Class Action Lawsuit - Dodge Dakota Forum

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DakSludge Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/06/2004 22:47:23	Subject: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: Hello all. After the frustration my sludge producing 4.7 has given me, I decided to fill out a complaint at http://www.bigclassaction.com. This may lead to nowhere, but at least my name will be on the list if anything comes of it. Apparently there is already a proposition on this site, as you can see under the alphabetical listing of "Alleged/Pending/Proposed". Maybe if we can get a class action lawsuit filed, we can get dodge to admit that this engine is seriously flawed. I still love my dakota, but I wish now I would have chosen the 99 model with the 318 instead of the 2000 4.7.
what the Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/07/2004 02:35:57	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: what the hell are you talking about? What is a "sludge producing 4.7" mean?
DUH Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/07/2004 18:20:00	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: I guess DakSluge should have written at a first grade reading level so that "What The" could understand what the hell he was talking about.
BurnedTwinkie Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/07/2004 19:02:16	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: I bought a box of Twinkies and one was slightly burned around the edges. I want to start a class action lawsuit against Hostess because the design of the Twinkie is flawed. I know because I have a Phd in Bakery Engineering Science. Also I'm a greedy fukcing turd head who needs a few bucks.
DakSludge Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/07/2004 22:47:33	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: BurnedTwinkie, I never said I wanted any money. I have spent hundreds of dollars and countless hours trying to resolve the sludge issue of this motor. What I would like is for Daimler Chrysler to amdit that there is a problem with this motor, and for the dealer to make the repairs to my engine at no cost. What the, you can see my previous post here: http://www.dodgedakota.net/boards/v8/5288.html
RTbill Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2004 03:27:33	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: WHAT THE and BURNED TWINKIE, you need to take a look at CARSURVEY.org and click on any year Dakota/Durango say 1997 to present and read the reviews for "sludge" induced premature engine failures. And it's not just the 4.7L engine either. It doesn't matter if these vehicles have 20k or 120k miles...they are dying all over Canada and USA due to what consumeraffairs.com calls (in trade terms) "a smog sludge motor"...in other words (pay attention here) the engine develops sludge! There are hundreds of identical cases of this problem documented on the internet. Most owners first realize they have this problem when the oil pressure goes to zero. I own a 2001 QC 2WD 4.7L with this problem (oil has gone to zero 4 times in 6 weeks) and the only reason it's still running is because I turn it off right away. I have now flushed this engine three times trying to clean up the "sludge." But what I need to do is pull the pan and check it out. You see, the sludge plugs the oil pumps pick-up screen. D.C. will not cover any of the repairs for this problem, citing poor maintenance, owner neglect, etc. In one case, a Durango spent 32 days in the shop during the first 27,000 miles of ownership...and needed steering rack, steering pump, brake rotors, two oil pressure sender's (wrongly installed by dealer for no oil pressure complaint) an engine flush and other warranty repairs before the engine developed a "knock" and the dealer informed the owner "due to oil sludge the car is undrivable with unrepairable damage to the engine." Class Action Suit needed here...you bet!
R/TBlues Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2004 11:52:49	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: Give it up guys. Ford had this problem from the mid 60's all the way through the 80's and nothing got done about. Pressure was put on Ford to fix the problem. Ford riveted a heat shield to the bottom of the intake to try to stop the problem. It made it worse. Oil would get trapped between the heat shield and the intake manifold. The heat cross over in the intake would then cook the oil until it turned into sludge. This would happen in less than 500 miles. Anyone who has ever owned a 70's or 80's small block Ford can tell you how fast the oil turns black. That's why Dodge didn't have this problem because Dodge used a belly pan to separate the intake-exhaust cross over from the engine. The intake actually set-up 2" above the engine block. Chevy didn't have this problem because they circulated water through the intake. I can't imagine that Dodge would design an engine that would produce sludge knowing the full history of the old designs. I maybe wrong. The only way I can see this engine having a spot hot enough to cook the oil and make sludge is maybe the pistons. I don't know. If you are having bad enough blow-by at the piston rings you will produce sludge because the "super-heated" combustion gasses escaping by the rings will cook the oil on the cylinder walls. That would suggest that the engine wasn't broken in properly. There are too many people that have owned the 4.7L's that have had no issues with sludge. I'm one of them. Of course, I FLUSH at every oil change. Another area of concern on this engine is the piston ring lands. They are a much weaker design than the old 5.2 and 5.9L engines. Dodge went to a piston design that more reassembles a Chevy piston to try and cut down on reciprocating weight. Lots of pre-ignition could cause the ring lands to fail just above the piston pin. This would cause excessive blow-by and result in excess sludge. If that is what is happening, all you have to do is remove the oil filler cap while the engine is running. If there is a lot of hot, misty, oily air blowing out of the valve cover then you have piston ring issues and not sludge issues. In fact, you should be able to cover the oil filler hole with your hand and it should suck your hand to the valve cover. If it doesn't, you have issues concerning piston ring seal. You should be able to pull the spark plugs and tell which cylinder or cylinders is blowing by. There is only one way to make oil turn to sludge and that is to over heat it with friction or heat. You obviously don't have that much friction or the engine would lock up so it must be heat.
