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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
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3/07/2003
17:47:01
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 Subject: 4.7 injectors
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question:...stock 4.7 injectors flow at 22.5 lb/hr @ 49psi and 4.7 H.O. injectors flow at 25.8lb/hr @ 49psi,now with a cam upgrade,with 200 or 206 intake duration at (0.50)valve lift... be it a H.O. Cam or a KRC or a Hughes,would it be worth it to upgrade to H.O. injectors?? thanks
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cotharyus
GenIII
 
3/08/2003
10:40:18
|  RE: 4.7 injectors
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I've been told that the injectors are the same on the 4.7 and the HO, and that they really flow more like 19lbs/hr. I've been looking at upgrading injectors, but then I've got a fair amount of work done on my engine.
2001 QC 4x4, 4.7,5 spd, LSD, 255/70-15's, K&N Gen II Intake, Robert Shaw 180 Stat, Hanson Enterprise custom front bumper, Highflow cat, EHO 70mm TB
Check out my Dak
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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
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3/08/2003
16:12:56
|  RE: 4.7 injectors
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well from what www.wjjeeps.com/engine.htm they say they are different in flow rate. and i would think that to be true with higher intake on h.o. cams compared to stock,otherwise you would have a lean mixture with ho cam.check out what they say about the differences between the stock and ho engine.
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TheSync
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2003
01:22:11
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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So say if i had a stock 4.7. Would it be worth it to change it to true 19 lb. injectors, or leave it as it is? Or if i was going to upgrade, should i just go 24 lb. injectors?
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cotharyus
GenIII
3/09/2003
07:56:04
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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What I'm telling you is you already have 19lb injectors, but they're supposed to be 24. With a stock 4.7 I don't know that it would be worth upgrading, but if you've got some heavy mods, it might be worth while.
tomahawk - my information comes from research. I happen to have been told while looking for a set of HO injectors that they're the same part number as the 4.7
2001 QC 4x4, 4.7,5 spd, LSD, 255/70-15's, K&N Gen II Intake, Robert Shaw 180 Stat, Hanson Enterprise custom front bumper, Highflow cat, EHO 70mm TB, HO intake manifold, HO cams, EHO heads, JBA headers, MBRP exhaust
Check out my Dak
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
3/09/2003
10:31:33
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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And no, you should not run lean with the stock injectors and HO cams installed. My plugs are a nice light brown color on all cylinders, which denots good burn characteristics.
K&N Drop in AF (CAI during summer months)
True Dual exhaust and removed third cat
HO Cams & HO Intake
FASTMAN 70mm TB
Autolite 3923 Plugs
TPS @ .76 VDC
IAT Adjuster Mod
14.52@94.2 MPH at Silver Dollar Raceway
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2003
12:59:50
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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The H.O. 4.7 really is not that much higher output then regular 4.7. They must have some future plans for it though. THe reason I say this is that you would not give it free float pins, forged crank, forged pistons for a scant more HP. They must plan on super chargeing or turbo chargeing this engine! The engine can handle mild super chargeing with the same injectors so the idea of changeing them is really silly unless you are planing on boosting the engine quite a bit. Even if you did you could just add additional foger injectors to the air intake duct and a controller to make up the difference that was independent of the factory ECM. I would probably mount an auxiliarly fuel pump inline and put a togel switch and relay to activate it under extreme conditions like raceing and off roading.
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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2003
15:29:27
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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sorry but i dont agree,...why would wjjeeps.com post it that there is a difference between injectors? because its fun to do?because they intentionally want to mislead? lol and (IF) there is a difference in pounds per hr,why would DC put them in the motor ...also i take it cause its fun to do? because it doesnt matter? lol yes i know all the mods will work with regular injectors,just concerned about detonation because on the 4.7 regular motor, cause the top ring is 1/8 from top of piston and just because you dont hearloud pinging doesnt mean its not happening. ... ill find out monday if part numbers are the same for injectors.thanks for the opinions anyways.. can always use different thoughts on subjects.
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
3/09/2003
15:56:46
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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Well, since I've pulled my entire top end apart within the past few months, I guess I'm the one to say that there is no preignition in my engine. There is nothing to suggest it, no visible evidence of it, and no power/mileage/plug problems, no running rough...etc, etc, etc. I do run 3923's, so if there were problems with absolutely bone stock engines, then I wouldn't know. That being said, it's possible, but very improbable.
