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Larry L
Dodge Dakota
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5/08/2003
11:38:10
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 Subject: Possible 4.7 defect
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I picked this up from another site and thought I would give you the heads up. Seems that the 4.7 is a sludge monster. Chrysler was apparently aware of the problem but but installed a baffle so it would not be apparent unless you took the valve covers off. Failures are occurring at 30,000 plus miles and Chrysler is not standing good the warranty. Long article in the link.
http://consumeraffairs.com/automotive/dodge_dur_oil.html
Might want to consider flushing the engine with Auto-Rx and using Amzoil. I don't sell Amzoil and rarely recommend it but it is the most stable oil out there.
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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5/08/2003
16:17:25
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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You know what I notice when I read these:
1. the 98 and 99 durango did not have the 4.7, only the 2000 and up did.
2. the 4.7 does make sludge in the fill tube, BUT it si not in the pan so what these people saw was dealers wanting to change out engines that probably didn't see it.
I have been a relatively active member of the 4.7 community and can attest that I never had any problems with mine. It sounds more like an oil pump greedy mechanics problems than anything else. I put 85 k hard miles on my first 4.7 and now I own 2 new ones so this engine has my faith in it.
Take this for what it is worth.
Chris
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maynardh
Dodge Dakota
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5/08/2003
18:34:06
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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It seems as though most of those complaints were the 5.2, not the 4.7.
I just had the heads and intake off mine this week changing the head gaskets. When I pulled the valve covers, there was absolutely NO sludge in the heads. This is with about 115,000 miles on the engine.
Actually, I would say it was one of the cleanest engines I've ever seen inside.
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chris
Dodge Dakota
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5/21/2003
23:03:50
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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I work at a Dodge dealership. The journals on the 4.7 are small and get plugged easy. Just make sure to change your oil under 3000 miles and you will be fine. chris
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CThomp
*GenIII*
5/22/2003
08:27:23
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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journals? Does running synthetic help prevent any of these problems? Seems like it would.
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2003
11:54:03
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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Once the oil is pumped to the heads it has to run back down to the oil pan. The return holes in the heads are small so when the oil starts to crud up it makes these holes smaller. By changing your oil on time it prevents the crud build up. Syn. oil may help but it can be kind of expensive. I would suggest a thinner oil and to beat the snot out of your truck once and awhile to get the oil flowing good! Chris
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2003
12:33:25
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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So i guess my drive it like I stole it additude and my 3k mile oil changes are why my last truck made 85k without burnign oil or any foreeable in the future problems at all... I like these trucks...
Chris
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BigBlue QC
GenIII
5/22/2003
12:38:13
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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man, I should be on my second motor by now. go figure. Maybe no maintenance means engine goes boom.
2002 QC 4x4 Sport Plus, 4.7L, auto, Patriot Blue, Tire & Handling group,
Heavy Duty Service group, Leer cap w/out windows, Mopar Step bars and roof rack, Rhino liner in bed and on step bars, Pace Edwards Power Tailgate lock
3.55 rear, 4-wheel anti-lock brakes, all possible fluids are AMSOIL
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2003
12:42:13
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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Nice truck BigBlue!
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Blu
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2003
21:44:47
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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I Have a Dodge Ram with a 4.7 in it , and was wanting to install the Jeep H.O. intake and cams. My question is , what about the stock pcm? Will it compensate, or will it need a program change? If so, how do I locate the correct program, and how do I get it installed? The local dealership is totally useless when talking about performance upgrades, and I can't find any knowledgable people who could give me a correct answer. I have seen a lot of Dakota guys who have made this conversion, and was looking to them for help.
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TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2003
23:57:39
|  RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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Blu,
Don't worry so much! The HO cams, and HO intake, on the classic 4.7 (Classic-I like that), makes it's gains by increasing intake lift and duration, and by lengthing the runners of the intake manifold. (it was 'lengthening, wasn't it .alex.?).
This is not a PCM performance upgrade, which can be nice if you can get a descent one for your engine.
