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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/17/2003
14:27:45
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 Subject: Running Cooler...
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Hey, I've had a V6 Dakota 4x4 and recently got hit by somebody, which twisted the frame. I now own a V8 dakota 4x4 with everything, and was looking to get the best performance out of it. I have a Tornado Air, Bosch Platinum 4's, K&N Air Filter, and gold spark-plug wires on it already. Now I just talked with the Dodge dealer here in my city, and he said the thermostat comes set at like 190deg or 195deg. I am wondering if putting on a thermostat at around 160deg will improve anything. I know that until I get my computer reset to know that 160deg is normal, it'll dump more fuel if I floor it because it thinks the engine is cold, but aside from that, will it give me any other gains (such as better fuel efficiency after the computer is reset)? Thanks for the information!
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kicker01
Dodge Dakota
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6/17/2003
14:47:36
|  RE: Running Cooler...
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Do not put a 160 deg T-Stat in. It will trip the MIL light. Get a 180 deg T-Stat instead.
Steve
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98Durango360
Dodge Dakota
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6/17/2003
14:47:53
| RE: Running Cooler...
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I would recommend a 180. Most people seem to agree that the 160 stat is too cold. You might get a little bit better fuel efficiency as well as better power, but its just nice running everything a little bit colder. Probably won't really notice the gains too much though.
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/17/2003
15:45:29
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Why will putting in the 160 trip the check engine light? Will the computer think the engine is incapable of getting up to running temperature and then try to "warn" me? When I called the Dodge service department and got the basic information (what thermo is in it now, will running cooler damage anything, etc) the guy did not say anything about running at 160 triggering any lights or buzzers. All he said was that it may actually consume more fuel.
Oh yeah, and I forgot one more change (biggest one I'll have done to this truck) I have comming. My little brother is getting me a flowmaster with dual exhaust for my birthday! I'm thinking series 50 SUV/Pickup for that deep rich "I'll stomp you into the ground, S-10 man!" sound.
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RobertG
Dodge Dakota
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6/17/2003
17:50:56
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Dodge motors like to run cool. It seems that the cooler my 5.2 runs, the faster it is. However, the engine must reach a certain minimum temp to operate properly. Pre-computer engines really liked 160, so it became a hot-rod tuning trick to run a 160 in a carb-ed engine. However the computerized vehicles use engine coolant temp to judge how much fuel to spray from the MPFI. The longer spray time (duty cycle) of the injector performs the same function the choke did on a carb-ed engine. However the computer expects the engine to reach a certain miniumum temp so it can come out of fuel enrichment mode. The computer is basically telling you "Hey, the motor's not warm enough and I'm having to run with the choke on. Check it, dammit." Or "Hey its not hot enough so I think the coolant sensor is broken" That can set a Check Engine light. But I've never actually seen it happen.
Most guys run the 180 year-round because its supposedly runs the motor right above the fuel enrichment temp all year round. This supposedly fools the computer into providing a slightly richer fuel mixture and better ign timing curve. I'm happy running the 180, but I'd try the 160 in the summer if it wasn't such a PITA to get to the thermostat housing.
BTW, when you do the exhaust, make sure to change the O2 sensors if the truck has over 60K miles.
good luck
robertg
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/17/2003
18:23:20
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Thanks for the info Robert. I may exchange my 160 for a 180 tonight or tomorrow then. I really wanted it to run super-cool, but I do NOT have the money to blow on gas if it'll waste it. Still, that 35deg difference is tempting.
You also addressed something I just realized. How the frag do I get to the housing? Do I have to remove my alternator? I have the 5.2L V8 in a '95 model, 4x4.
I also flushed the cooling system as soon as I got this truck and flushed it a second time, and a third, and even a fourth, then added the orange coolant at about a 66/33 mixture. That stuff works miracles by itself. I recomend it to anybody who still runs green coolant. Just make sure you completly flush your system (run the heat wide open while flushing to get it out of the heater sub-system) because I've heard that if the orange and green coolants mix, it forms some kind of acid and will ruin the entire cooling system.
