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DSW
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/03/2004
00:45:10
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 Subject: RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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The grooves in the socket bearings of this Moog exploded diagram are as plain as day. You can see the entrance of the grooves on the lower portion of the bearings, they look like 1/2 circles extending up the inside of the bearing.
Websters definition of a groove is "a long narrow furrow cut with a tool". Sure looks like this joint shows 2 grooves in the lower bearing and 2 grooves in the upper bearing.
The ball joints with grooves on the ball instead of the bearing serve the some function of allowing fresh grease to be pushed into the joint from the zerk, retain and distribute grease and for reserve grease (in the boot) to circulate through the joint as it is worked back and forth by the suspension, "PHYSICAL FORCE/CONTACT". As the ball moves in the socket it will push out grease from one side and pull in grease from the other side, not a hard concept to grasp.
I think you just agreed with me on one point and have proven what I said in the first place. If the grooves in a ball joint become empty they are an area for increased pressure, friction and wear. Since The Dak ball joints (that I have seen) are not completely lubed they are bound to fail because of the lack of lubrication.
Wip, better call up Moog and tell them about thier severe design flaw and the serious liability that they are undertaking by producing such an inferior produt! LOL
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WipLash
R/T
4/03/2004
12:12:59
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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DSW,
You originally said the ball had grooves. If the ball had grooves, it would be possible for the grooves to pull grease down into the joint just like you originally posted. Because the grooves you showed in the pic are in the STATIONARY plastic/teflon part of the joint, they can not pull grease into the joint. Also, the grooves are orineted the wrong direction for pulling grease. Those grooves allow the grease to flow from the grease fitting up through the joint when you relube them. They will, however, RETAIN grease just like I mentioned in the previuos post. The part that pulls the grease down has to be the part that moves (the stem and the ball). The socket is stationary and the teflon bushing material you are referncing does not move. The grooves in that material will only retain grease. It will not pull grease from the boot back into the joint. Once the grease makes it up to the joint it has to be regreased. Hence, that's why Moog puts a grease fitting on their joints. Hence, (if what you said about OEM joint is true) the grooved ball of the OEM joint will not need a grease fitting because the grooves will pull the grease back into the joint (in theory...it obviuosly doesn't work very well).
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/03/2004
13:01:34
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Damn, this is getting old. The two parts move in relationship to each other. One person might say that the ball is stationary and the socket moves, while the next person might say that the socket is stationary and the ball moves. Either way the two parts move in relationship to each other and therefore they will work grease back and forth in and out of the joint.
It doesn't matter which part has the grooves as long as one of them has the grooves to help circulate the grease.
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WipLash
R/T
4/04/2004
00:56:50
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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The fact that Moog put a grease fitting on the joint is proof that the grooves don't pull grease in from the boot. Otherwise, they would simply pump the joint with enough grease so that there is plenty in the boot area to be sucked back down later. It doesn't work that way. The grooves would have to be horizontal and on the ball so that when it pivoted it could grab grease that is on top of it and pull it back down into the socket. The grooves in the pic are verticle and they are in the teflon wear material. They are there so that when you pump the joint with the grease gun grease will flow from bottom to top all the way arond the ball. Then they retain the grease so that it relubes itself in a sense when the joint pivots. Once the grease works its way out of the grooves and up to the boot area you have to regrease the joint. The grease won't magically flow from the boot back into the ball socket just because there are slots in the plastic. Something has to force the grease back through there. That force comes from the stroke of a grease gun pumping out 3000psi. Otherwise, the damn thing wouldn't need a grease fitting. It would magically relube itself with the magic grooves. Sounds Groovy doesn't it. LOL
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/04/2004
06:32:31
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Magic grooves, kind of catchy! I think Moog should start a marketing campaign for these ball joints since these "Magic Grooves" help circulate the grease through the joint.
Dodge didn't put a zerk on the ball joints and load the boot full of grease, therefore they are seeing a high rate of failure since fresh grease can't be pumped in the the joint and reserve grease can't be pulled in from the boot. Moog just puts the zerk on there because they know enough the add a $.05 part that will make the joint last forever.
