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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
14:38:04
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 Subject: RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Jes is right. I'd rather be able to pump up a joint than to pay $900 to have a front-end job done when the grease wears out and things start breaking. This is why I own a Gen2, once again.
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Nick
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
14:54:59
|  RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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From what I understand, the entire front suspension was redesigned for the 2003 models in order to address the ball joint problem. Other than this one case of ball joint failure in a 2004 Dak, are there alot of other ball joint failures in the 03's and 04's? I'd like to think that one case of a ball joint failure in an 04 Dak doesn't mean all the 04's are bad.
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WipLash
R/T
4/01/2004
19:58:55
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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JES,
Do you believe everything you read? If so, go read the 2003 Consumer Reports Annual Auto Guide. It will tell you the 2002 PT Cruiser is one of the most reliable vehicles on the road. Then in the same report it says the Neon is next to the worse vehicle on the road as far as reliability is concerned. Like most people, Consumer reports isn't aware that these 2 vehicles are the same except for the sheet metal. All of the mechanicals are the same. Even the wheel base is the same. Now, do you believe Consumer Reports? They have been around a lot longer than any of the other so called credible automotive survey companies.
All of these Automative Reporting Publishers are nothing more than propoganda machines and they bow down to the highest bidder. They are in this to make money. Telling the truth is the least of their concern.
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Justi
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
20:59:23
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Guys, I am not with Wip nor the guys that are ripping Wip. I will say this... What you guys see on this (and other) Dakota board is NOT a percentage representation of all Dakota owners. Only people that love their truck or have problems with their truck use these boards. The people that drive their trucks as a vehicle, use it, and park it, do not frequent these boards. That would also explain why we see all the arguments, people that love something together with people disgruntled with something are not a good mix. :)
The problem is not NEARLY as wide spread as some people here would like you to believe, but, and this is a BIG but, it is obviously a problem. To say that even 10% of the Dakotas being produced have a ball joint problem I feel quite confident in saying is probably a VERY high estimate.
SOOOOO.... Yes, I hope DC releases something that will fix the problem for people that are affected, possibly me, I don't know yet. But, I'm afraid the guy that said Wip is the exception rather than the rule is flat wrong. It's not so much a case of Wip having good luck as it is those who have the problem having bad luck...
So go get a beer, soda, glass of milk whatever, and hold it up.. Here's to the guys with problems getting it fixed on DC's dime, and here's to those without problems continuing their success.
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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
21:20:27
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Wiplash, Did you even notice that Consumer Reports doesn't have any ads in their magazines. Well,they don't. Their whole objective is to give a non-biased opinion (unlike your). That's why they don't have ads.
You sure didn't learn much in college LMAO. If that's even where you got your mechanical engineering experience. I can tell by your posts that you don't do any quality research. I hope your do better at work.
HA HA if you don't start making more reasonable/productive posts I will make it ,my full time job to dis-credit you here.
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Atlantic Blue
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
22:01:37
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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I suggest that you read this Allpar article if you think Consumer Reports is such a great source of information.
Consumer Reports reliability ratings for cars, trucks, and minivans: are they reliable?
I'm not going to get into the ball joints. Obviously they are bad if so many are having problems. But Consumer Reports doesn't deserve all the credit it gets.
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WipLash
R/T
4/01/2004
22:58:22
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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RAMDAKOTA,
If the only money they made was from subscriptions they would have gone out of business 10 years ago.
They are not credible for the mere fact that they have the PT Cruiser and the Neon at totally opposite ends of the reliability scale. These are the same 2 vehicles with different sheet metal on the outside. Because they only look at raw numbers and not the actual vehicle and the people that drive them, they think the PT cruiser is a viable and worthy investment that has proven itself as a reliable vehicle with good value. Then they turn around and put the Neon on the "Not Recommended List" because of its terrible track record. The Neon and the PT aren't the only 2 twin cars in there with opposite reports. There were several like this, but the Neon and the PT were the two with the most opposite evaluations. Back in the 90's, it was even more obvious that C/R was totally clueless. They have gotten a little smarter about cars that are the same except for sheet metal and have started rating them equally. It takes a diehard Dodge enthusiast to know a PT and a Neon are the same vehicle. Most C/R analyst would not know this and it shows in their latest report. THEY ARE NOT CREDIBLE!
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
23:02:30
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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WHAT?????????????????????
Wip's post
"First of all, there is no grease inside the boot. The boot is there to seal off contaminents not to retain grease. Once grease works it's way up to the boot it is no longer lubricating the joint. The grease is inside the ball socket of the joint. It takes a very small amount of grease to lubricate a round ball that's approximately 1.25" in diameter.
Stick the tip of your finger in some grease and pull it out. What addhears to your finger is more than the grease needed to lubricate a ball joint. Anything more than that will go unused and work its way up to the boot.
