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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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8/03/2002
10:50:33
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 Subject: RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Hersbird,I have to disagree!!!! I have seen plenty of OHC engines go 300,000 with out being touched. OHC engines do not blow oil at 150,000 anymore then all push rod engines blow oil at 80,000 miles. Every engine has its durability limits but maintenance and driving style have a lot to do with this. I have never seen an American OHV engine make it to 200,000 with out burning a lot of oil. I have seen thousands of OHC Jap engines do this with very little oil burning. I have seen OHC and OHV engines booth Jap and American make it to 300,000 with out being touched. I have to admit though that the Jap engines were usually running much better then their American counter part. All timing chains should be changed at 120,000 miles and all timing belts should be changed by 60,000 max. Were you put the camshaft has absolutely nothing to do with chain stretch!!!!! The advantage to OHC is that the cams are always lubricated and do not depend on oil splash for lubrication and you also do not have push rods and lifter to fail. Lifter and push rods have always had high failure rates on production vehicles. They normally make it to about 36,000 – 80,000 and then the lifters start failing. The 4.7 is a rather conventional design minus lifters and push rods!! The block is cast iron and most engines today have aluminum heads. The new Duramax diesel has aluminum heads!!! Most modern diesels are over head cam. The reason that the LA engines are being phased out are due to packaging and emission standards. The LA series engines can no longer compete with other engines and produce the HP needed to compete and still meet emissions. The LA series engines have always had problems with leaking gaskets, oil flow to upper valve train and lifter bores cracking with high lift cams with high-pressure springs. The LA heads will not flow as well as the competitions small block heads either. I think that the LA sieres engine were good for their time but they just can not compete. If you compare them to what other companies are offering they are just not up to par. Dodge need to inject some new life into their Truck line. Have you noticed how many new Rams are just sitting on the lot???? I know you could not get me to buy one at all until the get the 5.7 in it. It really pi$$’s me off that they brought the new design to market without the new hemi!!!! The only weak link in the 4.7 is it's pistons. The design is flawed and our engines will start to burn oil around 120,000 to 150,000 miles just like clock work. THe good news is that TRW has already designed a replacement piston that solves alot of this!!! The block on our 4.7 is alot stronger then the the LA blocks and our mains are alot stiffer as well. You can get a forged steel crank as well if you get a HO 4.7.
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WallyR
Dodge Dakota
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8/03/2002
16:13:51
|  RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Sandman, I couldn't agree more. Especially the 4.7's bottom end-no bearing caps for me, thank you. I love the idea of having a full girdle keeping my crank in line. Can't wait for some serious performance parts to hit the market in a year or two!
Wally
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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8/03/2002
16:36:17
|  They're BOTH good!
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I doubt there will be any difference in reliability between the two engines unless you are talking about well after 100k miles. If you are talking about those kinds of mileages.... after driving 100k miles - just the difference in fuel mileage would mean that the rebuild on the 4.7 is virtually free!
I think one very big question is what will the piston story be with the new 5.7L engine?
The 4.7's piston design was DCs answer to some of the emissions requirements. Will they handle the same requirements in the same way on the other new engines?
I don't have any doubt that my 4.7 engine will need rebuilding before it gets to that 120K number... but I seriously doubt that I could push ANY engine this hard and still expect it to last that long.
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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8/03/2002
19:10:34
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Speaking from a 4.7L owner, the 5.9 better be more reliable! Does that mean the 4.7 is not reliable, no. In constrast of which one is MORE reliable -- doesn't matter by how much -- I would have to say the 5.9 is, or at least should be.
The 4.7s have not been around long enough to find out anyhow;. in long term reliability we have no idea yet. You can always say one is more reliable than the other, but that's in general. On the other hand, it should be looked at more on a personal base.
The people who buy 5.9s are usually die hard Dodge fans and know how an engine works and take pride in it to take care of it. However, the 4.7s are used by a whole lot larger base of people now. Many who just needed a truck, looks pretty, and etc. These are not the same as your average R/T driver. So it's easy to see that there would be more mishaps and problems of the 4.7L engine if you were to look at a set of general statistics.
Hrm, I hope that made some sense...
-Mike
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WallyR
Dodge Dakota
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8/03/2002
19:28:26
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Well, if it's any consolation I do know this. DCX has a durability spec that they subject all of their internally manufactured parts as well as suppliers parts to. It is an accelerated wear test that last for 1900 hours that they claim equates to 100,000 miles. There are pass criteria in this spec that state that the component tested cannot have degraded in performance by certain limits. I haven't seen the engine test criteria, I'll try to look it up for everyone but at a minimum we should all get at least 100K without any oil burning, large power losses, etc..