Now that we have established that there are grooves on ball joints, why would Dodge put grooves on a sealed ball joint if the grooves don't serve to pull grease into the joint?,,,,,,,,,,,Hmmmmm They certainly didn't put them on there to increase pressure friction and wear!
Dodge wouldn't be having such a high failure rate of these parts if they had added enough grease to the ball joints n the first place.
Whoa,, STOP THE PRESSES! I think you got it man!
"Then they (grooves) retain the grease so that it relubes itself in a sense when the joint pivots"
This is exactly what the grooves do, relube the the joint from the reserve grease in the boot as the joint pivots.
Whew, man am I glad this one is over since both you and I agree that the grooves relube the joint as the joint flexes
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WipLash
R/T
4/04/2004
10:54:50
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Like I said, the grooves retain grease TEMPORARELY. The grease still has to be replaced once it works its way out of the ball socket up into the boot and the only way to do that is with a grease gun. Otherwise, no ball joint would have grease fittings.
I know all about grease grooves. I've been repairing, designing, rebuilding, and building machines for the manufacturing industry for 15 years. Grease grooves are a criticle design element that is incorporated into every machine that has Bronze and or Aluminum Bronze bushings and linear guides. They are there to RETAIN grease NOT to pull it back in once it squirts out from between the two surfaces in contact. Once the grease squirts out from between the two surfaces ( in this case the ball joint and ball socket) you have to regrease the damn thing. Hence, grease fitting. If someone ever designs a bearing that will "SUCK" the grease back into itself once the grease has squirted out we will be living on MARS because they will have done the impossible. In fact, life on Mars is more possible than a bearing sucking grease, that has squirted out, back into itself.
Furthermore, I still won't to see the ball joint that you claim has the grooves on the ball and not the plastic. There is a reason for the grooves to be in the plastic. On all machinery, the wear surfaces use dissimular metals for plain bearing (non-roller) contacts. The softer metal is ALWAYS the one with the grooves. There is a reason for that. If you put grooves in the hard metal instead of the soft metal, the hard metal would act as a knife edge and cut away at the soft metal. In the case of the ball joint, you have metal against plastic. Therefore, because the plastic is the softest part of contact surfaces in the joint, they put the grooves in it. Not to mention, it is a hell of a lot cheaper to put grooves in plastic than hardened bearing grade steel. If the OEM piece does have grooves in the ball like you claim, then that explains why they have a high rate of failure. I find it hard to believe that a company with nearly a 100 years of experience would go against all bearing design practices and put grooves in the steel ball instead of the plastic socket. I think you are full of it.
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/04/2004
15:04:38
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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I am full of it, I think you better re-think that statement since you have been WRONG so many times on this thread. David Letterman's top 10 things Wip said in this post that are WRONG and show his lack of knowledge on the subject!
10 - if it was a defect in the ball joint, you would have several trucks just needing one ball joint for the life of the truck. 99% of the owners that have replaced ball joints have replaced more than one which would indicate that it is operator related.
9 - Stick the tip of your finger in some grease and pull it out. What addhears to your finger is more than the grease needed to lubricate a ball joint
8 - There are no grooves on the ball joint to suck grease in.
7 - First of all, a groove in or around the stem and ball would cause a stress concentration point and the result would be ball joints snapping off
6 - If someone got killed from a ball joint snapping off because of grooves they put in it to suck grease then they would be leaving the door wide open for law suits.
5 - The grooves would explain why there are so many Dakotas having ball joint failures.LOL!! Your right, there is a design flaw in the joint after all!LOL!!! It's the grooves!! NOT!
4 - Therefore, if it does have grooves it is even more important to have excess grease in there. This would suggest a severe design flaw.
3 - Like I said, the grooves retain grease TEMPORARELY. The grease still has to be replaced once it works its way out of the ball socket up into the boot and the only way to do that is with a grease gun. Otherwise, no ball joint would have grease fittings.
