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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
12:40:34
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 Subject: RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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I didn't actually do research on recalls for the two trucks. But, I read a few different magazines on a regular basis. Toyota is considered by all of them to be the king of quality. If you find a article from J.D. Power on quality Lexus and Toyota are amoung the top manufacturers. You can read this
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=749&CatID=1
and make your own decision. This study is on Vehicle reliability. J.D. Power is considered the authority in studies like this in many industries. You will notice that Chrysler/Dodge products aren't at the top in any category.
It is interesting to note that U.S. Manufacturers have pulled ahead of the Europeans in Long-Term reliability though.
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WipLash
R/T
4/01/2004
13:52:44
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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RAMDAKOTA,
Look at the people that drive Lexus and Toyotas. 99% of them have perfect driving records. Now look at your average Dodge owner. Most of them have at least one speeding ticket. Some have lost their license to drive at least once.
A coparison I like to show everybody is the 2003 Consumer Reports Annual Auto Guide. It has the 2002 PT Cruiser ranked as one of the most dependable domestic small cars. It even ranks higher than several imports. Then look at the Neon. It is ranked as almost the worst car in their comparison. This is not possible because they are the exact same car. The PT is a NEON with different sheet metal. The major difference between the 2 is the owners that buy them. Neon owners are usually very young and irresponsible. Pt ownners are usually older, more mature, more responsible, and often retired.
I love it when idiot news reporters and magazine/newspaper writers/journalist do statistical reports and publish them. It proves how stupid they are. You can't compare vehicles by brand name. You have to subcatagorize them by location, age group, ethenic group, sex, etc., etc. These factors play a larger role in determining how long a vehicle will last than the brand name. Most people who buy Dodges know this already and have owned other makes and models. They choose to drive Dodge.
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JES
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
14:01:36
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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Wip ... where do you come up with this stuff? Please cite your source of data regarding the Lexus/Toyota drivers versus Dodge drivers. I'm really interested in doing some studies of my own.
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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
14:39:32
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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Well, if you would read the study. It is not a magazine article or someones opinion it is an INDEPENDANT study. I'm not suggesting that you go out and buy one of those cars. Just that they are respectable. I was giving out information that is available to everyone and that has some credibility. You don't have any credibility really. You will notice if you read the article that even Chevrolet is rated above Chrysler/Dodge in the VDS study. I suppose they all baby their cars too LMAO. I'm sure the long list of manufacturers above Chrysler/Dodge also have customers that all treat their vehicles kindly. Anyway, make of it what you want. As I'm sure you will.
LMAO just read your post about the thousands of failing BJs on the D twins. By the way "Nice logic". Seems odd that you drive your vehicle hard a say so, but the other people that say they don't are ruining their own BJs. Again LMAO. You did a fine job of twisting that around to work for you. Try to help people here not abuse them. Didn't your folks tell you that "If you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all". Just leave it alone if you don't have something constructive to say. All your post did there was to make an inteligent conversation impossible. There has been many posts about the BJs. I had mine replaced at 37,000mi myself. It's unfortunate and I don't think that's normal. You should go and read some of my posts about it. One of them refers to a shop I frequent here most of the time just to BS. The owner has told me it is an ongoing problem with a lot of Dodge trucks. I trust him, he has been nothing but a friend to me. He has around 25 years in the auto business and has no reason to lie to me about other peoples vehicles.
Consumer Reports is also a credible institution. Again you are not. They go out of there way to report "Just the Facts". Just read how they perform their tests, you will learn something.
They also recomend almost all of the Totyotas. You can make what you want from these companies studies. That is what I said to do in fact. You don't have to believe the figures they report. But, it doesn't make much sense to go around only believing you and your friends experience. Pretty narrow poll if you ask me.
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WipLash
R/T
4/01/2004
20:54:56
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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JES,
I just gave one of the mags... Consumer Reports.
The only difference between a PT Cruiser and a Neon is the people that buy/drive them. Yet, C/R has the PT ranked way at the mid-top and the Neon ranked almost dead last. They are mechanicaly identical right down to the BALL JOINTS!
When was the last time you saw a Lexus owner at the drag strip or at the performance parts store?