Wally
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Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
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8/03/2002
21:43:41
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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By far the biggest experiences I have had with Japanese OHC motors were the Mitsu 3.0's that were used so extensively by Dodge from 88-95. They were really hard pressed not to be blowing oil out the tail pipe by 100,000 miles. They were hard pressed not to have head and headgasket problems by 150,000. Toyota v-6's from the same era have the same head problems, but probably even sooner. The timing chain on a LA motor is all of about the diameter of a soccer ball, it makes one simple turn and comes back, it costs about $30. No way a LA motor needs its chain replaced at 120,000. The older belts on OHC motor did really HAVE to be replaced that soon or there were major consequiences, The chains may last longer but you better dig in there and replace it befor it fails or you will have bigger problems. When the chain fails on a LA motor it usually will still run and even on a complete failure doesn't harm anything else. The bottom end of a 360 may not be as strong as a 4.7 (that is questionable) but seeing as there are no problems with the "weaker" LA bottom end then what's the point of having a stronger one? I agree the new Ram needed thet new 5.7 hemi but I still stand by the fact the new 5.7 hemi is really deep down a LA with a different style heads, just like deep down, the 426 hemi was a RB with different heads. They could have used some of the production ready Mopar Performance LA stuff on a 360 and gotten the 345 HP the new 5.7 hemi has without killing gas mileage much, the problem is the emissions and the want to IMPROVE gas mileage. So if emissions and gas mileage are your primary concerns then by all means the 4.7 is tops, but for power and reliability the 5.9 is still better in my opnion, not by any huge amount, but measurable. These same arguments raged forever when ford switched over from the 5.0 to the OHC motor, that debate probably is still raging and it's been 3 times as long!
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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8/03/2002
23:06:56
|  RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Hersbird, I just checked out some TSB's for 5.9 in Dodge trucks from 1982-2002 and a few problems keep creeping in over and over again. Engine Knock/Ping, exessive oil consumption, and coolant system over heating and transmission problems with the bands and solinoids. That's reliability for ya. I could not find a single TSB for my 2001 Dak Quad Cab 4.7 4x4? The LA engines were not designed to be a truck engine. They were designed to be a cheap low performance competitor for chevys 1955 V8.They were designed to be car engines. The 5.9 is alittle different in that it was not offered prior to 1972 or 1973 but the basic design was offered before then. The reason you want a stiff lower end is to prevent crankshaft flex and block flex. The more either one flex's the sooner your cylinders wear into an oval shape and fail to seal well. It also stress's all of the parts. The 4.7 was designed to be a truck motor. You know I once pulled a 4600 lb 4x4 SUV uphill into a shop with a 5 HP Sear's crafts man rideing lawn mower! That about says it all. If you want to pull a 15,000 lb boat buy a full size with a 5.9 Cummins. This may come as a suprise to you but the Dakota is a Midsize pichup truck. Their is not anything in the bottom end that has not been time tested.Their is no new techology in this engine!!! Everthing in this engine has been used by DC in past engines either 4,6,8 or 10 cylinder engines. The only thing that might not have been used on prior engines is the sintered metal cam lobes on a hollow steel shaft but it has been done by other makes! You make it sound like DC put a plutonium reactor under the hood. I could see this much protest if they put an all aluminum block engine without steel sleeves in the truck but they did not do this. I doubt that you realy want to bring head gaskets into this. The 318,340,360,383 were notorious(sp) for eating up head gaskets proir to the serious de-tuning after the gas crunch and emission laws. This might strike you as odd but my family was a Mopar family before it was a Toyota family. I still drive Mopar products and like them. I am also truthful and objective.
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WallyR
Dodge Dakota
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8/04/2002
00:04:38
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Add to that the fact that they used the same OHC technology in the 2.2 twenty years ago. Plus the rods are sintered powder metal with cracked caps. Nothing new there either.
"When the chain fails on a LA motor it usually will still run and even on a complete failure doesn't harm anything else."
Hmmm...I don't think so. If the cam isn't turning and the crank is you're not going anywhere but to the parts store...
Don't compare timing belts to chains-that's apples to oranges. Everybody knows that belts suck.
