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Mar
Dodge Dakota
9/24/2001
16:17:50
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 Subject: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
Does a gibson exhaust can cause you to loose some power. I heard in a post that the gibson slowed him down. (AND IM NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT GIBSON i meen all free flow systems.) I just thought it should make more power.
Thankyou..
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AndyL
Dodge Dakota
9/25/2001
09:33:59
|  RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
I have the split rear system from gibson and it hasn't slowed me down I can tell when I step on it that I have more pick up and the sound is sweet as I have borla tips insted of the big ugly tips that everyone has when you have the shops put on exhaust.
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Knobbyman
Dodge Dakota
9/25/2001
09:36:11
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
not all shops put on ugly tips.. If you go to a crappy shop .. they'll give u crappy tips.. if you know what your buying then you'll be ok. :) just wanted to make that clear. It sounded like you don't like exhaust places very much.
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AndyL
Dodge Dakota
9/25/2001
09:45:47
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
I have 2 shops that I like but when I did my exhaust I did it with the help of my dad I ordered it off line and then it took us 1 1/2 hours to put it on and the only hard part was removing the old system unless you cut it into pieces so yes I don't like most shops and here in Mn most of the people with exh. systems have the big tips so just expressing my opp. don't mean to offend anyone thats just what I think.
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CyberWolf
Dodge Dakota
9/25/2001
16:05:45
|  RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
It is true that most cat back systems tend to rob HP from the 4.7. Especially custom built systems. Most people will argue about that until they are blue in the face. It just seems more powerful because it is louder. Also, I don't care who you are, you wont be able to tell a .3 second diffence in driving one around town. Dyno is the only real way to tell. Both Dunner and I lost power when going to a cat back system. Of course we both gained our power back in the long run. I do think the exhaust system added some power but not with the stock setup. It needed other mods to work with it. Also, the single 3" systems tend to work better than any of the others for most people. Everyone needs to get over the fact that duals are not always best.
I am only speaking about the 4.7. I don't know about how the other engines react to exhaust. Hope this helps.
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Mar
Dodge Dakota
9/25/2001
19:51:44
|  RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
Thats what i thought. What are the other mods you have to do to make it a Plus Plus. And make more power at the wheels.
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Dodgeman
Dodge Dakota
9/26/2001
01:28:59
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
Any exhaust (freeflowing)that you put on your truck will take away some initial power, mostly torque. Modern engines that have emission stuff on them need the back pressure to operate and give power. If you plan on supers or turbos then yes it is excellent to open up then exhaust, but other than that, you won't gain power with everything stock except the exhaust. You will notice the power gains in the upper RPM range, but not lower. I know this becuase in my old Cutlass I went to a high flow cat and glaspacks. I lost power until I returned to the OEM similar cat and a flowmaster muffler. I do have headers and high flow exhaust on my truck, but I plan on a super next summer.
Dodgeman
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94DAK
Dodge Dakota
9/26/2001
07:34:13
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
so if I understand correctly, and PLEASE correct me. If I add headers and a free flowing exaust I will loose HP and Torque? Now keep in mind that I was/am planning on only getting a 2 1/2" pipe on the whole thing. Any thoughts on this? Thanks
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Dodgeman
Dodge Dakota
9/27/2001
00:53:17
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
You don't necessarily loose HP, but you do loose some low end torque. You WILL notice a difference in the mid-upper RPM range, but not in the lower. I'm saying that our trucks will do the same as my cutlass did, but chances are it might. If you compliment the exhaust opening by going to a K&N Gen 2 Intake kit, then you will like the total package. But, the exhaust alone will not do much for you, so add in the extra $200 and get the intake kit. You'll love it.
