Forums
Forum Tools
|
 |
00:31:58 - 12/20/2024
V8 Dakotas
| From | Message |
capone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/24/2004
23:06:40
|
 Subject: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
I'm curious as to what the changes have been to the 360 since
1994. I currently have a '94 Manual 3.9L RWD Dakota, but I've
wanted to swap the engine for some time now. I know the
easiest would be to drop in a 318, but the 360 is the same price
and I do love power.
So basically I'm wondering what the best way to do this is. Is
there one year that performs better than others? If so, what else
do I need to change along with it? I also would like to know why
the MP PCM for the Ram 360 has changed through the years. I
assume I need to install the computer from the year of the
engine I buy, so which would be most compatible with my truck.
Also, I'd like to get some headers right away. Do the exhaust
ports for the Thorley 318 headers for the '94 line up with a 360?
What pulleys does the 360 use? Are they the same as the 318
with routing and everything?
I know I'll need a new tranny, since a 360 would tear up my V6
tranny pretty fast. Any reccomendations?
Sorry for all the questions and the long post, but I want to be
sure I do this right the first time. I know that you guys are the
best to get this info from. Thanks a lot.
-capone
|
gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/25/2004
18:13:26
|  RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
The 360 Magnum is essentially unchanged since it was introduced in 1993. The heads are the same as the 318 Magnum, thus the headers fit. It'll bolt right in with the same engine mounts as the 3.9/5.2. The pulleys are all the same, but the harmonic balancer is different, and the 360 will need the properly balanced flywheel or torque converter. One caveat. The 360 up to 1996, used balance weights on the torque converter. From 1996 on, the same zero-balance torque converter as the 318 is used, but the weights are on the flexplate, and the bolt pattern is different for the 'plate. If using a manual, be sure to use the appropriate flywheel for that year 360. Also, if manual, while most Magnums have cranks that are drilled for pilot bushings, it may not be finished to the proper size...check on it before you're hip-deep in an installation. From 1994 on, the cam timing is milder, but lift is the same. Early '93's had larger exhausts for better flow. The PCM's have changed over the years mostly in order to address emissions restrictions, but in 1996, things really changed with the introduction of OBDII systems...a federally mandated deal for all vehicles. These are much more complicated. 360 Magnums weren't offered for several years in the Dakota, so stick with the 1993-95 computers for 360 Ram. It'll bolt right into your system. Get any year 360 Magnum, put a decent cam in, and output is the same as any other year with the same cam.
|
capone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/25/2004
18:24:06
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
Thanks a lot, I was getting worried no one was going to respond
to my post.
So basically I can find any 360 and it will bolt straight in. I'm
going to stick with a manual, so what do I have to do about the
tranny? Could I get a new flywheel and use my current
transmission? If not, what transmission do you reccomend I
use?
Do I need a new starter or anything since I'm going from a 6 to
an 8?
Thanks again
-capone
|
gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/25/2004
22:06:13
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
First, and foremost....Just any 360 will not "bolt in." Any Magnum 360 will bolt in using your existing mount system because the Magnum V8's have the same mounting "triad" on the sides of the block. LA 360's do not have this, and you'll need the bolt-in kit to make it work. Just something to be aware of. The kit's around $300, last I saw. (http://www.engine-swaps.com).
The starter is the same.
You could use a new flywheel and your current tranny, but it's not very beefy. Meaning, it'd bolt up, but you'd shred it in short order. You'd really need to move up to the NV3500 stick for a straight-up bolt-in. The AX15 was used for V6 applications. The NV3500 is a medium duty tranny.
|
capone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/26/2004
02:11:05
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
I'm planning on getting the magnum. Should I look for the
NV3500 at some slavage yards? Would I want to get it from a
Ram or a Dak, or doesn't it matter?
Aslo, the member WipLash said this in the performance board
"The 5.9 has heavier internals than the 5.2. It revs a lot slower
than the 5.2. The 5.9 is more of a torque motor. If your running
a heavy gen3 or a Ram you'll be better off with the 5.9. If you are
in a light weight gen2 then the 5.2 would be the better choice."
