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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
17:15:59
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 Subject: RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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If the intercooler cools it so it's equal to the heat of a smaller amount of boost, we'll say 1 for now. So you reduced it by one, then you just up it back up and you're back where you started, but with a lil more power, and you did it safely, right?
Can't you just reduce detonation with correct timing controls, better fuel delivery (entire system), knock sensors, higher octane, colder plugs, and that sort of stuff?
You get an intercooler, you solve your current pinging problem, then you up it a pound, now your pinging is back and you're are where you started from before, but with a lil more power!
The whole goal is to get the intake charge back down to ambient air temps.
What is the plus/minus on water/alc. injection vs intercoolers, can you use them both?
I've search for that on google and havn't found much, so maybe you all know...
Thanks..
That Kenne Bell is looking more and more appealing every minute, lol.
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
17:25:23
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Hehe, I have only a decent understanding of it from basic physics, not too much on the mechanical aspects, like FMUs and such.
Boyle's Law anyone?
I think I need to get Corkey Bell's book tonight...
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
17:32:07
|  RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Yeah, but if you can get the timing maxed out (just short of pinging) and the fuel maxed out and at 12psi of boost, and then the intercooler cools the intake charge down to the same heat that would be generated by 10 psi, that means you can add 2 more psi of boost before you are pinging again, right? So then your original 12 psi is able to be increased to 14 psi because of the intercooler. And for every 14 psi you stuff thru the motor, you DOUBLE the original horsepower output (theoretically). Take 235 and multiply it by 2........ 470 hp sounds pretty much like 426 Hemi territory, eh?
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
17:32:52
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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PS- Corky's book is THE TURBO BIBLE. Read it, Know it.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
18:05:03
| Get the book - buy a kit
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I still think the best thing for anyone that's contemplating adding any sort of forced air induction is for them to get ahold of the book called "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. That book is terrific for laying out exactly how the whole (boost vs intercooler vs compression vs octane vs timing) thing works. All of those variables have to be taken into account when you are talking about a forced air system.
That's also why you would buy a kit instead of piecing it all together for yourself.
When you buy a kit - all of those things are already worked out and the entire system functions correctly for the amount of boost the system is rated for. Where you will get into trouble is when you decide to change any of those parameters. If one thing changes - a bunch of things must be changed to compensate for it. The higher the boost numbers, the more dangerous making changes are. That's why SpeedTweaks, Kenne Bell, Powerdyne, Paxton, Vortech (or myself) have been talking about boost levels in the 6-8 lbs range. That's a nice safe range of operation that still provides a good bang for the buck performance wise. After you've owned and operated a system for a while, you would be more comfortable about making a change to it.
Here again.... that's why you would buy a COMPLETE SYSTEM instead of a bunch of parts. That way all of the what-ifs are already taken into consideration.
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
18:09:25
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Well yeah, I mean, it does add extra, but I would think it would be one of the kinda last things you would do opposed to the other things you can do.. You don't get forged pistons before you even get an intake and exhaust kinda deal is what I'm thinking. Water Injection looks real promising, but I am really wondering how well it works.
PS- Corky's book is THE TURBO BIBLE. Read it, Know it.
That's the only thing I've heard about that book.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
18:31:05
| Hooked
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I'm sorry, I forgot to answer about the water/alcohol injection part. I ran the water/alcohol injection system on my truck for a while with so-so results. I thought it worked OK at lower boost settings on my truck but knew it didn't work at the higher boost settings. I believe the problem with it was that the stock ignition isn't capable of firing both the fuel and the alcohol when under boost. That was too much for it and It would actually try and ping if I had it turned on. I would still run the injection when I was towing my trailer at a lower boost setting. Then I accidently ran out of alcohol..... and didn't notice any difference. I removed the system because it wasn't making any real difference other than being something else attached to the system that needed monitoring.
Also - when you read Corky's book, he isn't fond of water/alcohol injection at all. I guarantee that once you buy and read that book that you'll be HOOKED on wanting nothing but a turbo system. Look what happened to me! hahaha
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
19:01:33
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Oh, that's interesting. So for the time it would take to be replacing the alcohol/water mixture all the time and the extra parts for more things to go wrong, it just isn't worth it. Learn something new everyday!
So what happened to that turbo marketing idea of your for your own turbo system. What news can you give us about that?
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
19:22:51
| Competition
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I have basically about scrapped the idea of marketing my own kit.
It appeared that nobody was going to want to buy a kit until after they saw what SpeedTweaks did with theirs. Unless I could get at least 5 people to purchase a kit at the start - it wasn't economically viable to have the intial parts run. Since I'm not willing to drop all of the cash necessary to start production - it probably won't happen. I understand and respect the fact that people wouldn't want to buy a kit and find out later that they could have gotten something better or a better deal just by waiting. I don't honestly believe that would have been the case - but I also know that people like to feel secure about large purchases. I know that as long as SpeedTweaks says they will be coming out with a kit in the future (whenever that really is), that nobody will put their money down on one of my kits. So waiting is the name of the game......
