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throttle body
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2004
23:38:23
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 Subject: throttle body spacers
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I just installed a Double Helix throttle body spacer and am wondering if the whistling sound I hear coming from it is normal?
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dakata
Dodge Dakota
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1/11/2004
23:44:23
|  RE: throttle body spacers
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yes kinda like a turbo...its perfectly normal and your A-OK...
DRew
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daveyz
Dodge Dakota
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1/15/2004
22:12:43
| RE: throttle body spacers
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But do the spacers actually do any good?
In the real world, torque, mileage, power?
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bakindak
Dodge Dakota
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1/15/2004
22:24:18
| RE: throttle body spacers
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On a magnum engine, no is the general rule of thumb. On a premagnum yes. Reason is that a TB spacer is to allow extra time for fuel and air to swirl/mix together So being that the fuel injectors for a magnum are almost at the valve opening it isnt mixing any fuel and air so all it does is doing is making a cool turbo like whistle.
On a premagnum with a TBI setup, the injectors are located right about the butterflies and inject downwards through the TB. So by putting a spacer in there it allows for more time for fuel/air to mix resulting in more power to be produced. same as a carb spacer
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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1/15/2004
23:26:47
| RE: throttle body spacers
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They make really cool paperweights. "back" nailed it. The spacer creates a larger plenum volume which is usually a power maker on OEM "wet" manifolds. Pre-Magnums are wet, Magnums are dry.
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.DOC.
Dodge Dakota
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1/16/2004
19:30:11
| RE: throttle body spacers
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Gen!dak,
Where you stated 'larger plenum volume', I think what you meant to say was turbulence. The spacer provides no additional volume to speak of, but does break up the laminar characteristics of the incomming air, allowing it to suspend and transport the fuel more evenly.
At least that is how I understand that particular item to function,...Doc
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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1/16/2004
20:16:09
| RE: throttle body spacers
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I think I meant to say exactly what I said, professor. If that's how they work (making turbulence) then that explains the whistle it makes. Get this straight. Turbulence does no good in the intake tract. It's great for improving the burn characteristics within a cylinder, but this swirl-induced turbulence is a result of the cylinder head design. If you have turbulence in the intake tract you are LOSING POWER. Turbulence restricts flow. If turbulence were the answer, why are TBI's and carbs polished and teflon-coated to improve flow? You're confusing fuel atomization with turbulence. The increased volume of the intake tract helps straighten on the airway thus REDUCING turbulence (and maintaing a smoother flow) in wet manifolds. Smoother flow (now pay attention here) reduces fuel drop-out, which makes for a better mixture. The LARGER plenum volumes caused by spacers on wet manifolds allows the engine to breathe better at higher RPM's. Hmmm, maybe I didn't really mean to say all this either.
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4.7L Owner
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
00:17:47
| RE: throttle body spacers
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Hmmmm...very impressive explanations...
So what you are saying is that it really depends on whether you have a Magnum engine or not, because of the placement of the fuel injectors?
I have a 4.7L V8...where are the fuel injectors on it? Would a throttle body spacer do anything productive on the 4.7L engine?
...if not, then why in the world do companies make the throttle body spacer for the 4.7L?
Thanks in advance.
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RealTruth
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
16:09:38
| RE: throttle body spacers
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I put an Air Raid spacer on my 97 - 5.2L v8 when I installed their intake about 2 years ago. Wasn't aware the spacer wasn't a good thing on Mag engines at that time. I'll be removing it to see what the difference is when I get time. Real curious to see what happens.
If it is a benefit on the 4.7L and if I see a benefit in removing it from mine - interested in buying it??
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RealTruth
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
16:45:16
| RE: throttle body spacers
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The PowerAid is removed - luckily I was cleaning up the other day and was wondering what some long black bolts I found went to....they were the original throttle body bolts....yipee
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TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
20:36:00
|  RE: throttle body spacers
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4.7 owner,
you said:
...if not, then why in the world do companies make the throttle body spacer for the 4.7L?
Ever heard of capatalism?