I could go on but it's not worth it.
wally
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Hersbird
Dodge Dakota
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8/05/2002
01:05:27
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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The most common LA timing chain "failure: is that it wears and slips a cog knocking off timing, I have seen them run pretty well considering how far off this thows cam timing, but it didn't happen until the motor had over 300,000 miles on it without rebuild. So you are saying that Dodge changed all of the design problems that crept up in their 3.0 OHC v-6's after 100,000+ miles when they designed the 4.7? You just said there's nothing new in there... In my experience the LA motor was the most durable motor EVER produced by Chrysler, with the slant 6 being a close second. The design is vastly superior in the durability standpoint to the old chevy small block, and anything ever made by Ford. I've had apart 318's with over 250,000 miles on them where the cylinders were not oval or out of round at all, all that was needed was a hone and new rings. If the 4.7 is even stronger in the lower end then hopefully this will be the same durability you will see from the short block. As I have said before my concern is more in the timing chain, valve guides, and heads on the 4.7. Personally I wish my 360 would ping, at least I'd know it was making the most of it's feul curve, I can't get it to ping even with 89 octain and a MP computer. Also I have removed the clutch fan all together and even with the 100+degree days we've been having the stock electric fan with the A/C on sitting in traffic will still keep it at 1/3 gauge. Then again my 360 is still hardly broken in so who knows. In the past my Mopar small blocks have been indestructible. I know I've tried to destroy a 318 I had in a Sebring so I could put the 440 I had in it! The 440 ended up being sold 2 years later when the failure never came.
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DEATH GENE
Dodge Dakota
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10/25/2002
06:00:06
|  RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9???????
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WHOAH!!! Hey Chris! About what you said on how your 4.7 kicks so much ass and all because you go 100mph... Im not bitching but I have a full size 2001 Dodge Ram quad cab 4X4 Off Road Package that weighs 5,600 lbs, with a stock 5.9 and Low 4.10 Gear Ratio with no aftermarket improvements what so ever! And I get this Black Beast up to 115 mph every time I go across TOWN! And its only an Auto 4 speed. And again I have not even opened up the exhaust yet, 30K And still drives like a dream. Yes many of you might reply and say its Impossible because of the Gov to go that fast, But it is easy to over ride it (again no modifications have been done) but I know how to get past it Iv worked at a Dodge Dealer for Years. I would much prefer the 5.9 over a 4.7 But I say to those future Dakota owners to wait for the 5.7 and Be Unstoppable.
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DEATH GENE
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
10/25/2002
06:11:58
|  RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Did I mention I had 300lbs of Guitar Equipment in the back with no cover, lacking the clear un-congested roads we used to have in Phoenix AZ, This is only achieved by passing cars and going in and out of lanes to be able to reach the speed, But thats why they call me the Death Gene... ;)
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
10/25/2002
10:19:37
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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You mean that's why you call yourself DEATH GENE...
K&N Drop in AF
True Dual exhaust and removed third cat
HO Cams & HO Intake
Modified TB
Autolite 3923 Plugs
TPS @ .76 VDC
IAT Adjuster Mod
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Death Alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/25/2002
10:36:51
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Wow. Your stock Ram sounds waaay impressive. Going 115 weaving in & out of traffic? Wow. Tell us how you do it!! That's something I've never heard of! Your ram must be very reliable, what with the whole "Stock 5.9 Motor" that you have!!
So you have figured out how to override the governor to make your Ram go 115??? Every day on the way across town??? Excitement!! How do you override the governor? Since you work at a Dodge Dealer, tell us the secret???
I am still trying to figure out how to get my (not very reliable 4.7 powered) Dakota over 125 without hitting anybody from behind!!! I need to know all your secrets!!!
Crazy Wacko Death Alex
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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10/25/2002
11:20:57
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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I don't know if this was mentioned or not yet but the design life (average abuse, # of miles before the engine needs to be gone into):
5.9: 125,000 miles
4.7: 150,000 miles
Being in engineering I felt this was a good enough reason to buy a 4.7 in it's forst year of Dakota Production (2000).
Take it for what it is worth.