Competition is a good thing - but it's the pitts waiting for the other team to show up for the game!
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
19:45:35
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Yeah, and they still have the 5.2 and 3.9 to go through too. I don't know why they are doing the 4.7L last when there are probably as many buyers for that as there are for the 5.9...
Man, those startup costs are a PITA eh? Maybe you can still make a FMU, then you would be the only one with that! No competition can be a good thing too! lol.
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CW
GenIII
5/22/2002
22:11:19
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Duner you said you were running a TO4B turbo, correct? What are the specs I am interested in the AR ratio as well. Thanxs.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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5/22/2002
23:18:37
| Standard T04B
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CW - It's a standard TO4B Turbo with an S trim compressor and a .96 A/R turbine.
http://members.cox.net/duner/Turbo/RTnotTurboPage.html
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
00:29:49
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Here's a question I havn't seen much information on..
What about climate, altitude changes, off roading/auto-x (I mean a lot of jumpy bumps and thrashing around) -- what lasts better. Cold weather in particular. I've read a lot on how turbos have pretty bad cold weather emissions.
Which do you think is more for a ruff n tuff climate and rapid weather changes and hard use?
A turbo or supercharger is not better than the other, one just suits some people better than the other, right?
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
01:23:00
| Good Questions!
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Hmmm, that's a bunch of questions all at once! hehehe
I wouldn't really know much about climate changes.... I've only used it in the desert. I don't really see where there would ever be any problems though.
I would think that a turbo or supercharger would improve performance dramatically when operating at higher altitudes. Altitude changes are compensated automatically by the MAP sensor and the PCM.
Off roading/auto-x? I don't think either of those two activities would make much difference to either a turbo or supercharger. To be honest - I think the supercharger would probably be easier to control the power with in both instances, mainly because of it's linear power production. The turbo comes on in a mad rush. You hit the throttle and it's at full boost. While that's SO MUCH FUN, it might be tough to 4-wheel with or auto-x with. I'll let you know about the auto-x part in about 3 weeks!
What lasts better? I think both types of systems add complexity to your truck and could need service at some point in the future. I know I've heard horror stories about blower failures as well as problems with turbos. Both will require changes to your service schedule, but changing your oil on a regular basis will be the key.
I wouldn't be qualified to answer about cold weather operation for either system. I've never heard of turbos having bad cold weather emissions before - and also don't know why they even might. Hopefully somebody that has run a turboed vehicle in the cold will have some more insight. Just thinking about how my system is put together, you would possibly need to change the air filter config slightly to make sure that it didn't get clogged in heavy snow conditions. (I hadn't thought about that before). Hitting a big snow drift at 40 mph could force enough snow into the grill opening to clog the filter.... but then again, it would probably also pack the radiator and you'd overheat anyway. Simply blocking off the opening on the side of the radiator would take care of it.
I think either system should work equally well in whatever weather conditions and neither of them will care about hard use. Either system will far outlive the rest of the drivetrain if hard use is the norm. If you beat on it all the time..... something will break. That's just the rules of the game. hehehe The more the boost, the quicker it goes, the better the chance of breaking something. (I hate that part of the game!) hehehe
True. I can't honestly say that either is better than the other. Both have their strong points as well as their limitations. You just have to decide which is what you want and JUMP with both feet! hahaha
As you can see - I don't tailor my answers to fit the turbo sales effort...... no wonder I haven't sold any! hahahaha
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CW
GenIII
5/23/2002
09:37:15
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Now that you guys mention bad road conditions, that is one reason that I am concidereing a paxton. The linear boost. I can just imagine a icy road and that turbo decides to spool a little. I have been on roads that are hard to drive with a stock truck never mind one that makes 400hp "in a mad rush". I guess one way to help solve this would be a remote boost controller. That way I could dial the boost back and not worry in the sippary stuff.
2001 4.7HO RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods.
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
09:59:18
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Wow, thank you for that very long post! Veddy helpful.
Yeah, isn't that game fun. In order to have more fun, more things WILL break.
Heh, not exacly 4 wheelin', but I go out and jump around in the snow and take my friend's hooky-bobin' from behind the truck on backroads.
I've seen that cold start emissions thing mostly all over the internet, maybe they're just all playing copy-cat, I've seen it done before with other things.
Ok, so the slaming around int he snow drifts and tight corners of the auto-x will not break part of a uppipe loose or something of that sort -- that's mostly all I wanted to know.