Why? Because if they advertise it falsely, but not so false that they're actually breaking the law, many mislead customers, will spend outrageous, hideous amounts of money, and then actually believe that it works.
These things have been dynoed on a 4.7 before, NOT by me, I never got one, LOL, but they have been posted somewhere, and low and behold, Nadda, nope, no gains.
Need an expensive paperweight?
Kind like that 'full synthetic' oil, that is actually, all dino oil, and they can do that legally too!
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
20:39:38
| RE: throttle body spacers
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Everything is pretty much multi-point injection these days, and that puts the injectors near the point of the intake where it meets the head, so the intake charge gets a nice mist of fuel right into the intake port and at the intake valve, and that's a long way from where the spacer fits. With multi-point systems, the throttle body just passes air. The pre-Magnum fuel injection systems were a single point (be they single or dual injectors), and essentially, the throttle bodies functioned as an electronic carburetor-style air and fuel metering system.
4.7L Owner.... P.T. Barnum said it best, and I've quoted him before. Why make a useless product? $$$ "There's a sucker born every minute." It's easy to get drawn in by all the hype. It's happened to everyone (yes, me too) at some point or another, especially when the sales pitch says exactly what you want to hear. Live and learn, and ALWAYS question anything that even begins to sound too good to be true.....especially when you'll be paying for it.
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Greg
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
20:54:33
| RE: throttle body spacers
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TexasTodd, the throttle body spacer that I got for $40.00 off of some company on ebay did help a lot with low end torque, highway fuel milleage "2mpg" and higher end rpm get up and go... I have a 99' 3.9l V6...
Another thing about your syn statement ---
Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Amsoil, and Red Line are infact all real 100% synthetic motor oil's, unlike all the others that claim to be...
You might want to be a little more specific or do better research before you start making statements about things such as these...
Oh by the way the Tornado helped a whole whole lot for take offs esspecially when the stock magnum cam kicks in at 2800 to 3000rpm's and around 1 to 2 more miles to the gallon... I currently am getting 25 to 28mpg out on the highway with current mods in my truck... I only get around 20 to 22mpg just driving around... I haven't found out mpg gains yet with Holley throttle body, but so far am getting better there as well with more hp and torque with no bogging so far in lower rpm's as some stated I would have...
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.DOC.
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
00:06:28
|  RE: throttle body spacers
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Gen1dak,
I was not and am not trying to flaming you, so cool your jets and back of the sarcasm.
Follows is based on what my understanding is of physics and applied car innards.
Turbulence, within limits, can provide a better suspension medium than laminar air flow. While laminar air flow is more efficient going through the intake system, it typicaly will not keep the droplets of fuel suspended as uniformly as air that is churning. The droplets tend to become bigger and more poorly dispersed. (Non-port injected engine).
While I agree with much of what you've posted, lets not mix philosophies-fuel in suspension vs. air flow. They are two different, though inter-related subjects within an engine.
An analogy: I spent a few years with a company that manufactured conveyance systems for plastic resin. The stuff is like rabbit food in size/shape. We had problems in maintaining flow of product, primarily downstream of elbows. The cure was to sandblast the inside of the elbows. We couldn't make the air charge turbulent to keep the product properly in suspension, so we made the resin turbulent. Fast moving air by itself did not keep the resin in suspension. It was the turbulence imparted to the resin by the rough surface within the elbows that kept the product in suspension in the air column.
I am not confusing fuel atomization with turbulence. They are two different topics. Turbulence is churning air. Atomization is the process whereby liquid fuel is broken into droplets.
It might be the advant of port injection was developed because more efficient air flow didn't keep the fuel in suspension adequately. I'd spoken with racing friends about extrude-honing my carburated engine's intake to improve the flow, and was told they'd tried it and the result was fuel puddling. In a port injected engine, with no fuel being atomized at the throttle body, there is no befefit of a means to more uniformly suspend the fuel mixture in transport (aka turbulence). Turbulent air can then be replaced with an improved, smoother, more laminar air flow technology without concern for fuel puddling within the intake manifold.