Your current PCM will adapt to the changes just fine via the the sensors already in place and do well. A descent flash of the PCM i.e.-a dyno proven one, also works well with these mods.
Enjoy the new attitude, your engine will have!
Todd Bouton
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Sherri
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2003
15:33:24
|  RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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you guys are scaring me with all this talk! I just bought my Dakota last night, 2003 , with 4.7 Atlantic Blue, LOVE IT LOVE IT so far. Just browsing the site! I will check back in with you guys to see if you gus have anymore news! Thanks!
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jeff
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2003
17:46:08
|  RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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yea stop with the hear say on the 4.7 you had me worried for a second. but the whole change your oil relieved that since i love to aid new stuff to my auto's. i just got my 4.7 dakota stampede also.
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01motorsport
Dodge Dakota
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5/25/2003
16:44:15
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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3000 mile oil changes: ride on and on and on...
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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5/27/2003
08:08:41
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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I guess this also supports the 4.7's need for 5w30 oil instead of 10w oil...
Chris
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guest
Dodge Dakota
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5/28/2003
11:11:03
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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I'm going to Castrol Syntech after 20K miles
Plan to (CARFULLY)run some engine flush through it which I normally wouldn't recommend in a newer engine but just in case there has already been some build up.
I've decided to switch to the Synthetic oil since I do some long distance towing with my Truck during the summer and often have to run over on the 3K change.
Highway miles normally don't break down the oil as fast as stop and go driving city driving does, so running a couple of 1000 over should be fine with a quality regular oil, but the Synthec is designed not to break down over longer period of time
Another reason is truck sits more during the winter so the 3 month time period between changes alway come well before the 3K mark.
Also advertized to helps prevent sludge from forming in your engine.
So given the reasons above I think it'll be worth the extra cost over the long run.
Always used Quaker State 5W-30W in winter and 10W-30W in summer in all my vehicles.
----------------------------------
New Truck owner please note:
In a new or newly rebuilt engine you want a certain amount of controlled wear to occur to allow piston rings to seat and the engine to "break-in." Our recommendation is to utilize conventional oil for new and rebuilt engines for your first oil change and after that you may switch to SYNTEC for superior engine protection
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Love the DaK forum and would become a member
I know bandwidth isn't free but $30 * # of members= quite a bit. IMO it's just a bit steep for an annual membership.
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88dragtop
Dodge Dakota
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5/28/2003
15:46:27
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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I just read that article and am pissed since I just discovered this sludge under my oil cap doing my 1st oil change on my 03 dakota. Just what the hell is the problem? It looks like coolant getting in somehow to me. Is there a fix? What causes the sludge if it's not coolant? The oil on the dipstick looks clean but if I saw this in my s/c mustang I'd be doing head gaskets for sure(actually just finished last w/e)
This blows, maybe I'll be selling it. Gonna see what the dealer says
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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5/29/2003
12:26:00
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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The sludge is jsut because the filler tube is a composite (plastic) and it does not get up to temp to actually burn the vapor out of it, it then mixes with the oil mist in the crankcase and gives all of us some foam in the filler. It is normal and is not going to harm the engine. I actually have never had this foam come out during an oil change on a 4.7 (I am on my 3rd now, 85k on the first, changed at 500, 1500, 3000 then every 3k after that, same on my Jeep with 18k and on my truck with 3k) and all of them have had the sludge in the tube. Once I had foam on the crankcase of my old 3.9 due to a headgasket problem and that was a different story all together...
Bottom line: Don't worry about it as it is perfectly normal.
Chris
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fastdak
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2003
00:20:15
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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there was a service notice on this. something about a bad o ring on the oil filler tube. had mine worked on. no sludge since.but i run synthetic oil now too. no more dino oil for my baby.