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RobertG
Dodge Dakota
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6/17/2003
20:32:31
| RE: Running Cooler...
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I've got a '96 SLT 2wd with the 5.2. I've found that its easiest to remove belt and unbolt the alt and set it to the side when changing thermostats. You may also need to *gently* move the AC lines from the compressor over a *little* to remove the alt. Make sure to disconnect the battery first. Make sure to get the right t-stat gasket, as I remember some sort of confusion over the correct gasket at the parts store. Like I said, a mild PITA.
How does the orange juice work for you? What diffs have you noticed? I'm old school, so Im still using the green stuff at a 50/50 mix. I've always heard that water conducts more heat than green antifreeze, so a 50/50 mix was best for a balance of heat carrying/boilover/freeze protection.
Oh- You mentioned that you were getting duals- I had a problem mashing my tips when going thru ditches/offroad/unloading motorcycles. Make sure tip placement won't get in the way of anything. I eventually changed from a dual outlet flow to a 3" single system exiting at stock location. No more mashed pipes. May not be a prob if your 4X4 is higher in the air.
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/17/2003
22:16:59
|  RE: Running Cooler...
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I took your advice and got a 180deg thermo, and now just need to get a friend to help me pull back the (tortion?) bar that keeps the belt tight. The alternator will be no problem to remove though. I'll post on this message again tomorrow after I get it installed and give it a test-run. Thanks for all the info!
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ben rollins
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
04:23:56
| RE: Running Cooler...
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the 160 is good in our daks only if its a high perf. motor thats been stroked, blown and nitrious too.
oh yea, funny how u metion dodge engines like to run cool!! haha like other engines like to run hot. a engine is a engine is a engine
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RobertG
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
13:30:15
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Ben-
Correct operating temp depends on engine mods, engine family, fuel used and application. I'm taking the longview when I said Dodge motors like to be cool. My '67 LeMans isn't happy unless she's at about 200 deg.
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
14:09:45
|  RE: Running Cooler...
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I just spent four hours getting nowhere. I can't figure out how to loosen the tension-bar to remove the belt so I can remove my alternator. Can this be done or does a dealer have to use some special tool? I'm kind of frustrated because I had a friend help me and he couldn't do anything either, and he does mechanical work on the side. I'm 23, but I'm not an average 23yr old by any means. I've done 3yrs of ROTC (Army, yech!), I can do anything you want with a computer, from programing in C/C++ on Windows or Linux, to building an complete system at cost, and I have always tinkered with small engines, such as my old ATV. Still, never messed with a big engine on this level and it's new to me.
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RobertG
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
14:49:42
| RE: Running Cooler...
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You got one big serpantine belt, right? The belt tensioner is the pulley on the passanger side of the engine below the alternator, right in front of the ign coil. I think the bolt that goes thru the pulley is 15MM or 17MM. Put a metric box end wrench on it and pull toward the driver's side of the engine to put slack in the belt. Hold the wrench while working the belt off a pulley like the alt or AC pulley. The carefully release the wrench. Make sure to note how the belt routes before removing it. Good time to change belt if needed. Make sure to disconnect battery so you don't short alt. On my 96, one of the coolant sensors is next to the thermostat housing, make sure not to damage it or the wire going to it while wrenching on thermostat. There is also a ground wire and a small black bracket you may have to remove. Note how it all comes apart.
Oh- remember its an aluminum intake manifold, so don't overtorque the bolts when installing new stat. Clean & dry sealing surfaces and use just a little film of red RTV on both sides of gasket if you must. I've gotten them to seal off with no RTV if the housing and intake are cleaned of old gasket really well. Might need a gasket scraper or wire brush.