Kowalski Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2004 15:29:04	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: That shouldn't be what is happening. The 4.7 is built to tighter tolerances, should seal quite well. With the aluminum heads, the 4.7 is not prone to "lots of preignition". Its about time Mopar came up with a lighter design for reciprocating weight; less parasitic power loss.
TexasTodd Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2004 16:44:43	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: OK, all this talk about the sludge, and the milshake, etc. On my 01 4.7, I've used Mobil 1 since 3,000 miles. Currently, it has over 6,000 on the mobil 1 in it right now. I'm pausing before sending this, to go to my garage, look at the dipstick, and the oil fill tube, and see waht's there! Back in a moment. OK, I'm back, the dipstick, looks like Shiner Bock Beer. For those that don't get that TX made beer, it's a dark amber. Then, I took the filler cap off...........drumroll please................ No milshake, snot, etc. My pressure never reads less that half, at idle, then up to the upper hash mark with r's. Reminds me of the people, who had their oil changed, and actually checked there oil level afterwards, and actually read their owners manual about the 6 quarts, and checked with the mechanic who did it, who didn't even know it took six quarts. There was an old post, about a dealership, who did this to someone! Mr. Daksludge, I'm NOT saying any of this applies to YOU! don't worry, not trying to dis you here. I'm glad I've been fortunate enough, to have no issues thus far. PS, every time I change my oil, I usually end up flushing also, the toilet that is! What is this flush about, running something thru the engine? I just change my oil, and filter. When I installed the HO cams around 20,000, miles, it looked brand new throughout.
DakSludge Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2004 17:37:46	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: I am going to pull the pan off my motor next weekend. I have been saying I am going to do this for quite a while now, but I have been busy rebuilding the engine in our minivan (bought it cheap with a knock). I can see that the owners using Mobile 1 have not had the sludge problems that plauge this motor. Once I pull the pan off, clean the lower half, and replace the pickup tube, I will have to try this synthetic myself. No sense in wasting money on this expensive oil until the motor is thuroughly cleaned. R/TBlues, I dont think the sludge is being produced by a hotspot in the motor. I believe it is being caused by condensation build up in the crankcase. I am no mechanical engineer, just a hobbying mechanic, so I really dont know, but its the best explaination I have found. All I know is that I have had these problems since about 40k miles, and it never had oil older than 5k miles. Most my oil changes have been around 3-4k and now about every 1k, trying to get the sludge out. One thing I will be looking into is maybe cutting off the end of the pickup tube and welding on a bigger one from another engine. That is if the oil pan allows this. Kind of sounds like a backwoods mod, but the strainer just seems way too small for this size motor. If anyone has tried this, or if anyone knows where I could purchase an aftermarket pickup tube, please let me know. If there is a way to upload pics to this site, I will take a few snapshots of the pickup tube and lower engine when the pan is off. I have a feeling that its going to be horrible. Anyways, thanks all for the slams and the praises. I enjoy any and all feedback.
jack Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2004 22:46:48	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: something was said about the rings my truck is a 92 dakota with the 318 my motor started using oil in 97 and was using up to a quart inbetween oil changes then this valvline high milage stuff came out and it works great it hasnt used a drop of oil sorry about spelling ive had a bit of the boos
R/TBlues Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2004 23:13:54	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: Hey Jack, had too much Jack?.... I tried that stuff in my old 1987 slant six and it did help. I've never tore down a Dodge that had sludge in it. Every Ford I ever worked on or tore down had sludge. I've only seen a few Chevies with sludge.
