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R/TVOLTA
Dodge Dakota
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8/12/2006
17:31:03
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 Subject: msd
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would it be worth switching from stock ignition to msd ignition
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Obio3
Dodge Dakota
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8/12/2006
18:30:11
|  RE: msd
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MSD is a good product. But it has no value to you unless you have heavy mods.They have a rep of burning out your dist cap, rotor, wires and plugs much faster then normal. I bought one and run it for one year. sold it. It did absolutley nothing for my truck that I ever seen other then burn up the ignition system.
So many problems .... So little time
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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8/13/2006
11:20:55
| RE: msd
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Lots of people run MSD without any problem at all. MSD has been around for many years and I've never heard of a correctly installed MSD burning up all the components of an ignition system. It will perform just as well without mods as with a ton of mods. Heavily modded everything will just perform better.
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Obio3
Dodge Dakota
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8/13/2006
23:15:17
| RE: msd
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With all due respect N56629, I'm not talking for fun. What I said I stand by. MSD is hard on your ignition components. I was running JACOBS wires. BRASS caps. BRASS ROTORS. and they was shot in half the time. JACOBS WIRES are considered top of the line at 85 bucks a set at the time. That MSD distroyed 2 of them. Sorry guy. Your opinion is your choice. I gave mine and I stick by it. Have a good day.
So many problems .... So little time
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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8/14/2006
06:40:48
| RE: msd
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Obio3, good for you. Let me know when someone wants to back up your claims with similar experiences. Your experience is just that, your experience. I've been running a 6A for about a year and there is no sign of problems with the cap or the rotor.
Now what about your theory that it is a "a good product" - "But it has no value to you unless you have heavy mods."
Exactly what mods should be done prior to using an MSD system? I'm sure thousands of people would like to know so that they are not destroying their ignition systems.
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Obio3
Dodge Dakota
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8/14/2006
12:09:58
| RE: msd
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Not going to get in a shooting match with you. If it makes you happy use it. Others in here have ststed the same experances I had. No perfomacance gain. No milage gain. Shorter life on ignition parts. By heavy mods I mean S/C, T/C, Serious internal mods . These mods can make use of the extra spark. A stock or near stock engine has no use for this. Keep in mind, I do and did say the MSD is a fine product but needs to be used in proper situations.There are those that just like the idea of saying they have one. If they got the money go for it. My experances were real and I acted acordenly by getting it off my truck. By no means well it actually hurt your truck. Just a mater of being practical.I stated my thoughts here because it was my experance and I felt the need to express my opinion.
So many problems .... So little time
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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8/14/2006
13:13:33
| RE: msd
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Obio3, you the man and thousands of other MSD owners just don't know what they are doing or talking about.
In your expert opinion, what causes the extra wear and tear on ignition components?
Btw, I didn't say I had a problem with your "opinion."
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Obio3
Dodge Dakota
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8/14/2006
13:58:09
| RE: msd
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N56629...... ty for your respect. The msd throws a double spark Which has the ability to cut life of ignition parts in half. Don't know how many miles a year you drive. At the time I had mine I was doing 40,000 A year so at 20,000 or 6 months, I had to do a full tunup. The real reason to have an MSD on your engine is to help prevent cavatation whish is far far more prevalent on performance engines moving a lot more air through the combustion chambers. The MSD allows for 2 chances to prevent a missfire.By all means, If you have serious mods the MSD is the way to go. I think that answers your question.
So many problems .... So little time
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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8/14/2006
15:28:43
| RE: msd
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>> "would it be worth switching from stock ignition to msd ignition" <<
In a word, no.
Here's my understanding in a nutshell. The ignition system is capable of producing X amount of voltage. But it will only produce exactly what it needs, and no more.
A stock engine needs about 35K-40K volts to produce a good spark. If you put a 100K volt system in , it will still only produce 35K-40K.
In engines that are hard to fire - high compression, nitrous, blower - it may take 50K to make a good spark. Then you need the high voltage system.
