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Jag
Dodge Dakota
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8/09/2004
11:32:49
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 Subject: 360ci are weak!
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I have an R/T, but come on. What poor engineering. I despise big displacement to begin with.
I love my truck and the torque, but what a joke it really is. 250hp out of that massive of a V8, that is really pretty pathetic. Look at the displacment/hp ratio of the Titan, Tundra, or any vehicle for that matter (3.0 - 6cyl make 200+ all day long). Pushrod engines are weak, maybe reliable, but weak.
It really is sorry to have a truck with that much engine that moves just decently. My Volvo 850R with a 2.3liter (granted it has a turbo) churns out 240hp stock.
What gives with the engines? Just poor engineering, lead crankshafts, or what?
I am sorry, but I wouldn't have introduced that motor as a R/T engine unless it would make 300hp plus in stock trim.
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what?
Dodge Dakota
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8/09/2004
13:06:32
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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400 HORSEPOWER RACING ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS (P5007958)
Horsepower 400 horsepower at 5700 rpm
Torque 400 ft.-lbs. of torque at 4500 rpm
Maximum Recommended rpm 5800 rpm
Displacement 363.5 c.i.
Bore 4.020"
Stroke 3.58"
Compression Ratio 10:1
Connecting Rods Length 6.123" w/ forged steel with high-performance rod bolts
Crankshaft Cast
Cylinder Heads Aluminum W9 (P5007179AB)
Combustion Chamber Size 52 cc
Valve Angle 15°
Intake and Exhaust Angle 17°
Intake Manifold Aluminum single plane (P4876162)
Valve Sizes 2.15" intake / 1.60" exhaust (stainless)
Rocker Arms 1.6:1 double roller pro race
Camshaft Hydraulic roller tappet
Lift .501" intake / .513" exhaust
Duration at .050" 230 intake / 234 exhaust
Valve Spring/Retainers High-performance (P4876064) and chrome-moly retainer (P4452033)
Valve Covers Die cast aluminum with breather
Block Late 360-Reman (thermal cycled)
Pistons Flat-top with coated skirt and valve relief
Distributor / Ignition High-performance electronic Ignition Kit (P3690426)
Oil Pump Melling high-volume
Oil Pan / Pickup Race with kick-out (8 quart)
Water Pump Aluminum with 6 blade ? normal rotation
Fuel Pump Eccentric High-performance moly coated
Fuel 92 octane gasoline
*see Mopar Speed Catalog for limitations and details.
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99bludak
Dodge Dakota
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8/09/2004
13:16:56
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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uuuhhhhh...
I think he was just talking about his stock R/T not a built racing engine. Of course you can build it to make more horsepower, but I am with Jag, they really should make these things pounders if they are going to slap that R/T on them!
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metalgreendak
Dodge Dakota
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8/09/2004
13:42:02
|  RE: 360ci are weak!
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Look at the compatiton an R/T is still a pretty fast truck low 15's high 14's from a stock truck that is not superchargered or turboed is actually still fast plus I have less than a $1000 in my r/t and I run in the low 14's its all in how you spend your money and its what you like if you want a DOHC or SOHC engine that makes 300 hp at 6400rpms then go for it because I will be making my 250 at 4500 and smoke you every time.
Long live the pushrod engine
Metalgreendak
00 amber fire r/t cc
Msaine custom Valve body, 50mm tb, proflow muffler, msd 8.5 wires, msd 6a, blaster ss coil,
k&n fipk, bfg kwds
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99bludak
Dodge Dakota
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8/09/2004
13:47:03
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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Agreed, metalgreendak, it is fairly cheap to mod those engines and get a good boost in power, and yeah, for stock that isn't bad without any supercharger or turbo, but you would think that DC could have bumped them up a little bit more than they did from the factory...
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Yellow99RT
Dodge Dakota
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8/09/2004
14:21:40
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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Remember, the 360's have to meet alot of emissions requirements now, so they are heavily restricted from the factory. On my R/T, I added an M1, new throttle body, PCM, Cold Air Intake, headers and a free flowing catless exhaust and it really woke my 360 up.
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Site
Dodge Dakota
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8/09/2004
15:14:25
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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It is called legacy.
Can't take a smog poluttin engine form the 70s and think you are going to get clean emissions and high horsepower. The 360s could easily attain 350 HP but would be smog city and never get allowed to be installed in a vehicle today. Hence the 4.7L. Very clean engine and will push close to 300 ponies on the HO option by 2006. ( I think it iss close to 270 now)
The HEMI is also smaller with 345HP and runs clean enough for todays EPA freeks.
Site
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99bludak
Dodge Dakota
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8/09/2004
15:59:24
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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All very good, and valid, points...
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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8/10/2004
00:08:20
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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But lacking a bit.
Marketing. People get all fuzzy over something new, especially when it's old and has a glorious history tied with the name. Just look at how the Hemi question has been embraced.
Also, industrial patents. No money in aftermarket parts for 360's when Edelbrock etc can set the standards and undercut Mopar's prices. Mopar OWNS all the Hemi rights. It's the same deal as it was for Magnum-specific parts, but more extensive. The patents are history for the 360's, and only now do you see Edelbrock coming along with Magnum-specific heads and intake. The whole reason for "remaking" the LA into the Magnum was to gain control of aftermarket parts and revenue. The LA engine already had the swirl-port cylinder heads, and, as has been mentioned, didn't need airflow for 400hp from the factory. The whole reason for it was to get some new patents issue. Granted, the heads were improved in flow, but, to stand as a new design, it'd be pretty stupid to make poorer-flowing heads.