Dodgeman
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Dodgeman
Dodge Dakota
9/27/2001
12:54:04
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
I got to clarify something really quick, last night I was tired when I wrote the above post. I mean you will notice a difference in the mid-upper rpm ranges, is that you will notice a nice gain. The loss comes into play in the low end. It's not a big loss, but you will notice a difference. But like I said before if you add the K&N, you should be fine and will love it all around. Stick with the 2.5" pipes so you at least keep that much. The shop that did my exhaust said a girl came in with a Rustang GT and went back to 2.5 from 3 and love it. Food for thought.
Dodgeman
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AndyL
Dodge Dakota
9/27/2001
13:58:26
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
Like I STATED IN THE 1ST MESSAGE ABOVE WHEN WE PUT ON THE NEW SYSTEM i HELD UP THE MUFFLER AND YOU LOOK STRAIGHT THROUGH IT IF YOU GET PULLED OVER FOR LOAD EXHAUST NOISE YOU CAN SAY LOOK THERES A MUFFLER UNDER MY TRUCK AND THE COP WILL LOOK AND SEE THE MUFFLER BUT HE WON'T KNOW THAT ITS JUST A STRAIGHT SHOT THROUGH SO i LIKE MY GIBSON EXHAUST AND FOR THE PRICE AND EASY INSTALL YOU CAN'T BEAT IT.
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Stoggs
Dodge Dakota
9/27/2001
22:15:35
|  RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
I've gotten a tremendous gain in power with: Gibson SS Headers, Gibson SS cat back duals, K&N, 17" R/T whls, Jet 2 chip, Jacobs ignition system and 180 stat...
This all on a '98 5.2 4X4 SLT...
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G. Cowardin
Dodge Dakota
10/08/2001
13:08:06
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
Would the best advice for an exhaust be to get headers and a cat back? I am new to the Dakota, does it have a y-pipe on the 4.7L and is it a 2-1-2 system if you go with the Gibson duals? I think a custom would be better for true duals with a crossover pipe for my purposes. I am adding a supercharger in the future and will need the high flow. Plus I am used to driving an SHO with 300hp, so any low end torque is good news, I prefer high end motors. Thanks and any info about exhaust is appreciated. "Life is too short to drive a Dodge Ram."
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Andyl
Dodge Dakota
10/08/2001
14:03:26
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
You can't put true duel exhaust because of how the gas tank sits but gibson split rear system is a good first step and easy to install your self with 1 person helping.
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HEATH
Dodge Dakota
10/08/2001
16:29:39
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
YOU WILL LOSE POWER IF YOU RUN A STRAIGHT PIPE INTEAD OF A MUFFLER!
And I bet you will if you put a low back pressure exhaust also.
fact 1/4 mile with stock muffler 15.69@86.5
1/4 mile without muffler 16.10@82.5
Looking at the trap speeds I lost power in the lower and upper range.
Everything was the same except the muffler and lack of. Please!!people stop saying "it feels faster" You won't know unless you go to the track or put it in a dyno!!!! Your just confuse others. Thank you.
STOCK 01 QUAD,4.7,AUTO,3.92,16"TIRES,K&N
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CyberWolf
Dodge Dakota
10/09/2001
09:38:29
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
Thanks Heath:
"Please!!people stop saying "it feels faster" You won't know unless you go to the track or put it in a dyno!!!! Your just confuse others. Thank you."
Well said.
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Biff
Dodge Dakota
10/13/2001
20:51:34
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
Hello everyone,
Hopefully, I can put this one to rest! I have a 2001 QC 4.7 3.55 Auto with K&N Panel Filter and Mobil 1. This summer I installed a Gibson 3" catback single pipe exhaust system. I also have a G-Tech and ran scientific before and after results. I tested the truck on the same road in almost the same weather conditions with the same amount of gas in the tank. I started by running a bunch of HP runs but thought this was kind of useless. The numbers varied too much on consecutive runs... so I tested 0-60 times. Here's what I found ... before exhaust 0-60 was 8.00 seconds. After exhaust 0 - 60 was 7.75 seconds. You do loose some torque off of the line, but it is more than made up for in the mid to upper rev range. The magic number seems to be 2000 rpms. Below this, the stock system seemed to make more torque. Above this there's more power with the Gibson. It is especially obvious going down the highway at 75 mph ~ 2300 rpms.