K&N Drop in AF (CAI during summer months)
True Dual exhaust and removed third cat
HO Cams & HO Intake
FASTMAN 70mm TB
Autolite 3923 Plugs
TPS @ .76 VDC
IAT Adjuster Mod
14.52@94.2 MPH at Silver Dollar Raceway
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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/09/2003
16:14:45
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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not saying there is a problem with stock 4.7 and Demon you probally did tear down your engine and found nothing...what iam saying is (IF) the injectors are different in flow rate, (WHY) did D.C. install them on H.O. motor?? because its cost efficient to do it??? because higher flow rate on a higher lift cam doesnt matter??.... and Sandman ALLPAR has an article out that MAYBE in the future they might discontinue 4.7 cause its more expensive to make than the hemi. article is www.allpar.com/model/upcoming.html scroll down to ram trucks and power ram. im running the ho cams myself and going to switch over to hughesengines her0820T comparable to krcperformance 206.. but with more exhaust and less lobe seperation.im runnin a 02 ram,pictures on dodgetruckworld.com. thanks
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
3/09/2003
16:40:01
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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with 116 deg lobe seperation, and the HO Jeep cam lobe seperation of 111, I don't know how well the Hughes will be for emissions. They may pass, but then again, they may not. KRC's 111-112 degree sep lobes are much closer to stock, and more likely to keep torque levels higher through the RPM band. The HER0820T's will sacrifice TQ for HP, but that's just my opinion. I haven't checked them yet on Dyno2000, but I will.
K&N Drop in AF (CAI during summer months)
True Dual exhaust and removed third cat
HO Cams & HO Intake
FASTMAN 70mm TB
Autolite 3923 Plugs
TPS @ .76 VDC
IAT Adjuster Mod
14.52@94.2 MPH at Silver Dollar Raceway
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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2003
16:54:14
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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well here we go with a new thing...lol here goes.. on hughesengines.com if you go to 4.7 roller section they put stock lobe sep at 0.50 lift at 115 degrees and ho cam at119.5 degrees and her at 116 degrees...and these numbers are coming from an engine builder with years of experience on chrysler motors....second on speedtweaks.net ,they say that anything with LESS THAN 112 degrees seperation will give a poor idle... cause of vacuum.they suggest 114 lobe seperation cause they are MAP friendly.
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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2003
17:11:36
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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here is a 3rd article on lobe seperation www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/mods3.shtml
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2003
19:48:31
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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The stock factory injectors are rated at 19#/hr by Siemans. That's tested at a lower fuel pressure than the Dodge system generates. The Dodge fuel system produces 49psi fuel pressure at the rail, and therefore the 19# injectors will actually flow about 23.8#/hr. So basically until you are running boost or some really radical cams with really radical heads and a really huge exhaust and a really huge throttlebody,
YOUR STOCK INJECTORS ARE JUST FINE.
Trust me. I have been researching this whole matter ON THE DYNO with the air/fuel meter reading the mixture in the exhaust pipe with an O2 sensor. If you bump up to a 21# injector, you will just start running rich. That will blacken your tail pipe, kill your horsepower and lessen your chances of passing emissions.
So, until you start running a boost, or really modify everything about the engine, the 19# injectors will serve their purpose.
just FYI- the ideal air/fuel ratio for making power is 12.5:1.... currently I am running at 10.0:1 and that is about 20% too rich. NotchLX, on the otherhand with his 6psi Paxton supercharger is running at 13:1 and that is waaay too lean for boost. Therefore, HE would benfit from larger injectors.
The end.
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TheSync
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2003
20:01:00
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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I thought all the new 4.7 liters were H.O. So if i got a 2003 dakota, 4.7, would the H.O intake and cams upgrade make a significant difference horsepower wise?
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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2003
20:51:04
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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Thesync...to your first question no.. to your second yes. alex...ya i know the stock work fine,i saw different flow rates,so i asked...your first paragraph explains it well...between siemans and what dodge generates...thats all i needed.thank u
im just warming up
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
3/09/2003
23:40:17
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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OK, here's the numbers for the stock Jeep HO Cams:
Intake 200/.480
Exhaust 212/.436
Lobe seperation 111 deg
And I know these are correct numbers. The numbers listed on Hughes website are MODIFIED cams, otherwise why would you pay that much to purchase them. He/they modified stock cams to those specs listed, modified HO cams to those specs listed...and so on. That's why they cost what they do. He's not going to sell you cams you can get for $150 AND keep your original cams. That's why there is a CORE CHARGE.