2001 dodge motorsports limited edition
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88dragtop
Dodge Dakota
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6/05/2003
09:59:26
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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Haven't checked to see if it has returned yet after oil change but it still seems like it shouldn't happen since there is a vacuum line running from the top of the filler tube. It should suck any vapors out to be burned off in the motor and not let it accumulate. Just have to keep an eye on it I guess
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Gus the Dog
Dodge Dakota
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6/05/2003
10:50:22
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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When I picked up my new 03 QC 4.7 V8 5spd a couple weeks ago from the dealer I asked them about this since I had been reading this thread. He said the problem may be related to not getting the engine hot enough to burn off any oil deposits if you are only driving short distances. He said with my 20 miles each way commute I should not have any problems. Just change the oil every 5K and it should be ok.
Gus
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sgbofav
Dodge Dakota
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6/12/2003
14:58:13
| RE: Possible 4.7 defect
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That line coming off the side of the filler tube is the pcv valve. Don't fret the stuff near the cap at all.
Castrol syntec is not a true synthetic oil:
Synthetic Motor Oil Gets All New Semantics
(first published in Nov., 2000 issue of Car and Driver by Patrick Bedard)
Now that the meaning if "is" has gotten so slippery you need to grab it with both hands, we'd better keep an eye on longer words, too.
One's already got so squirmy on us- "synthetic," as in synthetic motor oil.
Most guys know two things about synthetic oils. First, the price is three to four times that of conventional oils. Second, they're not real oil, not made from crude.
News flash: Scratch that second part. Now motor oils derived from crude may be labeled "synthetic." But they still cost over four bucks a quart.
Bait and switch? That's the obvious conclusion. Except in this case the advertising ethics people have given their approval.
Here's what happened, according to a detailed account published in the trade magazine Lubricants World. Late in 1997, Castrol changed the formula of its Syntec "full synthetic motor oil", eliminating the polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stock (that's the "synthetic" part, which makes up about 70% by volume of what's in the bottle) and replacing it with a "hydroisomerized" petroleum base stock.
Mobil Oil Corporation, maker of Mobil 1, "Worlds Leading Synthetic Motor Oil," said no fair and took its complaint to the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus. NAD often arbitrates between feuding advertisers on their conflicting claims.
The notion behind synthetic motor oils as we've known them is an elegant one. Instead of relying on the cocktail of hydrocarbons contained in crude oil, why not go into the laboratory and build the perfect base stock from scratch, molecule by molecule, and builds it till it gets 10-carbon molecules, then combines three of those to form PAO. The result is a fluid more stable than the usual base oils derived from crude. It keeps flowing at low temperatures. It's more resistant to boiling off, and more resistant to oxidation, which causes thickening with prolonged exposure to high temperatures.
Still, there's more than one road to the point B of improved stability. Petroleum refiners in recent years have learned how to break apart certain undesirable molecules - wax, for example, which causes thickening of oil at low temperatures- and transform them by chemical reaction into helpful molecules. These new hydroisomerized base oils, in the view of some industry participants provided properties similar to PAO's but only cost half as much," Lubricants World reported.
The argument before NAD tiptoed around the obvious- does the consumer get four bucks' worth of value from each quart of synthetic oil?- and plunged straight into deep semantics. Mobil's experts said "synthetic" traditionally meant big molecules built up from small ones. Castrol's side held out for a looser description, defining "synthetic" as "the product of an intended chemical reaction."
What do unbiased sources say? It turns out that the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and the American Petroleum Institute (API) both have technical standards covering motor oils, and both of these organizations in the '90's backed away from their old definitions of "synthetic," leaving lots of room for new interpretations.
In the end, NAD decided that the evidence constitutes a reasonable basis for the claim that Castrol Syntec, as currently formulated, is a synthetic motor oil, said Lubricants World.
The obvious question now: Has the term "synthetic motor oil" been opened up to the point that it no longer means anything? Maybe. But here's a better question: Did synthetic ever mean what we thought it meant?
"Great oil" is what most guys think it means. "At that price, it's gotta be great stuff!"
Okay, but how great? Your cars manual tells what motor oil you should use, and with few exceptions, that description will consist of only two specifications. One is for viscosity, such as 10W-30; and the other is for the API service grade, SJ being the current one for gasoline passenger cars.
The buck-a-quart multi-grades meet these standards, as do the synthetics.