Hopefully, this clears it up!
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HEATH
Dodge Dakota
10/14/2001
09:02:28
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
IP: Logged
Message:
No, that does not clear it up at all!
Who was holding the stopwatch? What is a HP run?
ALMOST the same weather conditions?
On a back road?
TAKE IT TO THE TRACK OR PUT IT ON A DYNO!!!!
That is the only way you will know for sure. I tried the stopwatch thing. It does not work.
Here's a test. Sit down at home with the stopwatch and try to stop the stopwatch at 7.75 five times in a row. Not very consistant, huh. Your lucky if you come withing a tenth.
Now, try to start the stopwatch at the exact same time you take your foot off the brake and put it on the accelerator and stop the stopwatch at the exact time the needle hits 60. Too many variables. I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but you really need to do a before and after on a dyno. A 1/4 mile or 1/8 mile strip with timing lights will help too. You just have to do more runs with and without to get more consistant and accurate data.
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Biff
Dodge Dakota
10/14/2001
20:58:06
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
IP: Logged
Message:
Heath,
a) I suggest you go online and find out about G-tech. It's a precision accelerometer and it is holding the "proverbial" stopwatch. It starts when it senses movement and stops counting at precisely 60 mph if thats what you tell it to do. It's all hands off and the numbers are quite precise.
b) Almost the same weather conditions means it was within two degrees, at the same time of day, and nearly identical humidity.
c) Yes. This test was conducted on the same back road with 4 runs averaged. There's a long driveway I always started in front of from one direction and I started just after the corner going the opposite direction. So to sum up what was said above 2 runs were done from each direction on the exact same piece of back road.
d) Maybe somebody is giving you precise data and no I don't need to do anymore runs. I'm not taking it to a dyno for $55 when I have a precision accellerometer holding the stopwatch and precisely timing the 0 - 60 run. BOTTOM LINE: 0 - 60 IS 1/4 SECOND FASTER WITH GIBSON EXHAUST INSTALLED!!!
PS. It is equally annoying to try and answer someone else's post with hard factual data (which I agree there is very little of on this board regarding performance mods) and have it bashed by someone who has no idea about the testing instruments (g-tech) as it is to have everybody tell you how it "feels faster".
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Mar
Dodge Dakota
10/14/2001
23:05:36
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
IP: Logged
Message:
Well said.
What biff is saying is what most of us expected anyway. A loss of low end torque but faster 0-60.
I think i would go for it because i spend most of my time at 2000rpm and above.
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Curt
Dodge Dakota
12/16/2001
10:58:13
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
I used the Flowmaster SUV Perf with duals, 2 1/2" outlets, and yes it did lose some bottom end but at 3000 rpm's there was a noticeable difference.
Since then I have made my homemade air intake using Fernco fittings and leaving the stock air filter box and filter and that helped the most.
'00 4.7, CC auto
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dk
Dodge Dakota
12/18/2001
16:36:16
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
So if I am going to be pulling a 3000lb boat in the summer, would it be ok to still switch over to a cat-back system, and lose low end torque? I'm thinking probably not. Any input?
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FlameRed98
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/15/2002
19:20:37
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
As I understand it, if you want to make all your
power higher in the rpm band, go bigger exhaust.
if you want to pull and keep your power low, go
smaller exhaust. other ideas?
-Tim
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conig
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/16/2002
22:19:54
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
just to clear things up.
1 a g-tech is farely accurate if you have a level road and such,etc.etc but is not nearly as accurate as a dyno or track times and even track times has variables.