The MSD box alone really only does two things - 1. produce multiple sparks. Hence the name MSD - Multiple Spark Discharge. It produces multiple sparks up to about 3,000 rpm's. This might help with cold starting, low speed operation, etc.
The second thing it does is provide full power to the coil, so it produces a full power spark every time. But remember that full power means as much power as is needed. That's where an aftermarket coil is needed. Go to the MSD web site for more details.
So multiple sparks, all at full power. Will this wear out the ignition system faster? Sure it will! Think about it for a moment.
As to the effects on a stock motor, almost nil. No more power at the wheels, no decreased emissions, and no better fuel mileage. Maybe better starting or smoother idle. Maybe. IMO, not worth the trouble or expense.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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8/14/2006
16:16:05
| RE: msd
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Bob came closest to my understanding. Yes it is possible that cause more wear due to the multiple spark but I don't think it is as bad as Obio3 makes it out to be. I'm sure he had the experience he claims.
I do take issue with some of their comments though. The multiple spark and duration of those sparks give a similar result to having two spark plugs. Anyone familiar with aircraft engines knows that it makes the engines far more efficient than engines with single spark plugs. Shutting off the magneto to either plug causes a lose of both rpm and power.
Another issue is that it doesn't simply produce just two sparks but as many as it can during the 20 degrees of duration. The number of sparks is reduced as rpm's increase but the duration of the spark stays the same.
My own experience suggest that it does its job at high speeds. Prior to installation my truck took a bit of effort to get over 120 mph. Now it effortlessly exceeds 135 mph. Because of multiple mods I can't attribute other things solely to msd but my gas mileage has gone from 16-17 to 17-19 mpg. It definately has hurt anything. If I burn up a set of Autolites every year, at less than $16 a set, so be it. The brass cap and rotor, I believe, was less than $20. All in all that is not a bad trade off. I've been running for over year and about 20,000 miles. Maybe I'll pull some plugs and look at the cap.
I don't believe in every thing a manufacturer claims but I've included the information from MSD anyway.
"In the real world, this how an MSD Ignition works. At low rpm the MSD produces a series of sparks during each firing instead of one like a conventional ignition. At low engine speeds when the air/fuel molecules are not finely atomized, the multiple spark feature still ignites the mixture. But this isn't the only feature. The number of sparks produced by the MSD Is reduced as engine rpm increases simply because "time" becomes too short to repeat a spark. However, the spark series always lasts for 20 degrees of crankshaft rotation no matter what the rpm and no matter whether it is a single spark or a series of four or five spark. This 20 degree duration spark sequence insures that the air/fuel mixture is ignited and completely burned. Also each spark the MSD produces is an extremely high current spark. Current is like the heat of the flamethrower. Current is what actually does the work or in this case ignites the fuel mixture. Together, the multiple sparks, the high current and the 20 degree duration, produce an ignition that is superior to any other ignition. More importantly though, the MSD Ignition ignites the fuel mixture in the cylinder instantly and insure complete combustion, no matter what the molecular composition is. The result is reduced variations in burn times and therefore more engine power, better throttle response, easier starting and better fuel economy."
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Obio3
Dodge Dakota
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8/14/2006
18:34:02
| RE: msd
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The msd world sounds fantastic. Actual sientific evedence. #1 You can only light gas once and it is done with one spark. #2 Each spark MSD delivers Takes a piece of metal off the rotor, cap and spark plug giving shorter life. #3 Fact. As your engine revs, The coil has less time to build to full power so the higher the rev the less energy there is to suply to the ignition (MSD included) This is the real reason the Msd Supplies LESS multiple spark and supplis NO multiple spark above aproxamatly 3,000 RPM. There for on any engine the msd faids out. #4 in order for the MSD to supply a hotter spark at these higher RPMs it would physically have to be able to hold back the firing of the plug to allow the coil to generate the power to produce this hot spark. Doing so would require the MSD to retard or delay the spark effectively retarding timing and cause much loss of power. #5 Larger coils. There really nice when you have a use for one. Here's what almost nobody realizes because they do not study up on it. Hot coiles are usless unless you regulary rev your engine ABOVE 8,000 RPM. This is all proven fact. Now I'm always willing to learn. But I know for fact all I say here is absolutely true. Show me real evidence any of this is not true. Readable evadence from independant tests NOT MSDs advertising gobble.