RAMDAKOTA,
You don't think independent studies are biased in any shape or fashion? I'll bet money that what ever the indepent's staff drives is what they rank as the best (Lexus). None of these independent studies include age, gender, background, profession, hobbies (racing/performance), or use of these vehicles. All they get is straight numbers showing the number of break downs, what broke down, age/miles of break down, and the cost of the repairs. Never mind the fact that most Neon owners are under the age of 25 and drive more agressively than the the average 45-up PT cruiser owner. If you read all of the reports they all say the PT cruiser is more reliable than the Neon. That wipes out any and all credibility of these reports/studies because the PT and the Neon are the same vehicle.
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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
21:38:00
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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Well, if you had read how Consumer Reports does their studies you would know they are not biased. They buy vehicles off the dealers lot without letting the dealers or manufacturers knowing they are doing so. That gives them a un-prepared vehicle. Also, allows them to have the unbiased opinion. They don't have ads in their magazines just so they can provide an un-biased opinion. You have to do a little more than just read the articles in magazines to determine wether or not they are providing accurate information. Most magazines will tell you how they acquire the vehicles they test just READ. Again. another example where your education has failed you.
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
4/01/2004
22:56:21
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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Fuk this sh*t studies man!
A 1973 Plymouth Duster will STILL be on the streets in 10 year from now while a 1999 Honda / Toyota / whatever is made from sh*t recycled metal sits in the junk yard rusting!
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Atlantic Blue
Dodge Dakota
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4/01/2004
23:14:01
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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Well, since we are duplicating posts across threads anyway, here's my contribution again.
Why Consumer Reports is not a good source of information for auto reliability
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WipLash
R/T
4/01/2004
23:16:02
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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C/R does not buy all these vehicles they do reports on. You would have to buy at least 10 cars of every make and model to do a comparison/analysis that way. Look at how many trucks they would have to buy in order to do what you said. Then they would have to buy all the different trim/engine levels in order to do a viable/credible analysis. That would mean for a 2000 model Dakota they would have to buy at least 17 different trucks to get each model with each engine in both 2wd and 4wd and 5spd/automatic. The actual number of Dakotas would be over 25 just to have one of each. To do a real comparison you would need at least 4 of each of those different Dakotas for a total of 100 Dakotas. The different offerings Dodge has for the Dakota is small compared to the Siverado and the Ford f150. You would have to have over 500 F150's and Silverados to do a good comparison of them. Now you have at least another 150 different foriegn and Domestic makes and models to do the same thing with.
They would have to buy thousands of cars every year to do what you say they do. I say it is BS!
They do just like JD Power and Associates and all the others. They take surveys, they look at resale value, and they look at the number of claims for warranty work from the manufacturer.
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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
11:44:12
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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That's funny you choose a very biased site to discredit C/R. allpar.com come on guys. Maybe you noticed as I did that they are a Chrysler/Dodge site. Anyway, C/R and JDP are 2 companies that base their whole existence on providing the public with responsible information. The article may make some good points. But, the article is just a bunch of opinions which the site has choosen to post in order to prove THEIR point. Which is again biased. Just because you guys say, or some Chrysler site posts an article, that C/R is not credible doesn't mean a thing. Let's see do I believe the 20 opinions posted on a biased site, or the thousands of opinions that an organization of scientists collects HMMMM. Even if C/R is crappy at their job they have done it all day every day for many years. Most people get better at their job with experience. They are developing better ways all the time to improve their data.
I really laughed when I read the one about the rusting out honda exhaust and the spirit. There's a credible story. My exhaust lasted longer than my brothers did LMAO. Well, my 75 datsun is still here too. BIG DEAL. The only oopinion that I found any credibility to was Lloyd Klein's at the bottom of the page. Even with his grips he states "Never-the-less I remain an enthusiastic supporter".
Me personally I have to go with the people that make a living at testing products and collecting data. Not just a few biased opinions. You do not as I said before. But, that leaves you with the opionin of your friends, combined with yours to base your decisions on. Good Luck with that!
I'm gonna go over to the F150online.com forum and get some "credible" information on how Daimler/Chrysler conducts business LOL.
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JES
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
13:06:52
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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Wip -- What publication did you refer to for this statistic? I couldn't find it in CR anywhere.
"Look at the people that drive Lexus and Toyotas. 99% of them have perfect driving records. Now look at your average Dodge owner. Most of them have at least one speeding ticket. Some have lost their license to drive at least once."
I know several people (probably hundreds) that own or have owned Dodges. None of them has ever lost their license. And "99% of Lexus and Toyota owners have perfect driving records"? Not by my small sampling of the population.