I change my oil every 2800-3000 with M1 oil and filter, but I've kind of read where it could be a good idea to do it every 2000-2500 with the turbo. Man is oil expensive, hehe. What's required for maintenance on a supercharger..I'm gunna have to Google that topic and see what I come up with.
Again, thanks for the help.
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
12:00:12
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Well, I guess superchargers have to have their own regular oil change intervals too, but I just cant find anything on how often to do it. Just a bunch of companies all tryin' to say 100,000 miles maintenance free -- I'd like to see that.
Duner, I was very interested in your turbo, but I just had no idea why yours was 500 dollars more than Speedtweak's and they even had a turbo. Is the setup you were going to have what you have on your truck, or a more tuned stupid proofed one?
If people just had an example, I think it would sell just fine, even if Speedtweak's isn't out yet. Yours had an FMU, which Speedtweak's didn't. They had the intercooler, but I can always add that later, right?
I'd try to apprach it again, you may still have a pretty good chance to sell some turbos.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
12:32:18
| Turbo Kit
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I was $500 higher than SpeedTweaks estimate of the final price. But their price was just an estimate, which means it was subject to change at any time. Nobody would want to get boxed in with a fixed price until after they produced the product and knew how much it was gonna cost. (that only made good business sense on their part)
The system I was proposing was going to be an updated system that's nearly identical to mine. The system would be all dialed in with a boost setting of 5-7 lbs. Yes, the intercooler system could be added later but at an additional cost.
I'll give the idea of producing the kits some more thought.....
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
13:02:35
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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You really got to get some sort of F.A.Q. on a website that covers everything (well mostly, I respect your own trade secrets and such, why else would you want to be marketing it!).
You have a proven turbo, no one else does, hell at this rate it wont be 'till next year when Speedtweak's even looks at the 4.7L. :(
You're in a really good position to sell turbos right now, but then again, I'm no Greenspan.
To your post a long time ago, I am interested in your turbo, but the only information I know about it, is [ YOU HAVE A WORKING ONE ], lol.
Knowledge is power!!
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Art
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
15:42:52
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Duner you might think about getting a couple of people on board to help with financing and sourcing of parts and even geting a couple of kits to people at cost so they can promote your turbo setup,you got the edge,you have one allready dont lose it.I would by one right now if I could afford it at the moment too many other things to pay for unfortunately
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
17:45:05
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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That's sorta what I was thinking Art; I'm not looking for any special deals or anything, if they aren't produced, then I get no turbo at all, lol.
I would think getting a couple kits out to people who are capable of installing it themselves so they can give good reviews about the install and performance could work, but that's all up to Duner. It's his business venture..
Selling his turbos at cost would be a very hard to do. He would be basically giving away more money before he even starts making it -- that can't work or I just don't know how.
I like the ideas in Duner's setup where he uses a FMU and then if we wanted, we can add a intercooler when we feel like we need to. I am leaning towards this turbo version more because of that, it leaves room for a little more upgrading. He's kinda taking a risk if he isn't for sure 5 (was it five??) people would be interested and buy one right off the bat.
Hey Duner, what about if you went thru production for some FOR-SURE buys? I mean, they have paid you, you have money to pay for it. Have them give reviews and such in return for maybe some kind of incentive deal to get in on it now and give a detailed review. You might get your 5 (hell if i know how many) start up costs people, not make as much as you wanted originally and hopefully not loose any money though, cuz that would suck. This is all guessing that people need an example of their peers using it - guinea pigs you could say -- before they laid down that kinda dough.
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Rob
GenIII
5/23/2002
18:00:24
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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I am intrigued about this turbo set up and maybe in a year I would get one. I would really like to see an intercooler but to add it the price would be pretty steep. hell I dont even know if I could get away with it in California that is why I am leaning back to a supercharger but I dont care for the ones marketed now that much. I think Xplict and Art have great ideas. I think in this time of day there only to sayings to live by in the sport truck world!
"you have to pay to play"
"You have to spend money to make money"
 180 thermostat,Z-Tube,Magnaflow exhaust,jet mod,,Auto lite 3923's,SS bumper cover,Stull full billet grill and shell,SS rollpan,Apc clear corners&euro tails,DJM 2inch control arms & 3 inch block
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
18:16:32
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Rob, I don't know if you just came in on the last bit, but earlier in this topic were some parts on intercoolers.
Basicly they do help, but they are very expensive for what you get. With the right timing and other much cheaper modifications, you can do exactly what an intercooler pretty much does, which is reduce detonation. it doesn't MAKE horse power, it just cools the air that's going in so it doesn't pre-ignite, which just destorys enignes on the spot. Sure you can then boost it back up to where it was before, but now you're back to where you started, but with a lil extra power. I think of it more as a saftey measure more than anything. With the boost levels Duner is giving us to initally start off at. I don't know if I want to pay 1500 dollars or so for one extra pound of boost.