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
16:36:08
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Final problem, the hose. I removed the clamp (pinched it and slid it all the way down off the hose) from the hose, but I cannot remove the hose. I stood on the bumper, grabbed the hose, and put all my weight on it and it didn't budge a millimeter. I locked up the truck and left it as-is, but I need to get that hose off. I could easily cut it, but then I couldn't reassemble the thing. I am beginning to wonder if over the 97766 miles the rubber melted to the fixture, meaning I need a new hose and fixture :/. Any ideas?
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TECH
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
20:37:30
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Sephiroth, are you a Final Fantasy fan?
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
21:46:47
| RE: Running Cooler...
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OK, finally broke the hose loose, removed the old gasket and thermo, and put in the new thermo, and layed the new gasket in place. Replaced the metal tube and bolted it in good, but not enough to strip the aluminum. Now, I could NOT get that bracket-piece back on, nor did I want to because it is nearly impossible to get to, with or without alternator. I replaced it with a hose-clamp that I tightened thoroughly. Finally, I replaced the alternator and put my belt back on.
Now the truck cranks and runs fine, but my temperature indicator says I am running insanely hot. I got out and checked under the hood and it was as hot as a fire-cracker, both on the hose and the radiator itself. Is it possible that the new 180deg thermo is bad? This thing is going up to 3/4 max temperature. I shut off the engine as soon as I noticed to prevent damage. Need some ideas here.
Tech:
Yes, and unlike other Americans, I've played them all. FF2 and 3 were actually for the NES, and then 4 was SNES, but released in the USA as 2, we never got 5 for the SNES, then their 6 was out three, and we finally caught them with 7, and are now getting them all.
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Thermo Tec
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
21:55:46
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Is it upside down ? (thermostat)
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93 Dak
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
22:40:35
| RE: Running Cooler...
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With 97,000 miles, I hope you replaced the radiator hose while you had it disconnected. Also the small bypass hose by the thermostat should be replaced while you have all that apart. It would be a real pain to go through all that again to fix a blown hose!
The cone of the thermostat points towards the radiator.
James
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
22:40:37
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Ah shoulda' mentioned that. It is in the right way, same as the old one. The side witht he spring is down (in the block so to speak) and the arched piece faces up into the tube.
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93Dak
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
23:08:58
| RE: Running Cooler...
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I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but, did you put the belt back on (you never know :)? Is the belt on the right way so the water pump pulley is turning the correct direction? I always test new thermostats in a pot on the stove before installing them(you never know).
James
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
23:17:39
| RE: Running Cooler...
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I'm pretty sure I put it on right, but I will check. Also, how does putting one in a pot on a stove tell you it's good? I assume it will move or do something, but since I've not messed with thermos much, I am not sure what to look for :D!
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03Dak
Dodge Dakota
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6/18/2003
23:45:47
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Just a thought. I'm kind of old school as well (carberated hot rods) and I remember dropping the t-stat temps as well. However I remember the deal being that a 180 t-stat was good, maybe somewhat colder could even work but when you really drop the t-stat opening temp too much, say 160, it could actually stay open all the time and never cool below the 160 temp when a 180 t stat will still be able to cycle (open and shut) which was supposedly be able to transfer the heat better than the water flowing at max speed and continuously.
I remember that happening to me before. Installing a 160 t-stat and the car actually ran HOTTER because the water didn't cycle to transfer the heat as well.
Anybody else ever have any experience with that?
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2003
00:02:34
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Yeah I thought of that myself, but RobertG (unless I am mistaken) said he uses a 180 on his 5.2 V8, the same engine as mine. I'm going to check for leaks in the morning when I have light, and I'll also see if maybe it is a little low or something.
