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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2002
09:14:29
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 Subject: 4.7l Which Oil
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My wife's new cherokee has the 4.7 (non HO) and the manual states to run 10w30 oil... In my truck 2000 4.7 (partial HO) it says to run 5w30. So should I be running 10W or 5W in them???
I am thinking the 10W will make for a longer living engine at the expense of a HP or two...
Am I correct in thinking this?
thanks,
Chris
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Dak03ta
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2002
09:57:33
|  RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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The owner's manual states to use 5W30, unless you drive in extremely hot weather (100+).
My roommate has a Ford Escape that takes 5W20. I would go with what the manual states. I would think DC cares more about warranty work (longevity) than they do about HP. There probably is no gain with using 10w.
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2002
13:59:19
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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Exactly, her manual states to run 10W30 (preferred) when it is above 32 degrees or so. I have heard that thicker oil makes for a longer living happier engine but at the same time this thicker oil is going to use up a few HP moving it around. So my question is whether it is better to run the 5W or 10W oil for longer engine life and better protection...
Chris
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JMII
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2002
17:55:22
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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I'm running 5W30 Mobil One while towing in the FL heat and no problems yet... but I'm only on my 2nd oil change. I figure the "lightness" of 5W is offset by the fact that the synthetic holds up better. I do want the manual tells me and keep reciepts for warranty work/issues later. Hope I do not need the 7 year warranty but I'm happy I got it.
- John
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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9/30/2002
18:25:45
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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If you are useing a good synthetic like Amsoil or Mobil 1 you should be OK with 5w30. I will not put anything lower then 10W30 in anything I own unless I plan on driveing into an area close to the artic cirle. 10W30 Synthetic usualy will pump down to -34 to -64 depending on the brand. The only time DC recomends 5W30 in the 4.7 is if temptatures are going to be lower then 32 degree F for extended periods of time. The only part of that engine clearanced for 5w30 is the oil pump! The rest of the engine is clearanced to handle everything from right up to 15W50! The HO 4.7 has a different crank and crank bearing,different rist pins, pistons and con. rod bearings. The clearances are probably a little different but I do not know this to be a fact. Useing 10W30 in your engine will not void warranty! If it makes you feel better you can follow those directions it should not matter to much with a good synthetic but I would by 10W30 and use it year round!
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What?
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2002
11:34:52
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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I have a 2000 QC 4.7 and my manual states that 5W30 is the recommended oil unless driving in 100+ temperatures. In fact, the manual even states that 5W30 will give me the best fuel economy in my 4.7. 10W30 is recommended for the 2.5,3.9,&5.9 engines only.
So, DC DOES indeed recommend 5W30!
So Sandman, is 10W30 still what I should be using?
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2002
11:42:42
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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My 2000 4.7 manual states the same and so far I ahve used 5w30 exzclusively for the last 72k miles... HOWEVER my wifes new 2002 4.7 grand cherokee stated that the 10W30 is preferred. this is why I posted the question...
Chris
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2002
18:27:23
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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Well I am going to guess you are not a Tech. and never have been! The owners manual is intended to give very basic operateing and care instructions for a vechile. The owners manual is not the all inclusive source of information for your vechiles needs. If the owners manual was so good they would not go through the hassel of translateing and printing Service Manuals or Unit Repair Manuals. Several magazine articles have sited the fact that the only part of the engine that is clearanced for 5W30 is the oil pump. I have also looked at the clearances for all the bearinging in the 4.7 and compared them to the clearances for all of the other engines used in the Dak. I guess you can not do that though if the owners manual is your only source of information. Hell I am pretty certain he wanted a professional's opinion as he gave the owners manuals recomendation in his opening post.2001 Dak Service Manual Group 9 Page 186 Fig. 97 clearly indicates that from 0-100++++ degrees F 10W30 is preferred. Crank bearing clearance on 4.7 .018-.052 mm or .0008-.0021 in.; 3.9 V6 Crank bearing clearance .013-.056 mm or .0005-.0022 in. ; 5.9 V8 is same as 3.9 V6.
So if bearing clearances are almost identical and materials are the same then why the difference??? One reason is that they want to make sure your engine wears out sooner. The other reason is for C.A.F.E. standars and for emissions. Remember anything past 3 years 36,000 or if you are one of the lucky one 7 years 70,000 is costing them money!!! It means they could have built it cheaper and made the dealers more money in service!!
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What?
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2002
21:39:23
|  RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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Sandman,
Thanks for the clarification, I was not trying to imply you were wrong, but just to make sure I was understanding your point correctly.
Looks like 10W30 is what I'll be using from now on! (Unless I take a drive to nothern Canada)
Gotta love it when the owner's manual gives you bogus information...
Thanks again!
