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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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6/21/2002
20:29:27
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 Subject: HO CAM's
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I exchanged emails with a friend that is a engineer at DC and has access to other engineer's from DC today.My friend is in powertrain. He told me that the HO Cam's and Intake will not do much for us with out the heads. He said that you will mostly see a shift in the power band and maybe 10 HP gain at wheels at higher rpms with a loss at the bottom. (This does not take into acount other after market modification.) He recommends waitng for more radical after market cams and the HO heads and intake. He said that the intake realy would not do much with out the heads. He recommended just doing the cams if you do not have the heads and just have to have 10 more HP!!!!
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Wes
GenIII
6/21/2002
21:11:43
|  RE: HO CAM's
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Any word on the EHO cams?
IP Z-tube, JET Stage 1, Borla headers, Gibson Exhaust, PowerSlot Rotors, 17" Eagles w/ Falken tires, and more...
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R.L.Stuart
Dodge Dakota
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6/21/2002
21:39:09
| RE: HO CAM's
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Sandmand
Is your friend the same one who came up with the flashes to de-tune the power from our engines(26) to date and added the third cat to steal another 5hp from the 2001 and up 4.7's,Tell your Friend I picked up 7 rwhp=about 14+ at the crank and 22lbs of tq through the power band just fron a simple CAN swap.
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CW
GenIII
6/21/2002
21:47:32
|  RE: HO CAM's
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Your friend doesn't know sh1t because it give bottom end. It is 13 RWHP if I remember correct. For the price they are hard to beat. Porting the stockers will be ahead of the HO heads. Although HO ported heads sound good.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods.
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R.L.Stuart
Dodge Dakota
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6/21/2002
22:12:04
| RE: HO CAM's
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Message:
Thanks CW
By the way My Uncle's brother has a sister who has son-in-law who has a brother-in-law who has a friend who works for DC in Mexico on the ram line,Nothing to do with Performance but what the hell.
Engineers At DC will not talk about anything they are doing,Hell members of my family own a Dearlship and it takes an act of GOD to talk to one of the engineers at DC!!!!!!!!
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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6/21/2002
22:51:49
| They don't know squat!
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I've talked to a couple of DC engineers....... they are probably fantastic at math problems but the two I talked to had a complete lack of understanding about how an internal combustion engine operates. (and they were in powertrain!) Since I was talking about what these engines do under certain operating conditions, and all they understand is mathematical formulas - there was a failure to communicate!
I described the shortcomings of the stock returnless fuel system, the high fuel rail temps and the junk Siemans injectors. I tried to describe what happens when things get hot under the hood. They both said that there have been no problems reported with any of the fuel system components and they didn't have any data about power loss due to high engine or fuel rail temps. When I said I had proof from dyno pulls they said the factory tests everything and if there would have been any problems, they would have been corrected. So in other words..... we don't know what you're talking about.
To sum it up....... the engineers probably know as much about the end product and how it reacts in real world use as a salesman knows about rod bolt sheer strengths or the metallic alloy composition of the rods. When you add it all up, they don't know squat!
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CW
GenIII
6/21/2002
23:10:21
| RE: HO CAM's
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They work to much on paper and nothing on performance.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2002
01:07:01
| RE: HO CAM's
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Message:
No he is not the one that wrote code or did engine maping. He does not work on the 4.7L. He went to the service release engineer for the HO cam's and one of the engineers that did some early engine maping for the PCM for 2001. R.L.Stuart, if you look at my post you will see that your gain of 7rwhp is right inline with my friend prediction of "10HP at the wheels" CW is your truck completly stock? I think you were in agreement with the engineers on the intake not doing much for you????You will notice that he also said " That this was on a stock engine and did not take into account after market modifications." He claimed that the heads not only flow better but they also raise compression. While I will agree with you that most engineers are clueless this guy is also a gear head. Remember engineers are cautious with recomendations. I was passing along another opion from engineer's at DC! If you do not like the message do not shoot the messanger. If any dealership charges you more then $73.60+tax for each cam they are grossly over chargeing.The intake list for $161.00. Guys I am going to buy these parts for Christmas for my Dak. I thought that I would pass this info on to the group seeing how it came directly from DC!! You will notice that I pass all info on even if I do not agree with it or if it will not be popular.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2002
01:12:05
| We need more gear-heads!