2. on almost ever car I've built or helped build a single exhaust made more power and the only catback I've seen proof of power gains with is the flowmaster 3inch(which was a 1.9hp gain and slowed the truck down in the quarter) y-pipe split duel systems cause turbulence at the y inself and loose power
3. back pressure DOES NOT INCREASE TORQUE exhaust velocity creates torque and when you go to a larger pipe you loose low end velocity. try putting on a strait 2 1/4 exhaust you will keep your low end but probable loose up top.
-the only reeason backpressure ever got related to torque was because it is the easiest way to increase velocity, think of a pressure nozzle on your garden hose.
-if your looking for a sound increase remove the second section of pipe behind the muffler it will mildly increase sound but keep your (presure nozzle) muffler in the system.
4. there is power in the 4.7l exhaust(or at least I beleive so) duner got a 35hp!! increse above 5000 rpm from a 3 inch cat and 15(can't remember) steady gain. keep in mind he had a flow 3inch and headers on his truck when he installed his cat which probable added to the gain. the exhaust's are probable not gaining much power because the main restriction, the cat is still in the way.
on any car when tuning the exhaust you want to start up front and work your way back,or do it all at once, it doesn't help to make one side of the hose larger if the restriction is in the middle.
just my 0.02's +-
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3cross
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/22/2002
12:34:20
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
Gibson split back. Sounds mean, Not overly loud, But has a Definite low growl. This is what I noticed compared to stock.
The low end grunt and torque felt sluggish till about 2700rpm's. Then from there it would pull real strong till almost 5500rpm's.
The pull at 3000 with pedal mashed is a BIG increase compared to stock.
I tried a custom with flow master and removed it.
The low end was a bit stronger, but nowhere near the pull on top??
Is there anyone that can advice on how to get the low end pull to match top???
I have mopar performance PCM.
jet chip / MSD ignition system.
gibson split back.. ** looks cool **
thanks
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Mills
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/22/2002
22:09:16
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
would adding an intake and throttle body help with the dual cat-back power loss? im wondering if having more air in would help
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kurt
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/25/2002
16:40:05
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
O.K. think i'm going to get my 2cents in on this one.i've got a 97 ext cab dak 4x4 with the 5.2 v8.i installed a gibson cat back duals,mopar performance K&N coldair intake,borg warner cap and rotor taylor vertex spiro pro 8mm wires autolite 3923 plugs and the robert shaw 180 t-stat. the duals made some diffrence for me i put them on first.i agree that it lost just a little off the bottm but not really enough to worry about.unless you are a diehard racer and goto the track evry weekend or race someone evrytime you get in the truck. but after i added the other things it come back to life on the bottom end.the system was fairly easy to install.i did it with just alittle help from my girlfriend in like 2 hours.so those are my thaughts on it.and these are trucks not full blown race weapons.well hope this helps and not trying to make anyone mad here or anything but just thaught id get my word in... kurt
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Rob W
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/28/2002
19:18:54
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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This is slightly off the original topic. But as far as overall exhaust flow and hp, Dodge states that the 2000 5.9 had 250hp, and the 2001 had 245hp. Can you say two more cats?
-Rob W
'01 CC RT
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DakTer
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/30/2002
14:24:37
| RE: Gibson Power Robbing
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Message:
OK, well here goes my view on this whole thing. Dual exhaust will not benefit any N/A engine. If you blow it then you could be able to use it. Single/single is the best way to go. You cannot gain any low end without anything short of a blower or NOS. A flowmaster exhaust is worthless they are stock exhausts with junk in them to make them sound good. If you go with a new exhaust and intake and some sort of chip/programming you will feel a nice gain and increased throttle response. If you have a car with over 40k miles you need new cats or to remove the old one. They get very junked up and dont flow well. If you dont get a real high perf. exhaust it is not worth the time to do it. Gtech is not a great means of checking gains/losses. I believe they have constant errors of 15%. They are a great way to find out around what you are running if you have flat nice roads. Well thats what i have found in my deal with performance junk...
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