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Rob
GenIII
5/23/2002
18:40:29
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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I agree Xplikt to the fact that it is not worth the extra 1500. procharger makes intercooled superchargers for a very competive price and smoke paxton and vortech but the A**holes dont make one for our trucks.That is why I am intrigued with Duners turbo because like you said it leaves room for improvent.
Duner do you know if your set up would be legal in California?????
180 thermostat,Z-Tube,Magnaflow exhaust,jet mod,,Auto lite 3923's,SS bumper cover,Stull full billet grill and shell,SS rollpan,Apc clear corners&euro tails,DJM 2inch control arms & 3 inch block
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
18:43:50
| What it would take
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You guys have some very good ideas!
But here's the problem: The "profits" from the first 5 kits are what is necessary to pay for the production fixtures, jigs and CNC programming required to produce the kits. In other words - the reason it was 5 kits instead of 4 or 8 was because that was precisely the number needed to pay for the initial start-up and still break even. There would be no money to be made until after the first 5 were out the door. These kits aren't going to be manufactured in somebody's garage. All parts are being CNC machined and produced by machine shops that specialize in aerospace manufacturing. We're talking about aerospace quality parts. No sloppy welds (that look like mine?) or rough edges, but pro stuff all the way. Unfortunately, these types of places aren't interested in little "projects". They are in business to make money and have millions of dollars invested in the equipment it takes to produce the parts.
I'm not willing (or able) to suffer all of the initial costs on the bet that I can recoup those costs in the future. What it would take would be for 5 people to put 50% down on a kit. I fully realize that the chances of that happening are slim indeed.... but that's what it would take.
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
19:09:09
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Well, if one person put down %100 on the kit, then you need only 3 other people, right??
Then, if I did this, it would leave it to where just two other people would only have to put down %75? Correct me if I am wrong here, but what about that deal?
Or, two people at %100 and %50
or three people at %50..
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Rob
GenIII
5/23/2002
19:33:01
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Duner- %50 down? Do you mean pay for half now then half later or are you willing to take a loss on the first five in order to get the kit in the view of the public? I am really getting ancy now but I still dont know if this california law will allow your kit???????
180 thermostat,Z-Tube,Magnaflow exhaust,jet mod,,Auto lite 3923's,SS bumper cover,Stull full billet grill and shell,SS rollpan,Apc clear corners&euro tails,DJM 2inch control arms & 3 inch block
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
19:33:48
| Still gotta sell 5 to start.
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I would still need a total of 5 people in the first group to make it work. The 50% down from all 5 will get the fixtures and jigs produced, but the machine shops don't want to manufacture just 3 or 4 of anything. For some of the parts I'm able to get them to only produce 5 for the initial batch. The other parts they are charging the same price for 1 as they do for10 parts. You have to pay for the machine set-up whether you want 1 part or 1000. I have to get at least 10 of those parts before the price per part even begins to be reasonable. That's the machine work. The actual hard-parts pricing also takes a hit if I order less than 5. The whole start-up is based upon building 5 complete kits and selling all 5 of them to recoup all of the cost.
Bottom line is that I have to have 5 sets sold to break even.
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
19:40:44
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Rob - I would need 50% down and 50% on delivery.
I don't think my kit would pass any California inspections..... and it would cost a minimum of $10,000 for me to apply for a CARB certification - so that's pretty much out of the picture!
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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5/23/2002
19:53:35
| RE: Kenne Bell on a 4.7 5-spd?
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Well damn, that makes it a lot harder then! Selling manuf. superchargers isn't even that easy, but the %50 down should attract a lot of people. Not everyone has 4000 on the spot, at least not for very long. So 2000 shouldn't be too hard for people to do.
The fact that the prices will go down after a set number of people buy it first is kind of detering. I mean, who wants to go first then?! What if.. for the first set you need, you make them (us) a deal where if your turbos really do take off and you sell (the amount you reach where you will break even, including this next part which will cost you money) down the line and now they're cheaper. You offer a deal to those original people, where they get a rebate of some kind that makes the the new cost. There's always that initial production cost where you got to get to a certain point to cover all you put into it, then after that, it's just profit. All the diving-into costs are gone, you've covered those.
This would be a great incentive because those people who bought the turbo will sort of work for you in a sense that they will reccomend these to people, take care of them, show them off, in order to help you reach that goal that'll get them their "rebate".
???
Just throwin' ideas around here, nothing serious. This is basicly the number one mod for our vehicles right now. Speedtweak's wont be out for a long time, we do have superchargers for the same price, but don't offer the performance that a turbo does. Hughes engines is one of the slowest companies I have ever seen to get something done, they are not very probable in my mind -- it's not even a turbo or super from them anyhow.
When you think about it, what are all 4.7L owners doing, just waitin' around...
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