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Sandman - I was definately not trying to shoot the messenger! Just relating my "encounter" with a couple of clueless engineers. I'm sure an engineer that's also a gear-head would be a great asset to DC. Too bad they don't have more of them!
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crm
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2002
01:46:27
| RE: HO CAM's
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CW, do you have a total gain of RWHP from the cams and intake? i have read that the intake is only worth it if installed with the cams, just trying to decide on cams only or both cams and intake. i got a great deal on parts and labor, but money doesnt grow on trees :) just wanna get my money's worth...
thanks...
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2002
09:29:16
|  RE: HO CAM's
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I had an engieneer call me a couple of day ago. He needed all the part number for the gaskets in the rear diff. and the axle seals. He also wanted assembly drawing and torq. specs. His truck was only two years old. I had to ask him what happened to his truck that was not covered under warranty? He tels me " I could not get my drums off to service my rear brakes so I had to remove axle's and put them in a vise and beat the drums off." I started laughing at him on the phone. He also tore up his backing plates and snapped some bolts by turning them the wrong way!!!
I helped on engieneer repair a truck that he bought used. The truck was a theft recover/rollover. All of the engineers that work under him were so impressed that he could replace some sheet metal and shoot some paint.
We were doing a class to teach some engineers how all of the parts they design work together. It was also intended to teach them fundementals of auto mechanic's.The company is realy trying to get the engineers to get some hands on knoldge. The lab after several days of lecture was to dismantel an engine that had just come off the ass. line. These engineers failed. One group tried to nock the piston out the bootm and a ring hung up and they gave up, another group could not get the bedding plate seperated and dammaged the engine buy tring to remove the pistons with crank still in place. They scratched the crank to hell. One group of engineers could not break the head bolts loose on their own. All of these groups failed in other ways too. They all had service manuals and all the tools that they needed. All of them tried to rewrite the service manual and take "short-cuts" even though none of them had ever worked on an engine before. So yes I do know what you are saying.
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CW
GenIII
6/22/2002
11:06:13
| RE: HO CAM's
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Message:
The only gains I have on paper are off of the KRC site and yes that was stock short of a throttle body. The cams have more lift on the intake with a little less duration. How could something like that take away torque. I will definitly agree on the intake not much to be had there. Might help down the road with a throttle body.
CRM stick with the cams if you are not into gambling on the intake. The cams work well with the stock intake.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods.
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kerleyfries
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2002
19:13:21
| RE: HO CAM's
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Message:
well kids i just ordered the ho intake to go on the dak.... we will see how it works. to give you an idea on what i have here goes nothing.. i have: an airaid intake, 69 mm ported tb, iat adjuster, ho cams, .789 on the tps, 2 1/2 true duals with an h-pipe, dynomas turbos and 410's accomodated with a dana locker. no this is not the 5 speed. 45rfe. not a bad tranny--loving it actually.. stuck some b&m trick shift in it and it shifts relatively good. i will post again by the end of next week. thats when the part comes in. any where from wed to friday. i realize that on a completely stock truck that the intake would probably not due to much. but the gentlemen "Marty" at krc said that the 4.7l's intakes are 100% terrible. so anything is better than nothing. also i am going to see if my stock intake can be a guinea pig for krc to toy with. hopefully they can make some sort of prototype for us to try out....im out like a fat kid playing dodge ball....
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crm
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2002
19:58:23
| RE: HO CAM's
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CW: i dont feel that it would be a gamble for the intake, just not sure if it's worth the extra $230 for parts and labor. for that same $230, i could get a high flow cat and some more time on a dyno. i dunno, might just stick with the cams for now, i can always go back and add the intake later.
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D
Dodge Dakota
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6/22/2002
21:19:43
| RE: HO CAM's
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Message:
if you're gonna do cams, you may as well
change the manifold while its off....a shop
shouldnt charge you extra labor for that, the
stock manifold has to be removed any way.
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CW
GenIII
6/22/2002
21:56:36
| RE: HO CAM's
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Message:
It doesn't have to be removed but is much easier to do at the same time. Extra 1/2 hour.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods.
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