RTbill Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/09/2004 02:49:48	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: I too have been using Vavoline Max life motor oil in my 69' Charger R/T, 98' Chevy (no sludge) Blazer, daughter's 99' Mustang and I like it. But Max life is not going to save my 01' Dakota I'm affraid. Until I can pull the pan, I can't drive it for fear of the oil pressure dropping again. Hot spots burning engine oil, non-detergent oil and leaded gas was a cause of sludge in older engines. I've opened a number like this myself. But the current problem is different. The thinking on these newer Chrysler engines, sludging up, is that they are not being allowed to breath (ventilate) thru the PCV enough. Lack of crankcase ventilation, tighter production tolerences, as mentioned already, odd location of the PCV valve on the 4.7L engine in particular, combine to induce sludge buildup. People have been looking into the problem...just not D.C. They aren't doing a thing about it! And responsible owner's of these vehicles are paying dearly for it. Owners in Canada seem to have more engine failure's due to the extreme cold weather there. Greater condensation...that stands to reason. I think once I clean the pan out, replace the oil pump & pickup tube and upper ball joints (yes, mine are shot too) I'm selling the Dakota and going back to Chevy. The Charger, however, stays with me until death due us part! Too bad Dodge can't make them like that anymore.
Enjoy. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/09/2004 05:33:36	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: You think sludge is a problem, I hope you enjoy your knocky knocky pistons. Chevy...Like a knock.
Kahunagrande Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/09/2004 10:25:48	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: I too have registered for "sludge" class action suit. At 87K miles I have installed the 3rd oil pump on my '99 Dakota 5.2. There are 2 known problems with the 5.2, the first is the plenum gasket under the intake manifold, the second is that ALL Magnum engines run warm and break down oil (according to Dodge technician who replaced my first oilpump, at 40K miles). The owner's manual clearly identifies 2 service intervals based on driving types. DO NOT, UNDER ANY CICRCUMSTANCES CHOOSE THE LONGER INTERVAL. DC will take NO RESPONSIBILITY, even though they are fully aware of these problems. After my first $1000 repair at 40K miles I called DC and got the runaround. "We cannot be held responsible if the wrong service interval was selected." Even though I drive exactly as described in the extended service interval description. I spent the last 4 days replacing the oil pump with a high-volume unit, and cleaned 3/4 cup of burnt carbon particles andsludge from the oil pan. I flush every other oil change, and cannot go more than 3000 miles on an oil change without the the oil pressure dropping to zero above 2000RPM. Switching to full synthetics with the new pump, and hoping to hell it works. If you haven't had any of these problems that is great, lucky you. Do a search on this site for "oil pump" or "sludge" before you jump to conclusions and say that is isolated. DC knows about it, and will not do anything unless forced to, it is that simple. Can you say ball-joints?????
DakSludge Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/09/2004 19:27:51	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: Thanks for the support Kahunagrande. Please let me know how the synthetics work out for you. BTW, where did you get your high volume oil pump?
DakToBasics Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/09/2004 19:59:48	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: Don't bother doing the oil pan if your not going to do the lifter valley. I work for Chevrolet and our Pre-Owned lot sold a 318 Durango with 30,000 miles on the clock. It came into the shop for an oil pressure problem the day before it was delivered. We removed the pan and cleaned out a large amount of sludge then buttoned it back up. After idling for 30 minutes the pressure dropped again. We again removed the pan and found another large accumulation of sludge under the oil pump pick-up. When we removed the intake and valve covers I couldn't believe what I was seeing. My technician removed at least a half gallon of sludge from the upper end alone.There was a good 1/4 thick film on the bottom of the intake. Now I don't know what intervals the engine was serviced on but I do know there is obviously a problem. It ended being an 11 hour bill to the used car dept. so you can immagine how much it would have cost to have it done by a shop being an outsider! Try about $1000, and after just 30,000 miles? I'd hate to see what my 94 has hidden under its intake after 98,000!
R/TBlues Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/09/2004 20:29:21	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: Like I said on several different occasions, I have tinkered and worked on Dodges all my life and I have never tore one down that had any sludge at all in them. I've tore down a 2.2L 4bangers, 225/6, 383, 361, 318, 360, 440, and a 400. I've have not pulled the oil pan off the 4.7L yet. Since I can go 2500 miles before my oil starts turning amber I doubt that I have any sludge. At 3000 miles you can still see through my oil. Sometimes I go 4-5000 miles on my oil. At about 4500 miles my oil turns dark enough that you can't see through it. The gas mileage and the oil pressure both drop about the same time I hit the 4-4,500mile mark. I can't explain it. I really would like to tear into one of these engines that's sludging up. I would be willing to bet money it is a piston ring failure. If it was the PCV valve causing the problem, then everyone would have sludge issues. This is too isolated of a problem. Of course, I've never had a ball joint go bad either. Go figure.