Chris
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DEATH GENE
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
10/25/2002
13:14:06
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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NO DEMON DAKOTA, THATS WHAT SOME CALL ME. You wouldn't Understand, Its a DEATH Thing,. hehehee ( Oh Yes And Little Alex? The way you dont hit every body else from behind when driving 125mph is first Pull your head out of your ass... Then putt your eyes on the GOD DAMN ROAD YA GOD DAMN 16 YEAR OLD GIRL DRIVIN F*UCK!! Oh and there is a difference between moving in and out of lanes to achieve a speed, and Weaving like a complete f*ucking moron. And no I don't work at a Dodge Dealer any longer, To over ride the Gov is very simple when approaching 105mph let completely off the accelerator. After decreasing 3 to 5 Mph Floor it again. For some reason it continues to accelerate it must be pressure sensitive or in other words confuses it somehow and immediately it passes the restriction. (I only assume I don't know) I only tried this because a Tech at the place I used to work at explained it, I don't even know when The Gov is supposed to kick in. I ASSUME BEFORE 110??? So I thought I had override IT??? Im not a tech I don't know technicall idiosyncrasies But I got to 115 and It would have gone faster had it NOT BEEN CONGESTED If You didnt Get that last time. I don't know why the f*uck you people have to take everything as a God damn insult. I guess Im a newbie and havnt earned the right yet. No matter what people will find something to bitch about. My 74 Ramcharger with 35" MTRs hardly Hits 100 But off the line I can Beat any 4.7 Dak with its 5.9...... ;) And Dont take any Offense of anything I have said, If you knew me you wouldn't give a sh*it and you'd laugh it off without a second thought. I might be here a while or Maybe not. If you wanna fight all the time, .fine. Im sure you will come back bitching, They always do....
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DEATH GENE
Dodge Dakota
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10/25/2002
13:19:35
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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And I didn't say I took that rout every day, and If your 4.7 Isn't reliable thats not my prob bud. Get a Push Rod next time. Later
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Death Alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/25/2002
13:31:14
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Maybe your governor is just set at 117 mph like the majority of the Dakotas around here. Maybe you're just a genius. I dunno.
Personally I didn't take your rant as an insult, but for a newbie (as you put it), you sure did come in here flappin your mouth about your bone-stock Ram goin' 115 every day across TOWN. And you were kinda flappin your mouth about how "they" call you Death GENE. And you kinda dug up a 2-month old post to brag about how you speed across town everyday with your uncovered guitar flappin in the wind.
And we all kinda thought it was funny. So, we started making all these jack-ass posts back at you. Sorry bout that & stuff.......
I am your personal GOD DAMN 16 YEAR OLD GIRL DRIVIN F*CK,
Crazy Wacko Death Alex
http://www.dragtruk.com/ENTRIES/0F64H9L1P5IL.html
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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10/26/2002
11:07:00
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Hersbird, Have next to no experince with the Mitsu 3.0 liter V6 so I will take your information as true. While Toyota did have a problem with some 3.0 V6's the problem was greatly over blown. The problem did not persist very long at all. This is the only engine that was ever plagued from time to time with a problem that would pop up every couple of years and it was almost always isolated to one lot of engines. The problem is definately not as bad as an engine from the late 50's still haveing this same problem 50 years latter. They have replaced that engine with a 3.4V6 Liter and a 4.0 V6 that are problem free.To be honest with you one of my favorite engines is the Slant6 it has to be the most durable American made engine ever built!!! THey will routinely go 200,000 to 300,000 miles with out much fuss so long as you keep them oiled and maintained. I have no idea how you could rate the the slant six behing the LA engines. You must have some strong Bias toward LA engines!!!!
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yates-in-DE
GenIII
10/26/2002
11:39:43
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Alex, ya look a little ragged for a GOD DAMN 16 YEAR OLD GIRL DRIVIN F*CK sittin there on that Starting Line. Lifes sure been hard on Ya. 
I drive Like The DEATH GENE every day also, but I have a 4.7L, UM well not like him, I think 115 MPH is for Sissies, I like the Speedo buried.
I really like the 4.7L and it has been more than reliable enough with 6,000 plus miles at or above what you see there. The truck has a little over 10,000 miles on it but only 6,000 miles like that.
Later,
MyVW Killer
Lynn
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Wacko Alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/26/2002
12:10:52
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Yeah, well, I forgot to shave my 16 YEAR OLD GIRL DRIVIN FACE that morning..... oh well. I just wish the photographer had her flash aimed a little better so you could see the sidewalls all wrinkled on my DOT's.
Not that it matters, I buried my speedo on the way to work this morning, too. Driving through downtown Atlanta.
Of course, you understand I was waaay nervous since my unreliable unproven new-tech non-pushrod 4.7 heap has 58,000+ miles on it...... no tellng when it's gonna develop that dreaded Chevrolet Piston Slap that everybody's all worried about.
Thank goodness I was able to make it all the way to work without the reliability of those bullet-proof 5.9 motors.