2 - First of all, there is no grease inside the boot. The boot is there to seal off contaminents not to retain grease
1 - Therefore, if anyone finds grease inside the boot of their ball joint means there is a problem.
Now who is full of it? Hmmmmmmm
Your all over the place on this one, first it doesn't have grooves, then there are grooves. First there shouldn't be grease in the boot, then there should be grease in the boot. You can try to argue your point, but your wrong, so what's the point, to help dig a deaper hole that your going to have to explain your way out of?
Later,,,,,,,,
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uh
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/04/2004
18:51:04
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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every thime ol whip starts keyboarding he proves he has absolutely no mechanical knowledge, the best thing to do is just ignore the ignoramus until he quietly goes away
Hey whip. whats it like to argue on the internet? Is it a bit like being in the special olympics? you know after it is over you are still a retard?
Whip? has the wizard ever gotten back to you about that brain?
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WipLash
R/T
4/04/2004
20:35:57
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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DSW,
This is what started the whole groove argument. You said..
"I don't think you have ever seen the grooves on the side of the ball which help pull fresh grease into the joint."
And you are right. Neither myself nor anyone else has ever seen grooves on the ball of the a ball joint. The picture you showed of the grooves are on the Teflon surrounding the ball.
Just like I said early. No one would put grooves on the ball of the ball joint. That is asking for problems.
Until you can proove that there is or ever was a ball joint that has grooves on the ball then all your testimony has been discredited just like Consumer Reports with their conflicting surveys on cars that appear different on the outside but are actually identical on the inside (Neon Vs. PT).
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WipLash
R/T
4/04/2004
20:56:44
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
IP: Logged
Message:
DSW,
Furthermore,
Like I said once already, the grooves in the Teflon (not the ball you referenced earlier) allow the grease to pass from the grease fitting up through and around the ball of the ball joint.
Moog knows that an aftermarket ball joint without a grease fitting will not sell. Most people will pay twice as much for a ball joint that has a grease fitting than one without. It's a security thing. In order to put the grease fitting in the joint they have to have a way for the grease to flow when you pump the joint with the 3000psi grease gun. Hence, the grooves. Then the grooves help to retain the grease once it is pumped in there.
If they didn't put the grooves in the teflon wear ring around the ball, you would risk doing damage to the teflon when you tried to force the grease in with the 3000psi gun. Some guns will put out 5000psi. I have pressed bearings out with a grease gun. Therefore, the grooves are manditory on the teflon if you plan to have a grease fitting on the joint.
In all reality, teflon does not need grease. That is why they put it in there. Teflon is self lubricating. Moog puts the grease fittings on there to make people like you happy. It is "OLD SCHOOL". "NEW SCHOOL" uses high tech materials such as teflon that doesn't require lubrication.
It is a marketing strategy.
The old ball joints of the past had metal-to-metal contact inside and they required extensive lubrication and they had grease fittings.
The only reason you should need to lubricate todays high tech, teflon bearing lined ball joint is to flush contaminants out after you have been submerged in dirty water (off roading). My 4wd Dak had grease fittings. None of my 2wd's have had them.
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JES
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/05/2004
09:32:38
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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I quit. This reminds me of Monty Python's 'Search for the Holy Grail', where the one guy gets his arms cut off and keeps trying to fight.
Eric -- http://photos.yahoo.com/jes_96
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/05/2004
22:54:29
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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This keeps getting better and better. I should stop responding but find it hilarious at the unrational, bass ackwards things that are being posted (wip). Guess I have to make it David Lettermans Top 12. LOL
"In all reality, teflon does not need grease. That is why they put it in there. Teflon is self lubricating. Moog puts the grease fittings on there to make people like you happy."
I guess Dodge put grease in their ball joints to make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside since they put grease in their ball joints with teflon (or some sort of plastic) socket bearings. If grease wasn't needed they wouldn't have put grease in the joint. Too bad they didn't fill the boot with grease, we wouldn't have these things failing at 10,20,30,40K miles.