What is your opinion on that? Would going witht the 5.2 maybe
be better for me? I would like to have a good towing and racing
motor.
|
gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/26/2004
15:41:13
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
You'll have no problems with the 318 internals. They are more than stout enough for 6,000+ rpm runs. At most, a good set of ARP rod bolts would be a good idea for either engine. The 318 has a fantastic rod ratio (1.85:1) which makes it a free-rev freak. The 340 shares this ratio. Why else do you think it got the knickname "Baby Hemi" when it hit the streets? The 360 rod ratio is still good, but not quite as good. It has more inherent torque by virtue of being 42 cubes bigger. In comparative buildups, the 360 shows a definite torque advantage up to around 3,000 rpm, but above this, the 318 is within a handful of hp/ft-lbs torque despite the displacement disadvantage. So, the comparisons for GI, II, III are more for stock setups. A little more converter and gear, a 318 will do fine in any of them. Naturally, it's a bit easier to have a given amount of power with limited mods in the 360. So, it comes down to a cost issue (what you start with vs what you want). My first car ('69 Charger) had a 318, modded as I went along. Ultimately, it was a re-ringed 318 with stock pistons, stock valvetrain, stock heads. CompCams High Energy 260 with matching springs. SP2P intake and Edelbrock AFB 750. Stock single point ignition. I redlined this car daily, and repeatedly. It ran best when shifted at 5,800 rpm, and I had all stock bottom-end. Man, I ran the piss outta that thing for 4 years. NEVER had any sort of failure. The 318 didn't get an iron-anvil reputation for nothin'. It truly is a Do Or Die Good Engine.
|
capone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/26/2004
19:03:52
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
Do you think I'd need to get a better transmission with the 318
too?
I want to get as much as possible out of my truck over time. I
don't mind the cost, because I'm willing to wait a little longer to
earn money, if that means I'll have a beter performing engine in
the end. I already have some rocker arms, and I'd like to add a
cam and R/T heads eventualy. Lets say that you had my truck
with those goals in mind. What would you do?
|
gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/26/2004
23:01:22
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
Hmmm, well, I've always been one to go for the excess capacity. You might run 2-3 tenths quicker in the quarter with a lighter tranny, but if it breaks 20 miles out of town with a trailer load, what good is it? I tend to sacrifice some quickness for durability. Go with the NV3500 at least. There are heavier trannies out there with generic bolt patterns for custom installations. If engine cost the same with the only other costs being the parts we mentioned for the 360, I'd probably hang with the 360. If you scored a deal on a 318, I'd still go for the NV3500. As for comparing the 318 and 360, one must remember that the 360 has gross valve lift (stock) of only .410, but the 318 has a bit of an advantage of .432 lift. With both cams being relatively lazy, the 318 will be a bit friskier. The 380hp 360 from MP will put a 3400lb Duster into the high 12's right out of the crate, so they're plenty tough enough. A milder version is a great dual purpose truck engine. Oh, the NV 3500 should be the same from a Dak or Ram. Typically, different brackets were used to accomodate a common tranny. With a better exhaust, I'd at least go with the Magnum RT cam from Mopar. From CompCams, I'd go XR258R-12. Even a '92-early'93 cam for 318 would be an improvement for the 360, but only if it were for a good price....otherwise it's just as pricey to just get a new performance cam. I wouldn't sweat the heads right away. The stock un-ported Magnum heads will make 400hp. If you're looking for that much power, you'll need hotter cams than the ones I've mentioned, not to mention heads. Also, you may want to look around for a heavier rear. The original 8 1/4 has served, literally, for over 3 decades, and is a good rear, but 1997 and up saw some healthy strengthing to the 8 1/4, and there's the 9 1/4 as well for straightforward swaps, though some go with the 8 3/4 with some extra work involved. Run your stocker while you look for more beef. Definitely get a limited slip to make the most of your available traction. Not really sure what your ultimate goals are, but that's a good streetable package. You may want an M1 intake manifold and bigger throttle body, but you can add all that as you go. It's all in what you're looking for. I'm building this 360 Magnum for my truck, but had I known then what I know now, I'd have popped for Magnum heads and just rebuilt my 318, and saved a lot of money.
|
capone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/27/2004
00:36:39
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
Thanks a ton. You've answered every question I had and cured a
lot of doubts. I'm not planning to do the swap for a while, but I
just wanted to be prepared, ya know.
Thanks again. I'll let you know how it turns out once its done.