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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10/01/2002
22:34:41
|  RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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I just re-read my post and it has a kind of angry tone to it. I apoligise. I have three little boys and at times I have to type fast and brief. This tend to translate to angry. That was not the nature of post. I almost wish they would not even give people owners manuals. They pay people that know nothing about cars $6 an hour to cut and paste from other owners manuals and sources to make an owners manual. Most do not even know what a spark plug is. I am not going to tell anyone what oil is best for their vechile but anyone that thinks 15W50 is going to cause your engine to self destruct or void warranty is just plain ill informed and should not be giveing advive on oil. Will 0W30 synthetic destroy your engine probably not! You realy need to base your oil on the temp. and driveing style you will be encountering over the next 3-4 months. Remeber that when DC decided on an oil weight to print on the cap they were assumeing that you were going to put the worst oil around like conventional 5W30 Quaker State in it and that you would throw it away at 150,000 miles. The thicker oils do not protect as well as thin oil at low load and shear levels but at high load and shear levels the protect better. This is why traditionaly a 20W50, 15W50, 30, 40, 60 wt oils have been used for towing and raceing applications. 0W and 5W oil are usualy used in race applications that see frequent rebuild like after each pass or after two to three races and this has just been in recent years. One theroy on oil is that a thin oil will flow to the hot spots sooner and disapate the heat faster. The other theory is that thicker oils will require more force to displace them thus protect the parts better form metal to metal contact. With synthetics some of this is silly. The hotest spots in an engine are around the piston crown and ring area; at 800-3000 degrees a 15w50 oil has no problem flowing and no oil can take those temps for long. Some would say well a thin oil pumps faster so you have fewer dry starts. Well synthetic can leave a film on engine parts for up to a month after shut down so the parts are never dry anyway. I have timed 5w30 v.s 10w30 and I have positive oil pressure instantly and full oil pressure on cold engine within 13 sec.
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Zeke
Dodge Dakota
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10/10/2002
20:47:09
|  RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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I just put Synthetic 5w-30 in my 4.7 and the idle speed went up I would estimate by the tach, about 25 or so rpm, so there must definately be less friction
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Fred Wilson
Dodge Dakota
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10/13/2002
02:37:51
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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After a 10,000 mile break-in period, I changed from the recommended 10-30 petroleum oil to Castrol 5-50 Syntech. My 2002 4.7 immediately began to show a 1.5 mpg increase in fuel economy. I figure that if this Castrol is good enough for the new Corvette motor it will work just fine in the Dakota.
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Gilberttribe
Dodge Dakota
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10/13/2002
17:07:55
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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As I understand it, the 30 in 5w30 or 10w30 refers to its viscosity properties at operating temperature. The 5 and 10 refer to the viscosity properties at cold temperatures. An SAE oil must have a kinematic viscosity at 100 degrees C of between 9.3 and 12.5 cSt. Therefore, according to the SAE classification of the oil, they are both 30 weight oils under operating temperatures, which is the vast majority of the vehicle's operating life. Therefore, the two grades of oil basically only differ at startup. Given everything else being equal, I prefer the oil that flows better at startup, especially since I live where it is below freezing in the morning 5 months out of the year.
OK, given my above argument, you could ask why I don't use 0w30 instead? I can't answer that. However, if thicker were better, then why not go with a pure monograde SAE 30 oil? Obviously, there is some optimum and I haven't seen enough information to show that 10w30 is that optimum so I'm sticking with the manual's recommendation in my environment.
I would like for someone to show me some actual tests or numbers to convince me that 10w30 is better for my engine and Dodge's manual is wrong. For instance, if I look at Mobil 1's data sheet for synthetic 0w30 and 10w30, what specs point to the fact that 10w30 is better? It isn't the pour point, flash point, VI, etc. Those numbers may not mean much in the real world, but they are the only hard numbers I have.
Thanks for the great information posted above.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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10/13/2002
20:03:45
|  RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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Gilberttribe, The differrence between a 5w30 convetional oil and a 10W30 convetional oil is huge. The 5W30 will have alot more VI and solvents then a 10W30. VI and solvents do nothing to protect your engine and will boil off much faster leaveing alot more deposits behind. The owners manual you referto is one of the worst sources for information. I sited what the Service manual for 2001 Dakota's states as the preferd oil for all temps from 0 to 100+++++++ degrees and it was not 5W30. I also listed crank bearing clearance's. The reason we do not use mono-grade very often any more is due to pump and flow issues at low temps. Every major oil company offers a synthetic and conventional multi weight high viscosity like 5W50,15W50, 15W40,20W50 oil. All you need to do is do an oil test of 5W30 and then use the same brand of 10W30 under same conditions. Oil testing does not lie!!!!
Fred Wilson, Corvettes do not come with 5W50 Castrol they come with Mobil-1 in 10W30. GM sells 10W30 and 15W50 Mobil-1. Dodge also uses Mobil-1 in the Viper.