"The only reason you should need to lubricate todays high tech, teflon bearing lined ball joint is to flush contaminants out after you have been submerged in dirty water"
Why would you need to flush contaminates (water) out of a sealed ball joint if it's sealed. the Dodge ball joints are sealed relay well since they use a silicone boot with spring retainers to hold the boot closed. Nothing in, including grease, and nothing out.
As far as the grooves on the ball go, I could spend 1/2 a night finding a pic on the internet for you, or ask the Dodge dealer for a bad joint they pulled off. But I would rather leave you hanging in suspense................
And Wip's unrational response.....................
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99DAK
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/05/2004
23:21:49
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/06/2004
13:45:07
|  RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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99, that isn't the type of joint that goes in your truck man! It'll never hold 5000+lbs!! :p
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WipLash
R/T
4/06/2004
19:11:21
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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DSW,
Ask a certified DC technition why you have to flush the fluids/grease in the suspension?
If you read the service manual it will recomend that on 4WD's to change the fluids in the differentials after each time you have submerged them. The seals in our suspension and drive train is water resistant, not water proof. The Range Rover has double seals to prevent water from contaminating the lubricants.
Ask a DC tech why the front and rear end service intervals are every 24K instead of 48/60K. They assume that a 4WD will venture off road at least once in that length of time and that risk contaminating the lubricants.
Teflon bearings and wear strips are used through the food manufacturing/proces industry. With stainless steel shafts and teflon bearings the food industry can have an FDA aproved invironment that not only meet wash down requirements/rules and get long trouble free service in low rpm aplications such as conveyors and pick-&-place equipment.
You won't ever win this argument because I am the premere expert on Teflon and it's applications in mechanical, load bearing, equipment. I design machines 8 hours a day 5 days a week for the manufacturing industry and half of that is for the food industry. Teflon is the miracle polymer of the 20th century and it is seeing more applications in the food industry. Your non-stick skillet is coated with TEFLON. It is SELF LUBRICATING!!!
The small amount of grease that is put in the joint is there to help suspend any contaminants. Contaminants will embed itself into the teflon. Then you have a surface that acts like sand paper. With a grease fitting installed, you now have the ability to flush away the old contaminated grease. If there is any water in the joint the force of the grease gun pumping in grease will force the water out. The grease fitting also adds to the market value since potential customers will buy a ball joint with a grease fitting before they will one without a grease fitting.
If grease fittings were a necessaty for todays teflon line ball joints, they would have them installed. For the reasons I just stated above they are not required.
During the 90's the 4WD's had more grease fittings than the 2WD's. All of the steering and front suspension had grease fittings. This was so you could keep fresh grease circulated through the joints. Since most 2wd's never see off-road duty, they left the grease fittings out of them. When and why they started leaving the grease fittings out of the 4WD's is to anyone's guess. That was a stupid move. Most of the ball joint failures they have shown on TV are on 4WD.
NOTHING NEW THERE. Any moron with a 6th grade education will tell you a 4WD will need more grease more often than a 2WD. And, they will tell you it is because of contamination getting into the joints/bearings.
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TEFLON
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/06/2004
19:24:30
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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For all the WipLash bashers, here is evidence in his defense on Teflon in chassis components. I'm not defending Wip by any means, but I know for myself that teflon does not require lubrication. I went to the Dupont web site and found their breif description on teflon. It says that Teflon is the slipperiest solid substance know to man and has the lowest coefficient of anything to date. If what they say is true about Teflon being the slipperiest substance known to man then why would you need to put grease on it?
Sounds like Wip maybe right for once...
I can breath a sigh of relief now that I know that my ball joints that have no grease fitting really doesn't need it. I guess Dodge knows what their doing afterall.
It's a good thing DSW doesn't work for Dodge.