Hahahaha
GIRL-DRIVIN F*CK Wacko Death Alex
http://www.dragtruk.com/ENTRIES/AZCXKURWOFJD.html
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DEATH GENE
Dodge Dakota
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10/26/2002
20:27:16
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH F*UCK YEA THATS F*UCKIN FUNNY, OK WELL I SEE... I GUESS NEXT TIME I WILL TRY FOR 120,(Atleast)..... And like I said I didn't have the room to go any faster. But I will, and maybe your right I might be wrong when the Gov engages we will see next time. heheheeheeeee. you Dakota F*ucks kill me
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DEATH GENE
Dodge Dakota
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10/26/2002
20:33:05
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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1 More thing. If your 4.7 Is so unreliable and unproven why dont you get a 5.9 Wacko Alex Girly Dakota F*uck?????? Later
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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10/27/2002
09:04:27
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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I still can not find a single TSB for my 2001 4.7 Quad Cab. I can find them for the 3.9, 5.2 and 5.9 for 2001 Dodge Dakota's. That pretty much says it all. When a new engine is more reliable then one that a company has had close to 50 years to get right we have a serious design flaw. The new Hemi 5.7 is the engine that DC should have built 10 years ago to replace all the LA engines!!! The only reason they are building it is because the 4.7 is expensive to build. They need cheap cheap cheap horse power. Now that they have seen that Chevy can still make great sales with push rod designs alot of companys are probably going to take a step back in design to keep cost down. If the customer is not demanding something you do not give it to him unless legislation forces your hand.
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street guy
Dodge Dakota
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10/27/2002
10:17:20
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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hersbird I gotta 3.0 in a 92 mini-van with 218,000 on the clock, my 16 year old son drives it to scholl every day, about 8 miles one way, across town to a private school, changed the oil every 3-3100 miles except durring 3 trips to colorado. I check the oil level at the beginning of every change, and it has yet to be down more than 5/8ths of a quart. Still running on the original head gaskets too, altho once when the pvc valve stuck closed I blew out the cam seals and valve cover gaskets due to the extreme pressure build up. By the way it still gets 19 mpg around town, and 26 on the hiway.
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Dumbass hater
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2003
11:08:37
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Would you guys please hurry up and roll ur damn 100mph+ P.O.S. so you'll shut the hell up. Or better yet crash into a bus load of little kids on their way to school, so you can say you hit 125mph on your morning commute. F'kn morons!
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Just Go Away
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2003
11:30:44
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Dear Mr. Hater,
I want to thank you for dragging open this thread from 3 months ago just to call people names. That really shows us that you take the high moral ground while spewing your hatred online.
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Brad
Dodge Dakota
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1/19/2003
23:14:36
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Throw in my 2 cents. First off I think the slant 6 is the most reliable engine ever made. They were almost indesructable. On the TSB comments, I believe most of those were due to EFI and not the basic mechanics of the engine. The LA's are very reliable but have run their course. They just can't get the fuel mileage out of that design. The 4.7 is a very good design minus the piston issue. I don't think engines have been the major issue for dodge anyways. I'm waiting to see how the tranny holds up.
As for the mitsu 3.0L, most of them burnt oil badly and blew head gaskets as early as 60000 miles (from experience). But chrysler bought these engines off of Mitsu and didn't have anything to do with the design.
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.alex.
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2003
08:57:10
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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I would tend to say that the diesel engines in Over The Road tractor-trailer trucks (hundreds of thousands of miles per year, as opposed to 100,000 miles in 10 years) are far more reliable than the infamous Slant 6 motor. Sorry to slap around the Leaning Tower of Power, but it's certainly NOT the most reliable engine ever made.
Mr. Hater, I just hope that the school bus that I hit on the way to work is carrying YOUR children.....
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Brad
Dodge Dakota
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1/20/2003
10:17:01
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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Alright, I'll give you that. I'll clarify, the most reliable gasoline engine made. No argument the cummins diesel in our beloved rams has one of the best reputations across the board. Agricultural, commerical, doesn't matter.
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rusty
Dodge Dakota
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2/16/2003
20:44:34
| RE: which is more reliable 4.7 or 5.9?
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I owne a 2000 dakota with a 4.7. I am wondering what type of pistons I have. Forged or Cast. The reason is I am spraying 100hp shot of nitrous and need to know. I have a larger tb,flowmaster muffler, cold air intake, 392 gear, and a nitrous express kit. I installed a 2 degree colder plug. I want to spray 150 but I am not sure if my stock pistons will hold it. Please help
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