Here's some info on the stock 4.7L cams:
The cams are each driven by a separate chain, each of which are driven off an idler, in the approximate location of the ol'LA's cam sprocket. This idler sprocket, in turn, is driven from the crank in typical pushrod practice timing set fashion. The camshafts themselves are radical - although not in lift or duration. These are truck engines, after all: 0.443" lift on the intake, and 0.429" on the exhaust, duration is 244 degrees intake, 254 on the exhaust, partially compensating for the smallish exhaust valves. Overlap is only 18 degrees. This is an emissions, and torquer motor, remember.
What makes the cams radical isn't the timing, but the construction. They are hollow steel tubes with the individual lobes, of powdered metal, sinter-bonded in place. In fact, the cams, being hollow, are used to bring oil to the intake lobes, which have oiling holes. Cam (valve) covers are cast magnesium."
Taken from: http://dodgeram.org/tech/gas/Cammer/4_7_v8.html
And credit/reference to:
This entire work is copyright 1999 by Richard Ehrenberg and Harris Publications, Inc., New York, NY. Used by permission which may be revoked at any time. Retransmission, copying, posting elsewhere, distributing printed copies, and all similar activities are prohibited. Protected by US copyright laws and international copyright treaties. Violations will be prosecuted aggressively."
And no, it's not a violation of copyright law b/c I gave the originator the credit deserved, not claiming it as my own ;)
And also, the 4.7L's do not have a great idle from the factory. How many posts have you seen here about bad idle, stalling, and idleing low while in drive (all while stock). Makes you think, doesn't it?
Also, I don't actually know if the stock Jeep HO Cam specs are already listed at .050" lift or if they are seat-to-seat. I think those numbers are already at .050", but if anyone knows otherwise, then please let me know.
K&N Drop in AF (CAI during summer months)
True Dual exhaust and removed third cat
HO Cams & HO Intake
FASTMAN 70mm TB
Autolite 3923 Plugs
TPS @ .76 VDC
IAT Adjuster Mod
14.52@94.2 MPH at Silver Dollar Raceway
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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/10/2003
00:25:10
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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demon.. i already read that article along time ago,thanks anyways,i already talked to hughes and those cams are stock,ho cam and their hot street model.they take cores and rebuild them. i already been through it with them...and the stalling is attributed to the pcm,i know i had the flash at the dealer done,because i had that problem ,also i confirmed it cause they put a sticker on the pcm before i took it out to have kenne bell optimizer 2 done.those numbers you give are not at 0.50 lift. HUGHESENGINES,you buy the cam and then they credit your card back the difference i already have done it before in past when i had my dakota, i now have a ram.i have been through it before with them many times.again they ARE stock, H.O. and Her0820t Hot Street.
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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
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3/10/2003
00:34:45
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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also on hughes site youll see where it says grind number and it says
STOCK FACTORY
FACTORY H.O.
HER0820T
to me stock factory means well stock factory and factory ho means well factory.
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dodgetomahawk
Dodge Dakota
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3/10/2003
00:50:35
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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your numbers 200/.480
212/.436 and lobe of 11
these look like krcperformance numbers from marty.funny i asked marty about the test truck with failure on the 206 cam over 4500 rpm and he said it was the test trucks fault only.said it was posted wrong on web site,i wonder what else is posted wrong.you cant have low lobe seperation of 11 or you will have to reroute the vacum to map from tb to manifold to make up the signal if you get stallin or rough idle.
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
3/10/2003
10:11:22
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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Will someone post the stock factory cam specs as listed by Dodge/Mopar? The numbers on Hughes site don't jive with what I've got at home (I'm at work now, so I can't look at it right now).
K&N Drop in AF (CAI during summer months)
True Dual exhaust and removed third cat
HO Cams & HO Intake
FASTMAN 70mm TB
Autolite 3923 Plugs
TPS @ .76 VDC
IAT Adjuster Mod
14.52@94.2 MPH at Silver Dollar Raceway
|
Texas Todd
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/10/2003
10:28:19
|  RE: 4.7 injectors
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Idle? Idle is fine on my 4.7, with the stock cams, and with the stock HO cams! Must be that darn manual tranny! My truck always idles smooth as silk, NO death flash, and still got the stock plugs, reg gas.
This is a great post though, keep it going.