***************************************************
Here is the information from the Dupont site and a link....
http://www.dupont.com/teflon/automotive/app_chassis.html
The smooth solution
Benefits
If friction is your problem, let DuPont provide the smooth solution. Teflon® has one of the lowest coefficient of friction of any solid material. What’s more, for adaptable abrasion resistance, graphite, glass or a variety of other inorganic fillers can be used in combination. Teflon® has been used successfully in many practical nonlubricated and minimally lubricated mechanical systems.
Commercial Applications
Control Cable Liners
– Accelerator
– Brake
– Shifter
– Cruise control
Brake systems
– ABS interconnect hose
– Impulse hose at wheel
– Brake pad wear indicator
Chassis
– Shock absorber piston seals
– Stabilizer bar bushing
– Steering ball joint insert
– Steering assist pump piston rings
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WipLash
R/T
4/06/2004
19:35:10
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
IP: Logged
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Why do you think your teflon lined skillet doesn't need grease/oil or SPAM to prevent sticking? It is sell lubricating!!
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WipLash
R/T
4/06/2004
19:47:52
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
IP: Logged
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Also, if the factory joint has grooves in the ball instead of the teflon, I think I know why now...... Bare with me because this is a theory. I do not know this for a fact. It has had me puzzled since DSW mentioned the ball having grooves in the factory joint. Although I have been razzing him over that statement, there maybe some validity to it.
Here's why....
The ball is harder than the teflon. MUCH HARDER!!
Therefore, the steel ball can withstand a much greater force than the teflon before it fails. If you cut grooves in the teflon like the Moog joint has you weaken the load capacity of the teflon significantly. If Dodge actually did put grooves in the ball instead of the teflon then you would nearly double the load capacity of the joint. I would have to see the insides of a Gen3 joint to verify this. I'm taking DSW's word on the fact that there are grooves in the ball and not the teflon on the Dodge joint. That would be my engineering analysis as to why Dodge did this. If they radiused the grooves and polished them very smooth it would be possible to not have the grooves on the ball gouging the teflon.
Therefore, the Dodge joint would actually be more durable than the Moog joint. So why are so many Dodge joints failing you ask? You can't flush out the contaminants in the Dodge joint because there is no grease fittings. No Ball Joint is 100% water proof!
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WipLash
R/T
4/06/2004
20:36:44
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Holy Sh!T Bat MAN!!! You mean someone on this forum actually did some research before opening their mouth!! Howl-A-F^CKING-Lulia!!!
Thank you Mr. Teflon, whoever you are. I wish I had thought of looking up a Teflon Manufacturer's web page. I could have ended this discussion 5 days ago! I'm not used to being questioned about things in my field that I'm an expert on by people that know absolutely nothing about what they are talking about.
Although, you weren't actually defending me, I thank you very much....
As I was saying, teflon is SELF LUBRICATING!!! It needs no grease except to clear away debri and contaminants!!!!
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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/06/2004
23:26:40
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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The reason you are having these problems wip, is because you open your mouth way to often about things you do inadaquate research on.
I invite everyone to read this post.
http://www.dodgedakota.net/boards/v8/5892.html
Sorry, you'll have to read the whole thing to understand. I tried to provide wip with "research" on the subject of CRs credibility. He had one leg to stand on. "the PT and Neon are the same car". I gave him a logical reason for the difference between the two. He basically just overlooked my post and went on with the same old story. Not once did he try to provide any other reason for the discrepencies in CR.
I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion about CR. As I stated several times in the post.
It has occured to me that he responds most of the time without reading or understandig the post he is replying to. Just like when I was reading this thread. I could see where he has some knowledge about how mechanical things work (as he should with his claimed occupation). Most of his responses show that he is either more interested in arguing or just being right.
PS: I have inspected ball joints that have SMALL recesses in the ball. They are there to retain grease. They are not usually not deep enough to create any siginificant movement of lubricant. The movement of the ball up and down in the joint should cause the grease to move up in to the joint area. Teflon doesn't need protection from non-abrasive surfaces (food). The ball joint is hardly non-abrasive. They don't polish the ball. I won't claim to be an expert in this area. But, you might consider me one, since I have a degree in
Automotive technology and
Mechanical Engineering
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