The synthetics, on the back label, claim compliance with more standards, but even if you know what they mean, they seem beside the point for U.S. passenger cars. For example, should you care about diesels if you drive a gasoline burner? API service CF is the oldest of the current specs for light-duty diesels; some synthetics list that one. Synthetics may also list ACEA A1 and B1, which are European specs roughly equivelant to API gasoline and diesel specs. The Europeans grad their oils by level of performance, so that A2 and A3 are tougher specs than A1. Same for diesels. Usually the date of the spec is omitted, but A1-98 is newer than A1-96.
Completely absent is the one performance claim that would have some real meaning for all of us- some indication of longer oil life. (except for AMSOIL which clearly states 25,000 miles/1-year or 35,000 miles/1-year for their Severe Service 0W-30 synthetic). Automakers hold synthetics to the same oil change intervals as conventional oils. And the oil companies, promise even less. "To give added protection and life to your engine, change your oil every 3000 miles." This same language appears on the back of both Penzoil Synthetic and conventional oils. Valvoline synthetic makes a similar recommendation. (commentary: Since 1972 AMSOIL is the ONLY synthetic oil manufacturer in the world to guarantee 25,000 miles or 35,000 mile oil change intervals and utilizing full PAO synthetic technology exclusively).
Synthetics do get one unambiguous endorsement: Corvettes, Porsches, Vipers, and all AMG models from Mercedes-Benz come with Mobil 1 as the factory fill.
Most synthetics mention GM 4718M in their list of claims; that's the unique spec created by General Motors for Corvette oil. It's a high-temperature requirement that tolerates less oxidation (thickening) and volatility (boil-off) on a standard engine test called Sequence 111E according to engineer Bob Olree of GM Powertrain. (note: AMSOIL 0W-30 far surpasses GM's 4718M spec).
But don't expect to learn such details on any label (again, except for AMSOIL which clearly states test results on the back of every bottle of Series 2000 0W-30 and 20W-50 synthetic). Mobil 1 at least uses straight forward declarative sentences. Most of the others read as though they were written by a lawyer looking for an escape clause. Why else would the following claim be so rubbery? "Penzoil Synthetic motor oil is recommended for use in all engines requiring ILSACGF-1, GF-2, API SJ, SH, or SG, and in engines requiring oils meeting GM 4718M." Okay, but does it actually pass those standards?
"Yes" says James Newsom, Penzoil's motor-oil product manager.
Castrol Syntec, on its label, "exceeds" every standard it mentions. Hmm. Now that the meaning of "is" is in play, I have to wonder, does Syntec meet those standards as well?
"It does" says Castrol's Julie Ann Oberg. While I have her on the phone, I ask if there will be a Syntec price reduction now that the lower-cost base stock has been substituted for the old synthetic. She says no.
End of article.
Now, after reading that why would anybody in their right mind want to spend their hard-earned money on Castrol Syntec, Penzoil Synthetic, Valvoline Synthetic or any of the other "synthetics" when what your getting is not even a true 100% full PAO synthetic? Even Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic uses multiple base-stock technology by blending other synthetic molecules with the PAO base-stocks and then they come up with a catchy name of Tri-Synthetic. Pretty sneaky huh? AMSOIL moved away from multiple base-stock technology over 20 years ago!, yet Mobil makes it sound like their Tri-Synthetic technology is some new earth-shattering technology. What a joke!
Why not skip all the hype and deception of these other manufacturers and just use AMSOIL? AMSOIL uses only 100% full synthetic PAO technology in each and everyone of its motor oils and is the undisputed leader in synthetic engine oil technology as well as the leader in synthetic gear lubes, transmission fluid, greases, two-cycle oil and many other lubricants and hydraulic fluids. Today, virtually every other motor oil manufacturer has recognized the superiority of synthetic lubricants and has followed the AMSOIL lead with introductions of "synthetic" motor oils of their own.
They spend millions of dollars advertising their "new" and "revolutionary" products. No one, however, can match AMSOIL experience and technological know-how. And no one delivers products like AMSOIL. Accept no substitutes- AMSOIL is the "First in Synthetics."
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