Therefore, if anyone finds grease inside the boot of their ball joint means there is a problem. This is one of the reasons the manufacture quit putting grease fittings in the ball joints. Everyone has the tendency to pump grease into the joint until they see the boot swell up. This causes more harm by putting pressure on the boot. When the suspension flexes the boot ruptures and then contaminants get into the joint. Therefore, most manufacturers have quit putting grease fittings on ball joints."
I don't think you have ever seen the grooves on the side of the ball which help pull fresh grease into the joint.
Grease inside the boot indicates a problem? I guess 99.999% of the vehicles going down the road have a problem then, and the drivers are going to get cancer and get struck by lightening.
The only thing that made some sort of sence was that if you pump too much grease into a (completely sealed) boot it would rupture when the suspension flexes.
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M.O.P.A.R.
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
23:11:44
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Yes,I agree.
My guess as to the opposite reviews is that
Neon drivers tend to beat the sh#t out of them.
P/T drivers baby them.
I work on these cars all the time and P/T's are
generally clean or spotless on the inside.
While Neons are mostly filthy on the interior.
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
23:37:46
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Couple things I had to comment on.
I drive my truck every day at LEAST 40mi to and from work, 20mi each way. On my days off I generally wash it and wax it if needed. I also keep it Armor-All'ed and shiny. This both my show-truck and my regular driver. So yes, regular drivers also visit these forums.
Next is the Neon/PT thing. They ARE the same car, just a different body up top. PT owners generally baby (or pay to have it babied) their vehicle due to the decent retro look. Neons ont he other hand generally get ragged on and raced to death. They're beat-around cars, unless somebody who wants to soup one up owns one. I have a friend who owns a Neon and it is crap, but I do all his engine work and I can tell you that the problem is HIM, not the car! He rags the hell out of it and just leave crap laying inside it. Heck, I've replaced the valve-cover gasket, the plugs, the belly-pan gasket, exhaust manifolds, the engine-mount (right side), distributor/rotor/wires, dang-near every filter, brakes, and more. I mean this car gets ragged on 24/7! If you did a PT the same way, I would put $5mil on the FACT that it'd wind up int he same horrid condition. All this, and yet CR gave them opposite reports. Look at the price of each vehicle. That may have something to do with the class of owners for each vehicle.
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JES
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
08:27:15
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Wip ... what the hell are you talking about? "believe everything I read" ... ???? ... When did I say that? I read stuff. I rely on my own experience. I investigate things further. No ... I don't blindly believe everything I read. I completely missed what you were trying to get across there.
Eric
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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
12:11:03
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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allpar.com come on guys. Maybe you noticed as I did that they are a Chrysler/Dodge site. Anyway, C/R and JDP are 2 companies that base their whole existence on providing the public with responsible information. The article may make some good points. But, the article is just a bunch of opinions which the site has choosen to post in order to prove THEIR point. Which is again biased. Just because you guys say, or some Chrysler site posts an article, that C/R is not credible doesn't mean a thing. Let's see do I believe the 20 opinions posted on a biased site, or the thousands of opinions that an organization of scientists collects HMMMM. Even if C/R is crappy at their job they have done it all day every day for many years. Most people get better at their job with experience. They are developing better ways all the time to improve their data.
I really laughed when I read the one about the rusting out honda exhaust and the spirit. There's a credible story. My exhaust lasted longer than my brothers did LMAO.
The only opinion that I found any credibility to was Lloyd Klein's at the bottom of the page. Even with his grips he states "Never-the-less I remain an enthusiastic supporter".
Me personally I have to go with the people that make a living at testing products and collecting data. Not just a few biased opinions. You do not as I said before. But, that leaves you with the opionin of your friends, combined with yours to base your decisions on. Good Luck with that!
I'm gonna go over to the F150online.com forum and get some "credible" information on how Daimler/Chrysler conducts business LOL.
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
12:51:48
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Well I work at Best Buy part-time right now (extra cash is good) and I can tell you for a FACT that CR has posted some blatantly false crap. That or the consumers in our stores are backwards from the rest of the world. I can think of at LEAST six or seven things off the top of my head that were rated extremely good or bad, and they had it backwards. I don't think I can post the exact product names at the risk of losing my job at work, but I can say what happened.
1) There was a certain small DVD-player on sale for around $20 this past Christmas. It got RAVE reviews. Naturally, we had a VERY hard time keeping it stocked. The week after Christmas, we got over 80% of our stock back due to skipping, magically resetting halfway through a disc, not displaying properly on a TV (big problem was having the screen flipping, like it was at the wrong refresh rate), and other less major problems. Way to go, CR! We had four different types/brands that were all from the middle-east or Korea, and all sucked.
2) A certain gaming company produced a 64mb memory-card for the Nintendo GameCube console system. Thing got good reviews and was recomended since Nintendo only offered an 8mb card. See the catch here is that Nintendo does not release any info to third-party developers anymore! The 64mb card is reverse-engineered. What generally happens is that the card, after so many uses, tends to corrupt and be useless. Personally, I'd think you could format and just start your game over, but after it corrupts, it's gone. Just toss it into the trash. Another good one, CR!!