So many problems .... So little time
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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8/14/2006
19:27:33
| RE: msd
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"Actual sientific evedence. #1 You can only light gas once and it is done with one spark."
Then explain why most piston powered aircraft engines run smoother and more efficiently with two spark plugs. I know the need for redundancy but the change in rpm's and power is clearly evident. If what you say is absolutely true then spark plug placement and even timing are totally irrelevant. Let's face it, even a very weak spark can "light gas."
" #2 Each spark MSD delivers Takes a piece of metal off the rotor, cap and spark plug giving shorter life."
Therefore we should all run around in the highest gear possible and always try to minimize engine rpms. Right off hand I don't think to many people are interested in doing that, especially not around here. Anyone for some 2.92 gears?
"#3 Fact. As your engine revs, The coil has less time to build to full power so the higher the rev the less energy there is to suply to the ignition (MSD included) This is the real reason the Msd Supplies LESS multiple spark and supplis NO multiple spark above aproxamatly 3,000 RPM. There for on any engine the msd faids out."
I think that is exactly what MSD tells you. Hard to argue a given.
"#4 in order for the MSD to supply a hotter spark at these higher RPMs it would physically have to be able to hold back the firing of the plug to allow the coil to generate the power to produce this hot spark. Doing so would require the MSD to retard or delay the spark effectively retarding timing and cause much loss of power."
No, it has to build voltage sooner and faster. It fires for a twenty degree duration and has the other 340 degrees to build that spark. It does so by reducing the number of sparks until it can no longer reach maximum voltage with more than one spark. Obviously there is an rpm limit where it can no longer do that.
"Now I'm always willing to learn. But I know for fact all I say here is absolutely true."
You can't learn when you believe that you already have all the facts and they are "absolutely true."
Anyhow it will be interesting to learn from you why some engines have been designed to use up to three spark plugs. I'll let you explain why they were wrong, their designs didn't work and they only had to light the gas once.
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Obio3
Dodge Dakota
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8/14/2006
22:21:28
| RE: msd
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Air planes are designed with 2 plugs for good reason. Safty. Not unusal to have a plug go south. With one plug the plane goes south too. I'm 63 . I had a shop for over 40 years. Ignition systems alwas fasenated me. I couldn't posible live long enough to reread all I have read. I stand by what I say. And this is all i'm going to say here. Your intitled to beleave as you wish. So am I. I said I wouldn't get in a shooting match and that's exactly what has happened. I'm done with it. Enjoy your MSD. It's your right.
So many problems .... So little time
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r/tvolta
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2006
16:37:42
| gears!!!
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does anyone have gears, wat kind and why,looking to purchase some,
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r/tvolta
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2006
16:40:05
| supercharger
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imlooking to get a supercharger for my dodge r/t what is recommended
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2006
20:03:57
| RE: msd
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Obio3, I've been flying since I was 16 so I have good idea why piston aircraft engines have two plugs. That's why I said "redundancy." Now why you chose to skip the more pertinent aspects of my question is puzzling unless you don't know the answer. You failed to explain why the engine produces more power with two plugs than with one plug. With one plug the plane does NOT go south, in fact you can even take off and fly with only one plug and one mag. With only one plug firing the engine typically loses 100-200 rpm. That's substantial when you are only turning 1500-1800 rpm to begin with.
With all your expertise I'm sure that you have worked on two plug rotary engines and know how well they run on one plug. There's an engine that doesn't need redundancy. Why the extra plug? If you don't know I can sure help you out.