What kind of grade did you get in Stat 101? And how did you ever graduate without ever being able to take Stat 201? With the kind of logic you've been exhibiting on these forums, have you ever considered running for public office?
Eric
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WipLash
R/T
4/02/2004
13:53:22
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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I said it once and I'll keep saying it.
READ LAST YEARS CR AUTO GUIDE!!!!!
It rates the PT Cruiser near the top and it rates the Neon almost DEAD LAST!
THEY ARE THE SAME CAR!!!!!
This alone discredits any information they publish. They pull half their numbers out of the sky. If they didn't, the PT and the Neon would have the same ratings because they are the same.
CR is nothing more than a money making scam. They feed off vunarable people that don't know any better like women and senior citizens. They should be shut down like MARTHA STUART!!
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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
14:29:09
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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They are built on the same chasis. Share the same drive train as well. As you said before ALL of the panels are different. The interior is also different. I can't state everything that is different about the two.
There are a lot of cars that share these components:
GMC Trucks
Chevy Trucks
VW Passat
Audi A4
Buick Regal
Pontiac Grank Prix
and so on.
I believe if you look at the C/R magazine you will find quality differences with each of the like models.
There are many reasons for this. But, I would like to point out a more logical and credible reason for the differences.
Quality Control
GMC trucks have a higher level of quality control than Chevys. That's why they cost more typically. The same is true for the Audi vs the VW and the Buick vs the Pointiac.
Now it is true that PTs and Neons were both plymouths at one time. However I'm certain they don't have the same level of quality control. Look up the prices for a PT and a Neon. A PT starts $18,000msrp and the Neon starts at $14,000msrp. I would expect some quality increase with a $4000 increase in the base price, on a car that uses the same major components.
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JES
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
15:35:19
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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Wip -- so it says this in CR? Are you sure?
"Look at the people that drive Lexus and Toyotas. 99% of them have perfect driving records. Now look at your average Dodge owner. Most of them have at least one speeding ticket. Some have lost their license to drive at least once."
You've got the logic process of a three year old.
RAMDAKOTA -- I agree totally. They may be the 'same' vehicle, but the way they are manufactured is indeed different.
Eric
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wait
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
16:22:12
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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GM's cost more because they are considered a more high end vehicle than Chevy. It has nothing to do with quality control.
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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
16:45:09
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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I hope that doesn't mean that the PT is considered "a more high end vehicle" than the Neon. If that's true then PT vs Neon is not a reasonable comparrison in reliability.
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wait
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
17:04:12
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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You are a moron using pretzel logic. I said that is why they cost more, I said nothing about reliability.
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RAMDAKOTA
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
17:57:16
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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Maybe you should read what we are talking about then. My response was in reply to the PT vs Neon reliability difference as reported by C/R by wiplash.
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wait
Dodge Dakota
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4/02/2004
18:06:45
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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"GMC trucks have a higher level of quality control than Chevys. That's why they cost more typically." Excuse me, but did you not write this? I was replying to this, but your clouded judgement got in the way.
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WipLash
R/T
4/02/2004
20:48:59
| RE: new daks get da hemi!!!!!
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JES,
YES THEY SAID THIS IN C/R!!
RAMDAKOTA,
What do you think C/R focuses 99% of their surveys on? CHASIS AND DRIVETRAIN! The PT and the NEON share ALL of these components. Even DC said they are the same. When they made the first concept of the PT they even said it was a NEON. It's no secret. They are the same vehicle except for the sheet metal. C/R does not compare sheet metal. They compare the reliability of all the CHASIS and DRIVETRAIN and Electrical components (engine, transmission, brakes, altentators, AC, suspension, etc. etc. etc.). These 2 cars share all of these parts.
If the comparison between the Neon and the PT isn't enough to convence you then read further on vehicles like the Pontiac Vibe and the Toyota Matrix. Although, they didn't hammer the Vibe as bad as they did the Neon, they did score the Vibe lower than the Matrix and these 2 vehicles even share the same sheet metal.
The list goes on. They have cars in there that share the same mechanicals all the way from front to rear and they rate them all differently. It's a total joke. Nothing they publish holds water.
The #1 reason the Neon rates so low on all the reliability reports is because it is the #1 rental car. Very few places have PT cruisers for rent. Nearly every rental car place has at least one NEON. Most have several Neons. Rental cars get abused severely! C/R and none of the other survey groups take this into consideration. All they do is publish raw numbers.
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