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Luke
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
16:07:36
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 Subject: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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Yesterday I was driving my 4.7 2000 Dakota (auto trans) to work and was driving about 65 in o/d when it suddenly shifted down pretty hard. I let off the gas and it went back into o/d, then it shifted down again (just cruising on a flat freeway, no load). The MIL light came on - I believe thats the name of the light, it's a yellow sort of sideways oval with a few lumps on it on the dash. When I pulled off the road I shifted into park and the shifting was very hard and jerked the truck every time it shifted into Reverse or Drive. I called up AAA and they towed it to a local shop which said I had error codes P0715, PO733, PO731. Which is 1st gear ratio mess up, 3rd gear ratio mess up, and "input/Turbine Speed Sensor Circuit Malfunction". They told me that in 3rd gear the "gears weren't meshing - the rpm goes up but the truck doesn't move." They said they checked the fluid and it wasn't burnt so the manual they have says to begin by replacing the TCM: Transmission Control Module. They said they aren't sure this will fix it and they'll just have to replace parts...
I believe the TCM is an expensive part however and I'd like to avoid throwing money away.
The truck has 58,000 miles on it. I had a Tranny Flush about 6,000 miles ago.(the previous owner had not done a flush on it before - so 50k on the truck at the first flush) I have done some research on the fluid that should go in the tranny and I'm not sure if the shop put the ATF+4 in there. They did tell me that my truck would run 25 bucks more than usual flushes because it needed a special additive - so I figure they used the right stuff. Would the fluid cause this many problems?
Basically, my question is what should I tell the shop to do... and is there a cheaper place to buy the TCM if I have them do that?
Also, with the P0715 code, "input/Turbine Speed Sensor Circuit Malfunction", should I have them replace that speed sensor before they do the TCM? from my reading online it appears that the TCM gets its info from the Speed sensor so if that's malfunctioning it could screw up the TCM...
Any help would be great! Thanks!
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Rob C
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
16:28:35
|  RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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I think I would definitely try the sensor before the TCM. The problem with most shops is the mechanics get paid based on the amount of money an individual job brings in. Therefore, the more they charge you, the bigger their cut is. That tends to influence their troubleshooting strategy. I don't know why they'd go for the big enchilada right off the bat except to charge you more money. Who's to say they aren't going to replace the sensor and charge you for a TCM? Besides, that "Our hands are tied, we have to replace the part the book calls out." excuse sounds very weak to me.
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
17:49:06
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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sometimes one code can cause several codes to show-up because these sensors are,nt getting the right info to work right
i would go for the speed sensor first
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parts manager
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
17:50:09
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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they told you they're going to replace the TCM? what a crock of BULLSH$$ if anything the first thing they do is to flash update the controller and reset the codes and CVI then take it for a test drive. i take it you havent been to the dealer in a while so the software in the tcm is original there are a ton of updates on these trannys if they want to replace the speed sensor let them but prepare yourself for tranny work it sounds like internal slippage is the enemy here. as for ATF+4 it has solved many chatter and slippage problems i dont know what additive the first place put in there but id make sure they used +4 it has a very cherry red look when new when its burns it turns an orange color but doesnt smell as much as the older fluids. do you have any extended warranties or service contracts? PS you dont have any internal fault codes for the TCM so somebody needs glasses or a new diagnostic book
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Josh
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
18:13:21
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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When you had the tranny flush done, you better hope they didn't use Dextron/Mercon fluid.
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Rob C
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
18:27:12
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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They probably used the universal ATF that you can buy in the bulk container then added the friction modifier Lubegard or Smartblend for trannies that require HFM fluid. I tried some of that with ATF+3, it caused the tranny to slip/grab sometimes which resulted in bucking and surging once in a while. I switched to ATF+4 and everythings better now.
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luke
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
18:27:40
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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Parts Manager: you mentioned having the dealer update the TCM - is that something only the dealer can do? Currently it is just at a local shop, not a dealer. Would you recommend that it go to the dealer because these guys are just going to start replacing things because they can't diagnose it?
I did authorize them about 1hr ago to replace the Input/Turbine Speed Sensor as it seemed after doing some research that that had a high probability of being the problem. We'll see how that goes...
I'll try calling the old shop that did the flush and see what they use on dakotas for fluid.
Another question I have is about the tranny fluid not being burned. If the tranny is slipping - doesn't that burn the fluid?
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Luke
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
18:31:33
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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Rob:
Before doing any more expensive part replacements should I have them also do a trans flush with ATF+4 just to be sure it's not that?
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parts manager
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
19:19:32
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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def replace with ATF+4 even if you haf to buy it yourself and give it to them but atleast 3 gals i know its expensive but its less than a trans.updates can be done by shops that have the equipment and subscription for the software (most dont sorry to say) you seem to have a harsh/no engagement prob so the tranny isnt really slipping too much yet to burn the fluid. the banging into gear is def not good for these units I've seen the clutch retainers in the case sheer off from this many times its bascially an A604 FWD trans internally Chrysler was having so many problems they put the A500 trans in the liberty for while to free up cores so the dealers would have enough to keep replacing these in all the other vechicles. i would recommend you take this to a dealer if the sensor and fluid change doesnt help and atleast have a flash update done. at the dealer you have recourse if this isnt fixed or still has a prob ,You can always get chrysler involved in the repair if they give you any BS. no matter what dealers say they hate when corporate gets involved in their service tactics
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Luke
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2006
20:36:08
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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Thanks for the info,
The shop called me and said the trans shop they were talking to can run some more electrical tests to determine the problem because they (the shop I currently have the truck at) think it's the tranny itself. They said the trans shop told them that if the speedometer is working properly then it wouldn't be the Input/Turbine Speed Sensor.