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RobertG
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2003
10:19:18
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Yup, I'm running the 180. Check to make sure the rad is full of water. Sometimes an air pocket will form under the themostat & the engine will get hot but the stat doesnt open cuz the air pocket isn't transferring heat to the stat. Thats why you have to 'burp' the system of air. I usually let it run with the cap off so I can see the water start to back up from the bottom rad hose & try to overflow. Sometimes I can put my hand over the rad fill (engine idling, rad cold) and squeeze the top hose to try to burp the system. Then the system will usually start flowing & the level will drop due to the air pocket filling with water. Top off rad and all should be fine. Maybe turn on heater to try to burp the system with the heater bypass.
This assumes that the fan belt is routed right. Dodge magnum engine waterpumps are reverse rotation, make sure the water pump is spinning counter clockwise while the crank pulley is spinning clockwise.
Another common mistake is installing the stat on top of the gasket. Stat should drop in, then gasket goes on top. Although this usually causes water leaks but stat should still work.
I use a cheap probe-style thermometer (like for cooking, dial with the spike for poking a chicken's butt when cooking) that I stick in the rad fill hole to watch temp when I do cooling system work. If water is flowing, the thermometer will tell me what the outlet temp is- for a 180 stat, you should see temps of 160-190 on the thermometer.
Sounds like you got an air pocket or maybe somebody stuck the wrong thermostat in the 180 box. Keep us posted on what happens.
03Dak, youre right about the whole themostat selection vs overheating thing. But it depends on what engine the 160 is installed in. Smaller engines(ricers) with alum heads and/or marginal radiators can show overheating probs with the wrong thermostat. We could start a new thread and go for days on thermostat selection vs application vs ambient temp vs whatever. its a big topic....
good luck guyz
robertg
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Sephiroth
Dodge Dakota
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6/19/2003
14:17:38
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Found the problem now that I can SEE the engine due to having daylight. The rear bolt got tight so i stopped screwing it in to prevent stripping the block out, but I had about a millimeter of play back there! I removed everything and swapped the bolts, and it tightened up and is running GREAT! I even let it get some speed behind it to try to heat the motor, but it REFUSES to go over about 1/4 temperature!! I can't wait to fill it all the way up and head back home to visit my parents again and see the difference in consumption. This tiny 15deg difference has REALLY reduced the engine temperature. Now I need that flowmaster with dual exhaust and I'll be set :D!
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03Dak
Dodge Dakota
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6/21/2003
20:48:24
| RE: Running Cooler...
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I was looking at my fan today. I too have the 4X4 with the towing package. I have swapped out belt driven fans for electric fans MANY of times on older cars. FREE horsepower. Well, some is lost thru the amp draw on the altenator but you still notice a lot so it's well worth it!
The question now is, has anyone done this on a brand new truck (like mine) and did the dealer freak out? Does it void warranty?
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2003
00:39:31
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Just put it back on before you go to a dealer. I`d imagine they would take issue with it.
03 qc 4.7 4x4 auto
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03Dak
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2003
01:13:40
| RE: Running Cooler...
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OK. That wouldn't be too much of a problem I guess.
Did someone say that when you remove the large bolt that holds the fan on, that the pulley stayed on? Or did they simply mean that the pulley just stayed on just long enough to remove the fan from the clutch then re install the clutch section back onto the pulley to hold it all together?
I'd figure it out if I just went and removed it, But I'd like to know first.
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jeremiah2360
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2003
10:58:48
| RE: Running Cooler...
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Pulley is pressed on, is not going anywhere. Do a search for more helpful info.
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rockerol
Dodge Dakota
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7/10/2003
01:53:42
|  RE: Running Cooler...
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Hello fellow Dakota members,
I became highly interested in finding out more about a thermostat swap for my Dakota, such as the project described by RobertG. I own a '96 Dakota with a 318, and would like to know if any of you happen to have a Part Number handy for the required 180 deg stat. Especially interested in maintaining my engine as cool as possible, due to the intense heat that my truck is exposed to, living in Arizona. Would not complaint about any improvements in gas mileage that may come along with the swap. Also, any info on how to clear the Trouble codes ('check engine') after making the necessary repairs will be deeply appreciated.
Best Regards
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