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Spuckint
Dodge Dakota
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2/04/2007
14:22:17
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 Subject: 05' 4.7L mods
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which of these would yield the biggest gains?
Flowmaster cat back, K&N FIPK, or Jet stage 1?
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Get this
Dodge Dakota
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2/04/2007
23:30:33
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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a Ford.
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Kowalski
GenIII
2/05/2007
07:38:41
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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I'd say the K&N, but you should be aware the gains are at the higher rpms. The jet hasn't seen good reviews here, but the 4.7 does respond well to more ignition advance. Some of us have done that with custom PCM flashes, others favor the Superchips. Any reason you've limited the choices to the three you mentioned ?
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Fasstdak
Dodge Dakota
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2/06/2007
20:46:09
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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Actually, the HP Cam swap makes the best gain and costs about the same as a quality cold air kit.
Stay away from the Jet "chips" - the PCM's can easily learn them and reset to factory defaults. Superchips/Hypertech would be your best bet if they're available yet (last I talked to them they were coming).
The exhaust is the best bet with the cold air coming in at a close 2nd. There is the other option of a modified throttle body since the '05 models aren't fly-by-wire (ETC) yet (that's on the '07 models now). Fastman is a good option for that.
We've already done a mild build-up at the dealership for an '05 4.7L Dakota - HO Cams, Mopar Intake, Mopar Exhaust, and 4.10:1 gear swap. Made a HUGE difference in the performance. Still waiting for the software to program the PCM's though.
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Fasstdak
Dodge Dakota
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2/06/2007
21:52:45
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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Oops...that should read "HO Cams".
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4.7onN20
Dodge Dakota
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2/06/2007
22:16:23
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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The KRC Cams are pretty sweet. Go for the 206 if you still want a
lot of towing power or the 212s for some top end. They used to
have dyno graphs on their web page but I cant seem to find
them. Those two cams may cost twice as much but they also do
twice as much and more. If your going to take the time to do it I
would do it right the first time.
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Fasstdak
Dodge Dakota
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2/06/2007
22:24:12
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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Also, make sure you have the latest PCM software as there are issues with the aftermarket cams with the older revisions. We've installed the 206's in a customers Ram 4.7L - had misfire and idle issues until we updated the software.
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4.7onN20
Dodge Dakota
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2/06/2007
23:49:13
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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Hmm I haven't heared of that. A few people have swaped over with no problems but I cant remember what years they were.
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Kowalski
GenIII
2/07/2007
08:13:08
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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Fasstdak - a bit more information on your claims if you would, please - what do you mean by "mopar intake" ? The 4.10 gears will offer a huge difference in performance just by themselves; did you dyno each mod to back up your claims ? Also, what exactly do you mean by "mopar exhaust" ? Did you replace the restrictive y-pipe ? That seems to be the major bottleneck in the 4.7's exhaust system. I agree that upgrading the cams is a good mod, was just waiting to hear why spuckint hadn't considered that before suggesting it.
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Fasstdak
Dodge Dakota
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2/07/2007
09:05:35
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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The Mopar Cold-Air Intake - there is no aftermarket intake manifold available (at this time). The Y-Pipe was custom built by a local muffler shop for the customer before the other items were installed (at the dealership).
We didn't dyno them but rather watched the fuel economy (which went up 1.5mpg) and on a test area we use for mph checks in between markers (we use this area for the SRT's and Vipers we work on as well).
If the customer wants dyno runs made, we sublet it to the other dealership that has one at their facility.
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Kowalski
GenIII
2/07/2007
09:58:34
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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What "mopar cold air intake" ? The stock one is set up for cold air already; last I knew there wasn't a mopar performance piece available to replace this for the 4.7; yet you list it as a mod.
Enlighten us, please, if you can...
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Kowalski
GenIII
2/07/2007
10:05:08
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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Also, I'm confused as to why you would tell Spuckint that his cat back choice would be good, when that obviously wouldn't include replacement of the y-pipe which you credit ? I don't belive anyone's ever dynoed a dcent gain from a catback on our 4.7 without also replacing that y-pipe.
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Fasstdak
Dodge Dakota
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2/07/2007
10:39:42
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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The Mopar Performance Cold Air Intake Kit (modified 5.7L Kit: P4510920). The factory intake isn't a true cold-air and has restrictions in the resonator and airbox. The 4.7L's do show a 12RWHP gain by replacing the restrictive exhaust system with a 3" single rear exit system (we tested a Gibson setup on both a 4.7L and 5.7L - the 5.7L gained 17RWHP). If you want to get into every little detail, yes...the y-pipe is a good choice to replace, but since they're not offered with most common exhaust systems (hence "Cat-Back"), it's normally not replaced by the average person.
From personal/professional experience, you get a better gain from replacing the throttle body and air intake than with an exhaust system.