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azdak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/10/2003
22:27:49
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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i have also researched the injector issue during the turbo install, and alex is correct by the way the same p/n. for the 2002 dak is the same for the cobra R mustang 24# oval shaped connector. i dont seem to see your year so i can only speculate it is in fact a 2002. the key is fuel delivery rate i run a 880 liter hr 100psi in line pump with an fmu and have no problems if your worried put it on a sniffer ar invest in a air/fuel ratio guage at the rate your going you will need it when you go FORCED INDUCTION anyway like they say injection is nice but id rather be blown lol
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
3/11/2003
20:20:44
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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My truck had no failures over 4500 RPM, so I guess it was the test truck. Also, can no one find and post the stock seat to seat or advertised 4.7L cam numbers? Now I can't find them at my house. Damn moving my office!
K&N Drop in AF (CAI during summer months)
True Dual exhaust and removed third cat
HO Cams & HO Intake
FASTMAN 70mm TB
Autolite 3923 Plugs
TPS @ .76 VDC
IAT Adjuster Mod
14.52@94.2 MPH at Silver Dollar Raceway
|
Dana Duhamel
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/22/2003
21:25:07
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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My friend has an 01 dakota 4.7 5spd w/kenne-bell
supercharger. Heads are ported, polished, and 3 angle valve job. Has kenne-bell headers, third converter removed, full 3in exhaust w flowmaster delta flow race muffler. Installed apexi super air fuel controller. After many dyno runs truck runs extreemly lean nomatter what afc is adjusted to. Map sensor is maxed out at 2900rpm so he gets the same fuel at 5500 rpm or 3000rpm. Trying to find much bigger injectors because afc can reduce fuel amounts at lower rpms/throttle demands. Can anybody help. By the way his tps used to be set at .7v. When you install a afc it will tell you that at wide open throttle you are at 84.9% throttle. Computer doesn't see wide open so it runs really lean and cooks your supercharged engine. He has been there done that!
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graphiteRT
R/T
4/23/2003
11:16:20
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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Dana, WOT starts at ~73% TPS, so your PCM is still seeing open loop. The problem is probably twofold, your computer doesn't understand boost and it's not mapped for the higher fuel needs in the WOT tables.
I don't see any mention of auxiliary fuel control. It's not likely that you'll get sufficient fuel delivery out of the stock 8 injectors.
The Apexi stuff is highly suspect. I've yet to see data from anyone I would trust. There were somey dyno graphs posted recently that were flawed. Other than that, haven't seen anyone post proof than -ANY- MAP signal tweaking box is effective long term, especially on the later stuff.
Finally, I would not be putting too much stock into injector flow figures posted on a site, including the jeepsunlimited deal. Those numbers are suspect and mostly collected from publications of one type or another. I talk with people who have actually taken injectors rated at 21 # who had them flowed and found the true 43.5 psi or 3 bar flow rates to be about 2 lbs off. There are way too many assumptions and speculation made about those posted numbers. A real engine tuner wouldn't trust any of that stuff, he'd get them flowed to be sure or only buy from a known source.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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Chipster
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/23/2003
11:55:41
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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You guys have to quite looking at the Hughes
site and start calling Dave. The cams he is
offering have not been tested yet. He is still
trying to find a set of springs that will live. So if
you call him and order his hot cams and
modified intake manifold, it's no sale. These
products have been on his web site for
months now, but he does not have the time to
finish there development.
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azdak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/26/2003
21:23:30
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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dana,
i see no mention of a fuel pump the injectors are working on the stock fuel system pump? this is going to lean it out you need much more fuel i dont think the stock pump will supply the demand.
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graphiteRT
R/T
4/26/2003
23:20:41
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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A stock fuel pump, assuming it's in good condition, can handle more than most think. You have to be in the 350-400 rwhp range before it becomes an issue.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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azdak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/27/2003
23:23:45
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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graphiteRT,
i would agree the stock pump will run more than most think. but the fuel pressure shut off will not if its kicking out at 49 psi then thats all you get. i elected to use an external fuel pump setup the stock pump will flow enough to handle the demand of the hp/hv pump. so i think it has capabilities. i do not know how to change the pressure switch or even adjust it if you know can you please tell me thanks
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graphiteRT
R/T
4/28/2003
00:41:18
| RE: 4.7 injectors
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There is no need to run anything more than the stock 49 psi if the computer is remapped properly.
Bob
'01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s, Featured in April '03 Sport Truck, Viper 4 wheel discs
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