conditions are met, then they are "completed". I don't know all the details but apparently you have to have a 40 deg temp increase and get over 160 deg and then be in a mode that will get the closed-loop mode to kick in. That appears to be only in cruise mode after some defined time or miles. (Idle mode is also closed-loop, but I've never had a 0201-0208 DTC set while idling.)
Anyway I've been getting the codes to set on a fairly consistent basis after about 15-20 miles of constant freeway speeds, starting with a cool engine.
So far I've had 0201,0203,0205,0208,0206 in that order. Never more than one code on one trip. For the first three, I cleared the codes off after each trip. After 0208, I left it on and then got a second code 0206 on the next trip.
This seems to indicate that the problem is not the injectors, as so far a single injector hasn't tripped twice. Nor does it seem to be an intermittent open/short condition in the injector drive circuits as the codes set at roughly the same place on the freeway. Finally. it seems that since on any one trip, I get only one code its not a continuous issue once a code sets, as stopping and then doing another trip without a cooldown will not set a second code.
So it seems that it has something to do with either the O2 and Coverter sensors being completed and/or the system going from a an open to a closed loop mode for the first time in a drive cycle.
BUT, I don't know enough about the PCM to explain why that might be. I get no codes relative to the sensors. BTW I have the CA system with the four O2 Sensors.
Anyway, since this thread is current, I wanted to get this out there for those that are having the same issue.
I have one direct question. Does anyone know if the setting of the 0201-0208 DTCS causes the trip counter to reset also?
Thanks
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dogdunit
GenI
2/09/2009
22:08:55
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
Hi:
OK, Here's some additional data as a follow-up to my previous post.
Without clearing the 0208 & 0206 DTC's, I made two more trips without getting another fault.
I then made a third trip and on that trip, the MIL stayed off. I went to the DMV and had them check the sensors. The oxygen and converter sensors had "completed" but the evap sensor still hadn't come on-line.
Where I live you can have only one sensor off line and still pass smog. So I went to the smog station and got the truck to pass. The two 0206/0208 DTC's were still there but since the MIL was off it was ok.
Apparently, the MIL will go off after a couple of drive cycles with no set conditions.
So, this seems to indicate that the Injector DTC's will set when the sensors first come on line after the PCM has been cleared of previously set DTC's, reprogrammed or had power removed.
I would imagine that should not happen so there must be somthing else going on but I have no idea what.
Anyway, the immediate problem was getting the truck smogged and that is solved. I'm going to set the programming back to what I had before, let the DTC's set, drive a few cycles and then see if the MIL goes off and stays off from then on. I think that the codes will completely clear after 40 drive cycles with no set conditions.
If this sequence proves true It would explain why I kept getting the Injector DTC's after every time I cleared them but at different intervals. Say if I used the truck for short trips in town, I might have gone through a couple of tanks of gas before the right drive conditions were met to get the sensors on-line. But if I went right out on the freeway and drove for a while the codes would set on that one trip if it was long enough. So clearing the codes every time seems to actually cause them to reset.
If I find out any other information, I'll post that.
Take care
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Gilbert
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/23/2009
13:53:00
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
I am having the same issue with my 2000 Dodge Dakota 4.7L V8. It will run fine for a couple of days when the computer is reset, then it starts acting up again. The garage where I took it is suggesting that it could be a faulty engine control module. I am going to look into other solutions prior to making that investement.
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Kowalski
GenIII
2/23/2009
18:26:56
| RE: Multiple injector failures
IP: Logged
Message:
So you have the same codes ? Most likely you'd get a check sum error code for a bad PCM.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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TC
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/23/2009
21:23:51
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
Gilbert: Hey i'm no expert, but I would seriously look around before dropping the bucks on an ECM.
I did that in my younger days on an Old Dodge Dynasty and it got me nowhere (except lighter in the pocketbook).
Once again, i'm no expert (and maybe that's why my Dakota's been giving me fits for the past several years).
Good Luck.
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Gilbert
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/09/2009
12:53:07
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
After following a couple of suggestions from this and other sites, It appears my problem has been fixed after replacing the throttle position sensor for $30 and a few turns of a screwdriver. It has been over a week now without any of the previous symptoms coming back.
Thanks
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TC
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/09/2009
19:52:25
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
Gilbert:
Good deal!!
I'm glad you didn't replace the ECM.
I may try replacing the TPS again on mine.
It's been a few years and one of the first things I replaced. If $30 doesn't fix it, then i've really lost nothing.
TC
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dogdunit
GenI
12/20/2009
01:11:27
| RE: Multiple injector failures
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Message:
Hi All:
I finally discovered the true reason that I was getting the injector control circuit P0201-0208 codes. It turned out to be a bad o2 sensor at the 1/1 location or the driver's side upstream location on the California system with the two pre-cats. Once that was replaced I have not gotten any of those codes again and it has been quite a while now.
I discovred it because the truck continued to run progressively worse and I started getting a lean code for the 1/1 o2 sensor along with some misfiring during normal driving. This was in addition to the injector control ciruit codes. Examination of the plugs showed fouling on the drivers side but not on the passengers side. Since each side is controlled separately by the o2 sensors, I replaced the upstream one on the driver's side and the problem went away. I replaced the passenger side one also for good measure later. Prior to the lean codes and the misfiring, there was no other indication that the o2 sensor was failing.
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