As for making an old engine cleaner, it could be done, just as for any internal combustion engine. "They" said V8's were on the way out in the 80's. Look what happened. What's so sophisticated about the 4.7 and 5.7? Quench? The Magnum already had that. More advanced ignition? Think it couldn't be added to a 360? Please.
It's marketing, and the money.
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R/T
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
01:40:20
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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You people are crazy if your saying the R/T is a weak slow truck.
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Hurl
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
02:09:48
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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How well can your Volvo tow a 6,500 lb boat?
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Jag
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
09:10:47
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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Hurl - I didn't argue the torque...it is amazing. My point is the displacment/power ratio is incredible, probably one of the worst out there! Very inefficient....
I am talking about stock engines here...just the fact that it takes work to "wake these engines up" tells you something. Come on! These are mid-size trucks with 360s.
360ci gives you right at 5900CC ... which yields right at 24CC/HP. Some apple & oranges here...
Briggs & Stratton 6.5hp Pressure Washer - 32cc/hp
Ford 4.6 - v8(239hp) - 19cc/HP
GM 3.8 - V6 - 19cc/hp
Honda Prelude/Cive w/2.3 - 14.38cc/hp
BMW 330ci - v6 - 10cc/hp
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Jag
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
09:19:16
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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R/T - I never said the R/T was slow and weak. I am talking about the displacement/power ratio. The engine is very inefficient. Very poor on fuel and HP. I would be ashamed to make an engine that big with that kind of HP numbers
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Yellow99RT
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
18:01:50
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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With all the engines you listed, those are all very new engines. The Chrysler 360 is an old engine, Magnum or not. It was great engine in it's day but also, not a very clean one. In today's emissions controlled vehicles (federal or California) the 318 and 360 both had to be heavily restricted to meet those standards. That is why the 5.2L was replaced with the 4.7L and the 5.9L was replaced with the H.O. 4.7L and 5.7L, all three of which make more hp per cube than they engines they replace, because they are cleaner. If Ford reintroduced the 5.0L today with little to no change over the original, it'd probably be just as restricted as our 5.9's. The Crate 360 offered by Mopar makes 390 hp, but it has no room for A/C or is not highway legal in most states, if not all.
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jdb
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
19:59:12
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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The 360 magnum has been around since 93. It was designed as a high torque truck motor. The magnum has about 70 more horsepower than the previous 360. The 360 magnum had more power than the competition for many years. The magnum series engines started the horsepower wars between trucks. I think Dodge kept it around a little longer than they should because it was such a good engine. Its a shame that Dodge never developed an H.O. version of the 360 before the hemi replaced it. There is no doubt that it would have had over 300hp.
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
20:13:43
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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Yellow99RT....based on what you said, why is the V10 still in production? It is, after all, spawn of the Magnum smallblock.
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04sport
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
20:21:47
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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gen1dak, last I checked, the 10 cylinder isn't in production, excluding the Viper motor of course. Your options for a new Dodge HD truck are Cummins or Hemi
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
20:40:41
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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Aaaaaand the Viper aluminum engine came from work originally done on the iron V10 for trucks. And since the car engines tend to have even stricter emissions standards than heavy trucks, this further makes my point. They can make it work as long as they want to. It all boils down to a block with cylinders, regardless of the displacement, etc. Now, there's word that a new 6.1 liter Hemi is in the works to replace the V10. It's still a gas-burning engine. The emissions are primarily controlled by everything bolted onto any given engine.
As for the 360 Magnum's rather pale output, torque or HP, once again, it is being ignored that this is all $$$$ oriented. Every time an engine is modified in any significant way, it must be re-certified. That adds up to a lot of money. We, on this side of the fence, sit and wonder why they don't amp things up, but the bean-counters push for saving that money and throwing it into development of a new engine. Those of us who want more power can just do it later with aftermarket stuff. It sucks, but that's how it is. An engine still has pistons, still burns gas, and still spews the same exhaust fumes that must be cleaned by catalytic converters and precise computer-controlled fuel injection. Sure, improvements have been made that have cleaned up the Hemi exhaust (quench area was added...and the engine design that would never pass emissions suddenly does so), but like I said, if people didn't get caught up in the hype machine, we'd still have 318's and 360's (with improvements), and no fancy names.
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R/T
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
22:01:15
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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93? I think the basic A engine has been around since the 60's.
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Jag
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
22:52:55
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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YellowR/T - they are not all new, save the BMW I listed.
The 2.3DOHC Honda started in 92, the 4.6 in 1997(?) and the 3.8 has 10 plus years on the books.
If the engine was good "back in the day"...then shame on Dodge for failing to update it...and then badging it an R/T besides.
The engine & components on the 360 scream 300-325hp at least...
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Jag
Dodge Dakota
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8/11/2004
22:56:22
| RE: 360ci are weak!
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gen1dak - It is depressing to see the new 4.7s come in though...I dislike those all the more. A coil per cylinder...more BS emissions. You lose so much torque with that motor too...and that is the only good thing the magnums
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