3) A specific brand of television (same brand as the afore mentioned DVD-player) was sold at a steal this past Christmas. It was decent. 27" TV with mono output/speakers. We sold it for around $50 if I remember correctly. Once again, this was a 'good buy' in CR. We didn't get as many back as we did their players, but we still got a hefty portion back. I think it was around 50%~60%. Anybody seeing a pattern here?
I'm not going any further, I mentioned the three big ones. In fact you can go to Best Buy and probably ask around to find out what these products are, purchase them, and see for yourselves how WRONG CR is. I didn't realize how crappy they were myself, until I started working retail. Now don't take me wrong! Sometimes CR hits the nail on the head, but taking their advice is WRONG. It'd be like me saying a Pinto is the best car ever because I found one that still ran and have put over 500k on it. Use your own judgement people, CR is BS.
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WipLash
R/T
4/02/2004
14:01:35
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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DSW,
I have taken ball joints apart. Some of the ball joints I've seen I didn't have to take apart (1970 VW) because they came apart. There are no grooves on the ball joint to suck grease in.
I can explain why. First of all, a groove in or around the stem and ball would cause a stress concentration point and the result would be ball joints snapping off. No engineer would design something like that. If someone got killed from a ball joint snapping off because of grooves they put in it to suck grease then they would be leaving the door wide open for law suits.
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JES
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
16:08:26
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Wip -- better open that Machine Design book again. The stress riser factor would be a function of the geometry of the part (balljoint body diameter, neck length and diameter, etc.), the depth of the grooves, the spacing of the grooves, and the radii of the grooves. It isn't that hard to manipulate those parameters such that the grooves would not have an exceedingly detrimental effect. Some (not all) balljoints have strategically placed grooves to aid in the circulation/placement of the grease inside the boot. I know the factory balljoints on my '76 Super Beetle did not have grooves, but the aftermarket ones for my '81 Yoda did.
Where did you say your degree was from again?
Eric
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DSW
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
16:55:31
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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This Moog ball joint has the grooves on the socket bearings instead of the ball. I couldn't find a pic online that shows grooves on the ball and threw mo old Dak ball joints away, so I could show the grooves on the ball, but ball joints do have grooves on the ball or socket to help promote better lubrication. The grooves don't interfere with the spindle of the ball, they are on the sides of the ball. A couple of small grooves on the sides of the ball won't cause stress, just provide better lubrication.
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LMFAO
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
16:59:41
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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University of CAPTAIN CRUNCH
Got my fisrt degree when I was 6 years old while eating breakfast. LOL
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Atlantic Blue
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
20:18:46
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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But did you not read this at the top of the article?
CR rated Chrysler as the most reliable of the "domestic" brands in 2001 and rated the PT Cruiser above the Honda Civic in 2002. This page can no longer be written off as "sour grapes!" [Last updated sometime in 2002] [Amusing note: CR also consistently rates Chrysler cars as more reliable than Mercedes!]
I don't care what their conclusions are, good or bad - I still don't think Consumer Reports is a good source of information. I still remember their dog food study from a few years ago, when they claimed something untrue about Iams and concluded that premium foods were no better than grocery store brands. They eventually printed a retraction, but the methods they used in that study were absurd. I know that is just one example, but I have read many of their reviews and I have never been impressed with the criteria they use to rate products, or the methods they use.
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WipLash
R/T
4/02/2004
20:21:58
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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That looks like the typical inards of about every ball joint I've ever looked at and I see no grooves. Maybe what you call a groove and what I call a groove is 2 different things. I see nothing in this joint that is going to pull grease from the boot into the ball socket. Once the grease makes it up the stem and into the boot area the only thing that will make the grease go down is physical force/contact.
Thanks for the pick anyway. At least now I know I'm not loosing my mind. I was about to replace one of my joints myself just so I could disect the joint and see the grooves your talking about. I might do it anyway.
The grooves would explain why there are so many Dakotas having ball joint failures.LOL!! Your right, there is a design flaw in the joint after all!LOL!!! It's the grooves!! NOT!
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WipLash
R/T
4/02/2004
20:31:11
| RE: Ball joints failed on an 04!
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Seriously, I have seen applications simular to a balljoint in industrial equipment that had grooves. Therefore, I believe you. I personally wouldn't put grooves in one and I doubt that any MOOG joints have them. A grease fitting would be a much better way to relube the joint than grooves.
Also, the grroves I've had experiance with in machine design was there to retain the grease, not to pull more grease in. They teach you these things in "Tool and Die Design". With grooves you can maintain a thin film across the moving surfaces until the groove becomes empty. Then the groove becomes an area of increase pressure and more friction and increased wear is the result. Therefore, if it does have grooves it is even more important to have excess grease in there. This would suggest a severe design flaw. I want to see it for myself. I've looked at a lot of ball joints in my life and I have never seen one with grooves. I guess I'll just take your word for it until I can prove it to myself.
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