That seems to make sense...but the codes read a malfunction with that sensor and the speedo still works - so I'd still think it's worth a try replacing it. They said the part has to be purchased from the dealer and that it's out on order right now. AutoZone says they have one in stock, but they shop said not to buy it there... any thoughts?
I forgot to mention something which probably is important - I have a 4x4 model.
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QQQ
Dodge Dakota
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8/26/2006
00:50:31
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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Do the sensor first. They're cheap, and are known to go out. As soon as the codes were thrown, the tranny went into "Limp home mode" you lose 1st gear, overdrive, and the fluid pressure shoots up making all shifts harsh. This is normal. I had an output sensor go out on mine (2000 4.7) Same part number as input sensor. Threw a PO700 code, which stores another code that can only be read with a code reader. That code said output speed sensor bad, changed sensor, fixed. Since your's is the input, different codes. Here's a picture and write up about the sensors.
http://www.wjjeeps.com/speed_sensors.htm
Notice the input controls torque convertor slippage. Also you have another "output speed sensor" on top of the differential. That's for the speedometer! (which is why it works!) Completely different sensor, has nothing to do with transmission. Sorry if I'm ramblin' It's late.
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parts manager
Dodge Dakota
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8/26/2006
00:53:32
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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you have an input and output speed sensor. the speedo reads off the output speed sensor we've replaced many of these. the dealer should have 2-3 of these in stock at all times. input and output are both the same part number
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Luke
Dodge Dakota
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8/26/2006
01:49:29
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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wow, you guys are great!
I used to work on cars during high school (3yrs ago) and decided after buying this truck that I wouldn't work on them anymore because I usually ended up messing up on the install, breaking things etc...
But after experiencing the ridiculous amount of time and money wasted at the shops I think it's worth doing a few things myself on this truck. Thanks for all the advice - I'll do the input sensor tommorow instead of having them tow the truck to the tranny shop. I'll be sure and post my results to help the next person out who's got the same symptoms.
-Luke
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Rob C
Dodge Dakota
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8/26/2006
02:08:49
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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Valvoline now makes ATF+4 and it's available at AutoZone and it's cheaper than the Mopar stuff, about $3.75/quart versus $5.63/quart for the Mopar stuff. I doubt the Universal ATF caused your problem but, DMC recommended ATF+4 for all transmissions that called for ATF+,ATF+2 & ATF+3. I was just saying that I many shops claim that the universal ATF is just is good as ATF+4 especially when they add the Lubegard or Smartblend but, it's not, shift quality suffers.
On the TCM flash, I'm pretty sure it can only be done at the dealer. DMC tightly controls that process too, I tried to get my PCM/TCM flashed with the newer code in the hopes of getting my 45RFE to operate like a 545RFE but, the dealer has to establish a connection to corporate and download the code from them to your TCM. When they connected to corporate and entered my VIN, they kept getting an error, VIN not authorized code. So, after about an hour of trying they gave my vehicle back and didn't charge me the $85 they were going to.
I heard that the sensors do fail commonly so hopefully that'll fix your truck. Good luck!
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Luke
Dodge Dakota
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8/26/2006
19:38:00
| PROBLEM FIXED!!!
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Well guys, I can't thank you enough - I went to the dealer this morning, picked up an Input Speed Sensor ($54.00) and went to the shop to install it. They told me again that they thought it was the tranny and I told them I was going to try this sensor. I installed it myself and ran it around town for 10min or so (I wanted to be sure it wasn't related to the tranny not being warmed up so I wanted to make sure it got to normal temp).
It ran perfectly!! I Praise the good Lord for you guys!
The shop just charged 65 bucks for the diagnostic (I know I could have done it at autozone for free = but I didn't know how bad it would be to drive it so it was worth it).
So about 119 bucks later I'm free - thanks again. I hope this post helps someone else out in the future.
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parts manager
Dodge Dakota
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8/27/2006
00:07:51
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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happy to hear you're back on the road. did you erase the old codes? hope you will change the fluid to be sure you get ATF+4 in there. was there any metal stuck to the sensor when you took it out? and someday if you feel like emptying your wallet totally you could get your TCM updated at the dealer
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GraphiteDak
GenIII
8/27/2006
01:41:33
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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Wow that is awesome.
I'll have to remember that when mine acts up.
Now one thing that was wrong that they told you was the sensors doing the speedo.
I am not sure if it is true for ALL of these gen Dak's, but mine for example takes the speed signal form the ABS sensor on the rear diff.
Therefore the input/output sensors have absolutely NOTHING to do with your speedo. That's why it worked fine :)
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Luke
Dodge Dakota
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8/27/2006
04:10:22
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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Yea, I'd like to do the Amsoil tranny fluid after flushing the system and replacing the filter. How do I purchase the Amsoil fluid? is it only available online...what type do I get...how many quarts...etc...and any more comments on why it's superior and if it's worth the $$.
Also the TCM Flash - worth the money? I have the cash, just don't know how important the updates are...
Thanks!
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parts manager
Dodge Dakota
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8/27/2006
11:43:17
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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GraphiteDak the output speed sensor on the tranny is a backup for vehicle speed sensor. each is a backup for the other that's why the 46RE has an output speed sensor also its not needed for vehicles with ABS. the TCM takes inputs from both sensors to determine vehicle speed
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parts manager
Dodge Dakota
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8/27/2006
14:01:13
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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my personal opinion is yes flash updates are worth the money esp since the software is original in your TCM+PCM and this was the first year the 45RFE was installed in the Dakota. most of the updates are usually shift improvements.
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Bart
Dodge Dakota
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6/11/2009
21:47:50
| RE: Auto Trans Slips/shifts hard + MIL on
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Same thing here got new sensor and went to put in what sensor do i change, my book does not tell me
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