I'm not asking you to get into a shooting (shouting???) match just asking that you back up your assertions.
The one I took great exception to was the suggestion that you needed mods like a supercharger or turbo charger to take advantage of an MSD ignition system. First of all you wouldn't use a 6A system. Second, that would make the 6A a totally useless system since it is primarily for NA engines. You could use a 6A but then you would would have to control spark retard with a different unit.
The other was your claim that any old spark that will ignite the gas is good enough. It is such a broad generalization as to be totally false or at the very least bad information.
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Obio3
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2006
23:28:26
| RE: msd
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You misread what I ment. What I said is with out question part of the reason there are 2 plugs. The extra power is a bonus. What I ment was If you was to have just one plug in an air plane.If that single plug failes, the plane goes south. Argue that fact. simple logic. The rotory engine is not the only auto to use 2 plugs to a cylinder but your moving into another area of automotive science. Also the datsun had a dual point dist. but only one set fired at any given time based on rpm fired by one of 2 ignitions. There was a lot of strange things done to engines that disapered in a short time for the most part. Don't know why you want to keep this post going. You made your point and you stand by it just as I did and do mine. Your truck runs and so does mine.
So many problems .... So little time
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TuckerLdlow
Dodge Dakota
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8/17/2006
03:04:47
| RE: msd
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I think that both Obio3 and N56629 (is that a tail number?) have good points, and maybe one or both can answer this one - isn't it the coil itself that determines how much voltage is going to the spark? Isn't that what ultimately leads to the higher ignition system wear and tear on those trucks that have MSD's installed?
Reason I ask is that I have one that I've had for quite some time, and have never installed simply because of all the posts that I've seen here related to higher utilization of wires, but primarily rotors and caps. What I was looking for when I bought it was the multispark, thinking that I'd more completely burn the fuel that is injected. My truck seldom runs over 2200 RPM, and most of the time it's under 2K. If what I'm thinking is correct, I should be able to install it with a STOCK coil, and still get the multispark result, right? Without burning up rotors and caps?
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Obio3
Dodge Dakota
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8/17/2006
17:01:49
| RE: msd
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TUCKER.... you are correct. Weak coil, weak spark. To much coil can lead to cavatation. The MSD is unneed in a stock or lightly moded enging. MSD does it's thing on heavy moded engines and does it's best stuff if your regularly running over 8,000 RPM. This doesn't mean you can,t run one but there is no advantage. No MPG increase. No power increase. Mutiple spark is good for what it was intended to do. In essence, the first spark lights the gas. once light there is no advantage to any more sparks. Throw some gas on the ground. Use one match. Watch the flam spread rapidly. The combustion chamber works the same way. The best thing you csn do for a stock or near stock engine is replace your coil with one that states veriable spark. Or any words that can represent that.They are 40,000 volt coils. These coils will give you a good spark farther into the high RPMs hands down. To complement this. use brass dist and roter. quality wires and good plugs. I use champion truck plugs in mine. They realy do a nice job. N56629 has dofferant reasoning then I do. I can only tell you my way works great and you will never know unless you try it. No question you would be impressed.There are a couple guys in this forum did as I say and were totally impressed.
So many problems .... So little time
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Kowalski
GenIII
8/19/2006
07:11:57
| RE: msd
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Its the ratio of the number of windings in the secondary circuit of the coil compared to the number in the primary that determines the voltage - basically a transformer. Not all the mix is completely fired with each spark - the increased efficiency is why you'll see the rpm drop with one plug wire pulled, as N56629 explains. Obio3 is right about his claim that you'll see more effect in a high performance motor. Gas on the ground isn't exactly the same as compressed gas in a combustion chamber, to which more mixture is still being added by the cam as the mix is fired.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
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Obio3
Dodge Dakota
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8/19/2006
19:16:55
| RE: msd
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I was only trying to make a easy visual to understand how gas acts to a spark plug. I agree. not near the same but gets the point across.
So many problems ... So little time
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