| From | Message |
GSMarquis
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/15/2004
18:55:26
|
 Subject: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
I changed my oil the other day and pulled out the oil baffle....to
my dismay i found about 2 handfuls of milk chocolate oil sludge
and a rusted looking platic oil cap.
I have searched this forum and read all different kinds of sludge
problems with the 4.7 and different oils and such. I had a 180
stat, H.O. cams, and 3923's.....and had switched back to the
stock 195 stat and 5224's. Do you all think this may take care
of the extreame amount of chocolate oil sludge? Iam asuming
that the sludge is a result of engine not getting up to temp.
|
TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/15/2004
19:21:15
|  RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
NO, and maybe yes. You asked two questions.
|
LookHere
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/15/2004
19:39:28
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
Look Here .......
http://www.dodgedakota.net/boards/gen/8576.html
|
R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/16/2004
00:44:30
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
There has been several debates on here concerning the 180 stat. There has been several seperate debates over the sludge. Few people have put the two together. The percentage of 4.7's sludging up seams to get higher the further north you go (colder). That would suggest that a 195 stat would help. On the other hand, people have succesfully ran the 180 stat in climates such as Phoenix, AZ with no problems. I have always owned a MOPAR (20 years) and I have NEVER had problems with sludge. But, I have always ran the 195 stat in the winter and I always use MOBILE 1 and a WIX filter.
After you clean out all the crap, I would highly recomend MOBILE 1 oil. It's more expensive, but it's worth it. I really don't think the plugs have anything to do with the sludge.
|
GSMarquis
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/16/2004
18:21:27
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
I do run mobil-1 syn 5w30.....i have always run this oil from the
5000 mile mark. I have never seen a WIX brand filter in any of
the parts stores i go in....and i go into different ones each time.
The past few oil changes i hae used a FRAM TG-16....just
happens to be the only one i can find around here except for the
K&N brand, but it cost like 15.00
|
Matt
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/16/2004
18:42:21
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
573 miles on my 04 Dakota in Minot, ND, and I have it already. My 02 Dakota never had it.
|
2daksindahous
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/16/2004
21:46:29
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
a recent thread talking about 4.7 sludge:
http://www.dodgedakota.net/boards/gen/16178.html
|
R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/16/2004
21:57:08
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
GSMarquis,
That's the exact same oil I use. Where do you live?
Matt,
Where did you find sludge at 573 miles? Did you change the oil at 573 miles? Did you actually see sludge in the oil pan?
I'm not sure if what everyone on here is calling sludge is what I call sludge. Sludge is a very thick pasty residue that has the consistancy and texture of dirty wheel bearing grease. This stuff is heavier than the oil it is in and therefore settles in dips and valleys in the engine. Typically the oil pan drain is the lowest point in the engine. In order to have "2 hand fulls" of sludge in there would mean no oil would come out of the drain when you remove the plug. Sludge will set up almost as hard as clay if left in there long enough.
Now, it is possible to have contaminated oil that looks like a slurry/milk-shake. It can be cloudy and milky in appearance. That's not sludge. It's just contaminated oil. I have never seen any engine that was in good running condition with this problem. Usually water or gas has to get in the oil to cause that. I'm at a loss here. I wish I could see for myself what everyone is complaining about.
GSMarquis,
Now for the rusty coloration of the oil filler cap: I'm assuming you meant the oil filler cap when you said plastic cap. The additives they put in the fuel leave an orange/rusty looking residue that is crusty and flakey like carbon build up except it's orange instead of gray. I know your engine doesn't have rust in it so the rusty looking residue must be coming from the fuel/combustion. To have this on the bottom of your filler cap would suggest that you have blow-by. Which is what I've been saying on this forum FOREVER. Blowby is probably the #1 cause of sludge. All engines have blow-by and therefore all engines produce sludge. The quality of the oil, condition of the engine, and your maintenance habbits will determine how much sludge builds in your engine. If the sludge is forming faster than your oil-changes will take care of, then you probably have excessive blow-by. 9 times out of 10, if you have enough blow-by to produce the amount of sludge your describing the engine will be noticeably down on power and have poor fuel economy. You can get a rough idea on your blow-by by removing the oil filler cap with the engine running. Put your hand over it and you should feel it suck your hand to the hole immediately. Then disconnect the PCV valve and watch the oil filler cap/hole. Little or no vapors should come out the oil filler. My 440 big block had such good ring/piston seal that you could unplug the PCV valve and no vapors would come out the oil filler tube. If you do have positive pressure or not enough negative pressure in your crank case, you need to start checking the compression in the cylinders to see if there is a cylinder that's out of spec. Usually, the manufacture allows + or - 10% from the highest to the lowest cylinder. I prefer 5% or less.