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Gilberttribe
Dodge Dakota
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10/14/2002
13:30:01
|  RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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I know why we don't use monograde. My point was that you can't simply state that thicker is better because there are "pump and flow issues at low temps." Therefore, at startup, I agree that something less than 30 is better. Why is 10 optimum and 5 is not? Is that where the clearance numbers come in? If so, how do clearance numbers relate to oil viscosity? It is my understand that the 5 and 10 are relative numbers so I don't know how clearance factors into that equation. Obviously, I'm not a tech and I'm not trying to win any arguments.
My 2002 owner's manual states that 5w30 is the "preferred" grade. The owner's manual may be garbage, but it is all that I have other than numerous conflicting opinions.
I think an oil analysis is a good idea. I was planning to do a few anyway. Unfortunately, I won't have the results back from both tests for many months. I never cared what oil I used until we bought our 4x4 Dakota. Although I have had less than stellar results using Pennzoil in the past (clacking lifters at startup on a very well maintained 10 year old Mazda b2200 at 84K).
Would anyone care to post some oil analysis results? Sandman? I would really like to be able to compare my results with another stock 4.7L DAK. I'll gladly post mine once I get them. Just posting the main wear metal numbers, mileage, and mileage on oil would be helpful.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2002
18:15:47
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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The crank bearing clearance, oil pressure, and load are what determines what viscositys are ideal. THe clearance are almost identical to the old LA engines. If the clearances are the same then oil recomendations should be the same. So their is no reason that someone can not run a 20W50 or 50wt so long as the aprop. API recomendations match. How much quicker do you think a 5W30 is going to flow through your engine then a 10W30. No matter how thin an oil is it can not protect at start up by flowing faster. The only way it can protect at start up is by clinging to the parts after shut down. The engine has to be running to drive the oil pump and produce pressure. The whole time you engine is running before positive oil pressure is reached it is being protect by the oil left on the parts when you shut it down. Thin oil drain off from parts much faster then thicker oils. Thinner oils have more solvents and VI's in them so you have lower percentage of oil for any given volume left on the parts to protect from metal to metal contact. So if a 5W30 flowed to the parts 50%-70% faster then the 10w30 it might be worth it but anything less then that and you are giveing up too much shearing protection at high loads. I use 10W30 Mobil 1 and Amsoil 10w30. Both take 12-13 seconds to reach full pressure and 1.5 seconds to show positive oil pressure when cold. When my truck was new the factory oil wich is a very thin oil 5W30 or thinner took the same amount of time to pump. Their is a reason we use greas in hub bearing and not a thin coat of 0W30.While thin oil especial synthetics do have their place thin conventional oil are nothing but trouble!!!
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
18:06:53
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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I droped a sample last week end. I had to change my oil sooner then I wanted to. My Mom and Dad just bought a house so I wanted to change it before we started moveing them in the next couple of months. I did not want to clean the rental garage and then make a mess and have to do it again. I still have not made it to the post office to drop it off yet. As soon as I get the results I will post them. These results will be for my control oil. 10W30 Mobil 1 . With winter upon us I do not want to test Amsoil under such different conditions so I will wait till spring or summer to run Amsoil through. They use alot of salt on the roads in my State and the temp. would be so low that my wife will not be driveing it much with the kids! I am also interested in haveing people run oil samples. I wanted to start a data base that would report all sample from this site. Type oil used, brand, weight, number of months in crank case, hours or miles......
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garrett
Dodge Dakota
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10/17/2002
11:23:48
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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i was wondering witch oil i should use i have a 2000 4.7. but i live in key west fl. and often make short trips of less than 5 miles at a time and no more than 40 mph rarely up to 60 for 7 - 8 miles the temp is in the 80's all the time with humity up and down. i know it is bad for my truck in all but i will be leaving back to cali in jun
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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10/17/2002
11:54:11
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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I would say a high quality 10w30 like castrol or synthetic.
Chris
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Gilberttribe
Dodge Dakota
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10/17/2002
15:16:49
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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I'm not jumping back into the 5w30 versus 10w30 debate again until I have oil analysis results, which I will post and contribute to Sandman's database. However, based on what Sandman posted, and your warm weather, I would lean toward a synthetic 10w30.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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10/17/2002
18:08:55
| RE: 4.7l Which Oil
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Here is another way of looking at the whole weight issue. A vechile with rod or main nock will be very load with 5W30 in it. If you drain the 5W30 out and fill it with 20W50 or 50Wt. then fire it up the nock will be alot quiter. The reason it is so much quiter is because the thicker oil is cushioning the parts better. It is harder for the parts to force the thicker oil out from between the bearings.So they hit together softer. Under ideal conditions a thiner synthetic oil will protect just fine. But under extreem conditions like heavy towing, hard high RPM launch.........the parts will be shock loaded and will try to contact. The more resistance the oil has to being squezzed out the better.
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