Kahunagrande Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/10/2004 10:02:16	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: DakSludge, I bought a Melling(sp?) high volume oil pump from Autozone, ~$45. The Dodge oil pan gasket was $47, go figure. I think the Part Number is 72HV. Uses the stock pickup tube (be sure and clean it, I soaked it in de-greaser and checked the flow afterward). I have a '99 Ext Cab 4x4 so it took some time to drop the front axle, disconnect the exhaust, remove the starter and tranny dust cover, pull the fan shroud bolts, support from above (new engine hoist\shop crane, thanks Harbor Freight) , remove the motor mount through bolts, remove the left and right side motor to tranny brackets, and raise the engine more than 3 inches; just to be able to remove the F'ing oil pan. Then you remove the oil pump and re-install everything in reverse order. Current status is no leaks, oil pressure is about 30psi at idle when warm and responds as it should (goes up when RPMs go up which is the opposite of what I used to see everytime the darn thing would have it's little problem). R/T Blues, as I said in my post, I'm glad YOU don't have this problem, but it is by no means isolated, there are hundreds of posts on this board alone about sludge, and the makings of a class action law suit. I have had several PCV valves replaced on or near schedule so doubt it is that. As for a bad piston ring, I will check for suction against the filler cap opening but a bad ring at 30K miles??? That would be really bad but I would have expected a real failure now almost 60K miles later. I would go after DC even now at 87K miles if it turned out to be a ring, that is unconscionable. My particulars are that this problem began to occur at about 30K miles. The Dealer I bought the truck from (new, stickered for ~$28K) replaced the plenum gasket under warranty. Then it started to occur with alarming regularity soon after my warranty expired. When it occurred on the road when I moved to a new job (~40K miles) I took it to a dealer there (Detroit) and they asked if I was following the extended service interval based on my problem description, I said yes, they said flatly "You can't follow Schedule B, it will sludge up the engine. They then asked for $1000 and 2 days to fix the truck but warned me it "might never be right". They stated verbally that DC was aware of the problem and would do nothing about. They cleaned the pan and replaced the pump, pickup tube and sending unit. I contacted DC Customer Service and was blamed for following the extended service interval, even though the driving patterns described in the Owner's Manual clearly matched my driving patterns (no towing, no offroading, no extended idling, no stop and go). At the time I was a technical writer for a major defense contractor and I know a thing or two about manuals. When I suggested I would be buying 2 new cars within the next couple years and that I would guarantee that I would NOT be spending that $60-70K for ANY DC product if they did not make good on the repair, they simply said "We can not be held responsible if the wrong service interval was selected." I will NEVER own another DC product, and will not buy one for my wife. It is not a quality issue, it is not a brand loyalty issue, it is a service issue, and it is about taking responsibility for known defects. I really like my Dakota. At 87K miles (turned yesterday) it has been, with the exception of the oil pump\sludge issue and a couple nitnoid failures, a very good, very fun vehicle but I will not do business with a company that operates the way that DC has on this and unfortunately several other issues e.g., ball-joints, oil foaming, etc.
R/TBlues Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/10/2004 21:42:19	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: Since I've always used Mobile 1 it's probably one of the reasons I've never had this problem. I also flush. There's a lot of debate over that also. I'm not even sure if flushing actually works. All I can say is that I've never experienced any of these problems. Maybe it's luck. Maybe it's my maintenance habbits. Some people will argue that what I do to my engine with the synthetics and the flushing causes more harm than good. I wish I had owned a digital camera 20 years ago. I sure would like to have had pictures of all the engines I've tore down and built. I could be a one of those info-mercial guys for Mobile 1. I've never even had to bore an engine because of excessive ring groove or scarring. I gave Dodge the credit for using higher nickle castings than Chevy or Ford in their blocks. Maybe the oil company is who I need to give the credit to instead of Dodge? Mobile 1 for life.
spdrcr59 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/10/2004 22:08:15	RE: Class Action Lawsuit IP: Logged Message: i have a 94 cc 5.2 285,000 miles, no sludge here, the gauge stays at 3/4 all the time, hot or cold, no work done to the engine yet. change oil at 3,000 miles, soon to change to 5.9, not spending money on 285,000 mile engine
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