Sorry for the long post, but there isn't a quick answer to this problem.
|
Timberwolf
GenIII
2/18/2004
15:48:01
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
R/T is right. The frothy oil is caused, most likely, by condensation on the inside of the oil cap/filler neck. This condensation drips down into the oil and wala, chocolate shake. Sludge is a product of our modern cleaner running engines and is not an exclusive problem with Dodge. All modern engines produce it. Carbon is pumped back into the engine (EGR) and combines with the oil to form sludge. The sludge problem with the 4.7 has been that the pathways are too narrow and are easily clogged, thus limiting the oil that gets back to the top end. Some dealers and oil change specialists have a "de-sludging" machine called a power flush that circulates a cleaning solution through your engine to take care of this. A buddy of mine worked for a company that sold these things and they are slick. Go here to see them: http://www.autoprofit.com/index.htm. The milkshake oil will not cause sludge. Having water in the oil, however, will decrease it's effectiveness. The amount you are talking about is probably nothing to worry about as long as you change your oil regularly. The reason people up north have a bigger problem is that cold weather causes more condensation on warm engine parts which produces more foam. If sludge becomes bad enough it can even completely clog the pathways and the pickup for the oil pump and that's when serious damage occurs. If you flush the engine once a year, you should never have a sludge problem.
|
Vennom_800
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/19/2004
11:22:05
|  RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
The only reason this happens is from engine not reaching operation temp. on regular basis, happens to all my customers dakota, rams, and durangos that are driven less than 20 mile to and from work, if you let it get to operating temp. this will no longer be a problem
|
R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/19/2004
13:34:44
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
Well, I never had this problem and I only live 5 miles from my job. If you have to drive 20 miles to get to work you either need to move or find another job. The only time I let my engine do a proper warm up is when the temp gets down around 30 degrees or lower. The rest of the year I just jump in and go. Been doing it for 20 years with no problems with sludge or condensation. But, I also keep a 195 stat in the thing. I think a lot of these guys either are running a 180 stat or they have a 195 stat that is opening too soon.
|
Kahunagrande
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/19/2004
19:33:00
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
My '99 has a 5.2 but the sludge problem is serious and it occurs on all of the Magnum engines, V-6, 4.7, 5.2, and 5.9.
I live in Albuquerque (high desert), I drive ~25 miles to work each way. Since new I have always had more than 20 miles to work each way.
I just replaced the oil pump (2nd new pump), at 87K miles. There are known problems with the Magnum engines running hot, not cold. I was told this by the Service Director at the Detroit Dodge dealer where I had my 1st oil pump replaced back in '01 (at 40K miles).
DC will take no responsibility for this, and threatening to not buy any additional vehicles from them is meaningless, they do not care. Whether you like lawyers or not, there is a potential class action lawsuit (see bigclassactionlawsuit.com, I think).
Do a search here or at moparwebring for oil sludge or oil pressure and you will be astounded at the number of reports. Many engines have been destroyed due to this problem.
There are TSB's out for the plenum gasket (between intake and valley, 5.2 for sure, maybe others) and for the filler cap\PCV (4.7 only I believe).
I love my Dakota but will never buy another Dodge.
|
Troy Hot 4.7
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/19/2004
19:43:54
|  RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
I just bought a 2003 dokota and it is time for an oil change what do you guys recomend.
|
R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/19/2004
20:00:44
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
Like I said, I have never had this problem. My 94 had 76,000 miles on it when the oil pressure relief valve stuck open on the oil pump. I removed the pan from that engine to replace the pump and it was spotless. I didn't even have to wash it. I wiped the old oil from the pan. The only hint of sludge that the engine had was less than half a teaspoon right in front of the oil drain hole. I scraped that out with a small screw driver and wiped it clean with a shop towel.
Sludge is very heavy and thick. It is burned-up oil. Friction and heat make sludge. All engines produce friction and heat. If they didn't we wouldn't need oil to lubricate them. There will never be a class action law suit for this so-called problem because there is no problem. If you do have an engine producing excess sludge it probably needs new piston rings. BLOW-BY at the piston rings is what produces 95% of the sludge in todays modern engines (MPI). A quality motor oil like Mobile 1 is usualy all you need to keep the engine clean.
I believe that a thorough investigation of this problem will show that most, if not all, of these engines have a piston ring failure. 99% of the ring failures in new engines are due to improper break in.
|
jimbob
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/19/2004
21:07:22
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
I have a 2003 4.7 an had the sludge problem in the oil filler. I live in northern New York , with temp 20˚to 0˚ most of the winter. I stop the sludge by doing the following, replaceing that stupid clutch fan with a electric fan from a 2001 Jeep GC I got at a local wrecking yard and a 170-210˚ thermostat kit from auto zone also I installed a Mopar engine block heater and to keep my electric bill down I installed a 110volt thermostat set at 100˚ by doing these two things my truck is up to full temp. in about two or three miles and I have not had any sludge since
|
JasonP
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/19/2004
21:51:06
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
Jiffy lube found "sludge" at my first or second oil change in my ddqc4.7. I asked the dealer about it, and they said it was due to condensation, that running the engine on a long trip once in a while would prevent it.