-capone
|
Joel Petkovic
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/27/2004
10:32:18
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
gen1dak,
I'm impressed by your knowledge about Mopars so I'm going to rely on your expertise to make my upgrades. here's what I have: 1994 Dak, 4wd, 5sp, ext cab, 5.2L stock. Here is what I have purchased so far, CGS Air Intake, 1.7 Harleand Sharp roller rockers, Hypertech 180 thermosthat, Triphase module. My next item will be a MSD igition and wires. I eventually will get headers and a hp exhaust (looking for ideas here)Given that, what more would you do with the goal to be 300 streetable hp and low to mid range rpm (I don't usually exeed 5500). Budget is $1500.00.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Joel
Are my heads and cam already good enough. How about the intake manifold?
|
capone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/27/2004
11:46:06
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
I've also ordered the 1.7 rockers from HS. I'd like to know, when I have my 360, what is the largest cam I can safely install with those rockers? And which one would you reccomend, KRC, Mopar, Comp? I'd like to keep power across the entire band, but improve it in the mid to high range, and low if thats possible.
Thanks again,
-capone
|
Joel Petkovic
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/27/2004
12:15:22
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
Capone,
I don't know near as much as the others in here but I have read that if your were going to change cams then keep the 1.6 r/r, use the 1.7 with the stock cam, that way there is no worry about clearance. Maybe someone else can answer the question better.
|
gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/27/2004
22:08:37
| RE: The 360 through the years
IP: Logged
Message:
You're gonna run into clearance issues with the valve guides at .450 cam lift with stock heads and springs (bind), but that's still plenty of room for a hefty stick (with appropriate springs). Just look at all the .500+ cams offered as a bolt-in. Consider the stock gross valve lift in the 360. At .410 lift at the valve, that translates to .256 at the cam. Multipy this by 1.7 and you get .435 at the valve, but sticking with the stock cam makes for a still-lazy cam. A good all-purpose cam is the Magnum RT cam. At 1.6 ratio, it has .458/.467 gross lift. Something in that range is a good choice. Try it with the stock rockers. If you feel the need for more upper rpm power, then go with roller 1.7's instead of roller 1.6's (but go roller) and you'll have .486/.496 lift. If you've already bought roller 1.6's, you can get a hotter Magnum RT grind that approximates the standard Magnum RT cam with 1.7's. Don't confuse the Magnum RT with the cam from a Magnum RT Dakota. I'm referring to P5249549. This cam is good for 46hp when an hp air filter and PCM are used. A little less with the stock PCM. A good exhaust will only help. I've read that KRC works with CompCams for many of their cam grinds, but the specs are KRC's. You're gonna come out good no matter which brand you go with. The '92 cam for 318 is a nice little cam to boost with 1.7 rockers. The .432 lift becomes .459, and it's a little more aggressive than later units, so it's a decent stand-in for the Magnum RT cam if used with 1.7's.
Okay, I'm seeing that you both have 1.7's. You just have to factor that into any cam calculations. On CompCams standard offerings, the XR258R-12 or XR264R-14 would be the max, and either will put you at .510 lift with 1.7's. Springs? The easiest bet is to get the MP springs that are good for .525 lift. They slip right in. Get the MP locks as well. They are the correct size. I made one substitution on the retainers, though. There's one other notable engine with 5/16" valve stems. I snagged some NOS Super Stock 426 Hemi retainers for $25 and change on eBay. They fit like a glove. Mopar doesn't say much about cam size vs rocker limits. They do say the Aluminum heads need larger studs. I've read of one fellow who over-revved and stripped a rocker stud.
Joel, I'd think you'd be close to your hp number with a good exhaust added to all the rest you've listed. But then it depends on if you mean 300hp at the crank or the rear wheels. If rear wheels, you'll need more cam. Stock Magnum heads without mods will support 400hp.
KRC has a pretty informative site, but the cams they have listed would be pretty steep with 1.7's when looking at what you're both seeking. The Magnum RT would keep you under .500 lift, and the duration would still be reasonable. Intakes are a hot topic. Your engine will really take off where the stocker hits a wall if you add an M1.
Remember, all this is relative. A little more here, a bit less there. It all works out. As you see, it's harder to scale back a cam to match rockers unless you get a custom grind. The temptation is to over-cam, and get all caught up in every do-dad. They may work, but your truck begins to act like a finicky ponycar. Also. HD Pushrods!!! Just do it.
|
| | P 1 |
|
Post a reply to this message:
Username Registration: Optional
All visitors are allowed to post messages
|
|