My initial response about volume was based on what I perceive to be a minimal expansion of volume of the intake system added by the spacer's addition of, what? 6-8 cubic inches? Not much compaired to however-many cubic feet within an intake manifold. By the way, you might not want to include the point that swirl induced turbulence in a cylinder is great for improving burn characteristics, because that improvement in burn characteristics is due precisely from a better and more uniform dispersement of fuel.
Larger plenum volume will not improve air flow at higher rpms, by the way. The ability (by design) of the air charge be be unrestricted in its flow will provide that. The Magnum's beerkeg suffers at high rpms compaired to the M1 for that exact reason. The beerkeg has runners that extend from one side to the other in order to produce the air velosity necessary for good low-end torque while the M1 has very short (relatively) runners that go straight to the port. The same applies to the comparison between a single plane and a dual plane intake for a carburated engine. Also, an increase in volume of the intake tract does not help straighten the airway; inserting a "tube" under the tb/carb, though, will. Were a volume increase the thing, the bores would be made bigger. We both know that the trick isn't volume, but making an 'air chute'.
Since the original questions pertained to whistle, yeah, that is normal. I have an AirAid that did the same thing. It stopped after I installed a FastMan throttle body. (That to improve flow. And it does seem to work.).
These devices seem to improve performance with SOME applications. The Magnum engines don't appear to benefit, though. I stand by my post.
Hey, aren't you glad we can agree to disagree? Have a good brew and a better weekend!
Doc
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RealTruth
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
13:08:20
| RE: throttle body spacers
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With the Air Raid spacer removed seemd to feel a little quicker response - or maybe it was just me at 2am and no coffee.
Had almost a full tank of gas, so I'll interested if there is any change in MPG with out the spacer.
Live and learn
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
21:10:16
| RE: throttle body spacers
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Okay, now why is it I wouldn't want to mention turbulence within a cylinder? That's where you WANT the turbulence, and it's caused, once again, by the cylinder head design, including the entry path at the intake port. The idea is to get the mixture there as smoothly as possible. Turbulence inhibits flow. Engines run on air. The more air you pack into them, the more power they make, or the more efficiently they operate.
A key reason street vehicles do not perform well with slick-as-glass port/polished wet intakes and heads is for fuel suspension. The ports need a small amount of texture to actually maintain good suspension of fuel. This texture maintains a boundary-layer of air between the main mixture flow and the port floor. Nothing new there. Racers (small circle-tracks) who needed lots of mid-range torque used to put metal mesh, akin to window screen across the lower half of their intake ports to do just what you are talking about. The difference? The turbulence caused by this was very near the intake valve. If it was such a good idea, why not just put it under the carb? Because, under the carb, it would be a flow restriction and the fuel would still have to travel the intake tract, now all twisted up and not smoothly flowing. The screen would atomize the hell outta the fuel, but the flow would be so inhibited, the upper rpm power would suffer.
You really should read more closely. I did say that increased volume would straighten out airflow, and this was taking into account that the increased volume was due to the use of a spacer. Spacer +height+straighter pathway=a more negotiable route for air to flow through.
I get what you're saying, but it's something that makes sense as a theory. In reality, it doesn't do so well. Besides, don't you think those throttle blades cause enough turbulence at anything short of wide-open-throttle (thus, just enough when you need it, and very little when you don't)? You're saying there should be even more? Turbulent airflow in the intake runners is not a good thing. Decades of hot-rodding and countless hot rodders have proven, and re-proven this to be true. You don't have to take my word for it. Take theirs.
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.DOC.
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2004
14:55:05
| RE: throttle body spacers
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gen1dak,
If you read both out latest posts, you'll realize that for the most part we're saying the same thing, just with some different wording.
Don't stay between the lines,...Doc
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gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2004
19:51:27
| RE: throttle body spacers
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Funny, it looked like you were saying add more turbulence than was already there......aka, with a "special" spacer. I have maintained it's better to not have any more than is already there, and if increased performance is the goal, less turbulence in the intake is the goal. Turbulence in the cylinders is not the same thing.
At this point, whatever. You do your thing.........I'll be the one passing you. Have fun. Meee-Meep!
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