So far, so good, no more sludge... At any rate, It is a good reason to have the dealer do the oil change, that way they can't use the "poor maintenance" excuse if there is a problem...but then again, I've always had good service from my local Dodge shop.
J.
|
R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/19/2004
23:17:15
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
The milky looking slurry that coagulates in the oil filter is a mixture of water/oil/and other contaminants. It is contaminated oil. It is NOT sludge. If you want to see sludge, poor some oil in a skillet and heat it to about 400 degrees (smoking). Leave it there for a long time until it gells and turns almost into a paste. That is sludge. The only thing that will turn oil into sludge is friction and heat. Water/condensation will not turn oil into sludge. All you have to do to remove the water from the oil is get it hot enough/long-enough to make the water evaporate. It is very simple. Water boils at 212 degrees. At about 185 degrees water evaporates rapidly. Your engine oil usually never gets over 160 degrees. It takes water longer to evaporate the cooler the engine runs and the less time the engine runs. All of you are describing contaminated oil. You will make a fool of yourself to try and bring a class action law suit againts DC for sludge when you don't have sludge. You have contamination.
Jason,
the engine block heater is probably the best solution I've heard for this problem so far. At 100 degrees, you will be promoting evaporation all night while your truck sits.
I can't imagine, for the life of me, having this much condensation in the engine. First of all, the oil is slung all over the place like a dishwasher would spray water in your dishwasher. Just the act of spraying promotes evaporation. Throw in the 160 degree temperatures of the oil and there should not be any water remaining inside this engine with just the occasional 10 mile drive into town. There is something else going on here. Like I said before, I live 5 miles from my job and I have never had this problem. I have no sludge or contamination.
|
Einstein
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/20/2004
17:40:18
|  RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
Hey R/T doesn`t oil approach 300 degrees under load and pressure at the bearings? You would think any water would go there. Or does water stay in suspension because of the high pressure? Your thoughts on this please.
|
GSMarquis
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/20/2004
18:12:35
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
ok so i changed back to a 195 stat while i changed my oil. (mobil 1 syn) The old coolant that flew out all over me when i changed the stat I trashed and added new coolant...the old coolant was still a nice bright reddish color and i saw no dirty fuild or anything like the sort. I did all of this a week ago....i checked my baffle and cap and still more milk chocolate.
My dealer said this is normal. He said there is nothing you can do about it and that it would cause no damage to any part of the engine...he also said that all new cars over the past 4-5 years do this and that if you change your oil within factory manual specs your gonna be covered under warranty.
|
R/TBlues
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/20/2004
19:50:01
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
I've spent most of my career in hydraulics design for the manufacturing industry. There are a lot of similarities between hydraulics and the oiling system of the internal combustion engine. To have a 300-degree increase in the temperature of the oil at the point of contact at the bearings would be severe. In a hydraulic pump making 3000psi you do approach those numbers. In hydraulic oil, just like engine oil, you try to stay below 160-170 and you tolerate short runs of 180-185. When you start reaching temperatures higher than that you shut everything down because something is wrong. At temperatures that high, you loose viscosity so much that the fluid/oil becomes water-like and it looses it's ability to keep the moving parts separated and you get metal-to-metal contact and scoring as a result. At a very small molecular level, there maybe a 300 degree increase, but because your talking about such a small number of particles being heated to that temperature you don't see any breaking down of the oil or temperature spikes.
Also, the dealer that told you the contaminated oil in your engine is normal/OK is full of it. Any water in the oil has the potential to do damage to the engine. Water will not keep the metal parts in the engine separated. What's even worse, water is heavier than oil. Therefore, oil floats on water. If you have water in the oil the pickup tube is going to suck it in and send it through the engine's bearings. That is a very bad scenario and it will destroy an engine. This problem is worse than sludge. Sludge will adhere and settle in low spots of the engine and will pretty much stay out of the bearings. I'm sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression about this contamination issue. This is a serious problem. It is more serious than alleged sludge problem. Sludge itself is oil. It's broken down oil. It still contains the ability to lubricate, although not very well. Water will not lubricate an engine. Water will also cause the oil to foam and render the oil incapable to lubricate the engine. There has got to be a logical reason for this phenomenon that can be easily fixed without going to the extremes of heating the engine block all night every night.
|
NoDak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
2/20/2004
19:52:00
| RE: 4.7 Oil Sludge
IP: Logged
Message:
We still ended up hearing about the thermostat. I'm so glad everybody is talking about this oil sludge problem. That keeps the number of spark plug threads down.
|
| | P 1 Next Page>> |