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Kowalski
GenIII
2/07/2007
10:53:36
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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Yes, I'm big on the details - small details sometimes make a big difference. So, was the 12 RWHP gain for the 4.7 gibson cat back with or without changes to the y-pipe? Others have reported no gain with just a cat back change.
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Fasstdak
Dodge Dakota
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2/07/2007
11:12:20
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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No y-pipe on the test truck we had played around with. Just a rock solid 12RWHP gain.
One thing that most dont understand is that if you install a new exhaust, you need to reset the PCM and let it adapt to the new fre flowing system. Fuel changes are made and it takes about 40-50 miles for a good learn cycle. If you don't do this, you won't see any decent gains (or if any at all). You can do it without resetting the PCM but the learn cycle will take longer.
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TexasTodd
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2007
05:39:43
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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12 RWHP from a Gibson Cat back on a 4.7? The ONLY mod? Thats about 18 at the crank.
Show me the money!
Post the dynos, please!
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Fasstdak
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2007
07:14:51
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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Actually, it's only 15HP at the crank which is a normal gain. BTW: The Hemi trucks gain 17RWHP with just an exhaust - 3" Single/rear exit.
I'll have to ask the dyno shop if they still have the old dyno files. We only kept the dyno printouts - that was well over a year ago.
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Kowalski
GenIII
2/09/2007
09:19:11
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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Fasstdak - you seem fairly knowledgable so I think I should let you know where Todd and I are coming from here. We have both been on the site for many years; myself since about when the 4.7 was first used in the Dak, and Todd almost as long, and he has gone through the trouble of doing a dyno on his combination of mods. I've paid a lot of attention to all mod dynos, wanting to concentrate on mods that made real gains, especially in the rpm range I wanted. Gains have been substantiated for cam upgrades, custom flash and some "chip" upgrades (some show no gain), exhaust mods that included changing more than the catback, etc.
Yours is the first claim to have reported a gain from a catback exhaust on a Dak, without including other mods; while others have reported no gain, or even a small loss in torque. This is why we are very skeptical, perhaps the dyno you mentioned included some other mods ? We are well aware that mod does work with most of the other motors, but that is not what we've seen for the 4.7.
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Fasstdak
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2007
10:06:40
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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I have been professionally working on these engines/vehicles for a long time now. I have done dyno testing on 3.9L - 8.3L engines (and everything in between). The 4.7L Ram that was being used for the cat-back system testing had the 3 muffler system on it. Granted, the Dakota's only have 2 but the gains will still be close to the same (yes, a little less in some cases). However, you have to take into consideration the days that testing is done, engine temp, and PCM learing. We ran these tests on the same day, 25 mile trips in between exhaust system testing (yes, we torn them apart in the dyno room), and engine temps were datalogged with the DRB to make sure that everything is the same.
Identical vehicles won't put down the same amount of HP/TQ due to PCM software revision, engine tolerances, and actual engine state of tune.
Yes, we've seen losses as well on vehicles - the Hemi was a good example: 3" side exit lost about 5HP/5TQ but we gained on the 3" Rear exit (exhaust tuning is a huge key on the 3.7/4.7/5.7/6.1L engines).
We had similar issues on the Vipers as well - especially the '05+ models. The exhaust system is tuned perfectly on them right out of the box and we had customers complaining when they swapped out with something else - the either didn't gain anything or lost power. They are special case vehicles though.
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Fasstdak
Dodge Dakota
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2/09/2007
10:11:34
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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I have been professionally working on these engines/vehicles for a long time now. I have done dyno testing on 3.9L - 8.3L engines (and everything in between). The 4.7L Ram that was being used for the cat-back system testing had the 3 muffler system on it. Granted, the Dakota's only have 2 but the gains will still be close to the same (yes, a little less in some cases). However, you have to take into consideration the days that testing is done, engine temp, and PCM learing. We ran these tests on the same day, 25 mile trips in between exhaust system testing (yes, we torn them apart in the dyno room), and engine temps were datalogged with the DRB to make sure that everything is the same.
Identical vehicles won't put down the same amount of HP/TQ due to PCM software revision, engine tolerances, and actual engine state of tune.
Yes, we've seen losses as well on vehicles - the Hemi was a good example: 3" side exit lost about 5HP/5TQ but we gained on the 3" Rear exit (exhaust tuning is a huge key on the 3.7/4.7/5.7/6.1L engines).
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Kowalski
GenIII
2/09/2007
11:50:55
| RE: 05' 4.7L mods
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I'm aware that testing is meaningless unless done on the same dyno under the same conditions. Readings can differ from dyno to dyno too. Guys who have track tested have found the same thing, no increase in performance with just a cat back system on 4.7 Daks. Don't know what you mean by 2 or 3 mufflers, do you mean cats ? Daks can come with different 3's of cats depending on different years and different emissions packages (fed or cali), but my Dakota only came with one muffler; not aware of any coming with more than one. How about some of you other guys - anyone's Dak come with more than one muffler stock ? Perhaps the gain you claim is not for Daks, only for Rams with multiple mufflers ?
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