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23:58:15 - 12/19/2024
V6 Dakotas
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
4/15/2004
23:18:35
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 Subject: RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
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from C.A.R.B
"Existing law in California exempts all pre 1974 vehicles from emissions testing until 2003. After 2003, vehicles 30 years old and older will be exempt from emissions testing."
now that's California's law. Other states have adapted 20-25 years and nothing before 1974.
why was your '72 Dart getting tested?
Last time i had my 1998 dakota tested with the 3.9, it had 6 hydrocarbons at idle. The standard for it's weight in Texas is 200. Now it doesnt have an EGR on it and there isnt any special variable valve timing or four valves per cylinder (still dont see how that helps) to lower emissions. What did they do to lower the emissions so much?
it was also pretty cute the way you compared a 4 cylinder multiport fuel injected motor with an O2 sensor to a 1972 dodge V8 (dont tell me you drive a 72 slant six) that probably isnt stock and probably has some mileage on it. Or let me guess, you completely restored it with emissions in mind and installed an EGR on it, stock cam and only 4K miles on it??
apples to oranges.
now here is apples to apples... comparison of your daytona to my shelby
1985 Shelby Charger
2.2 + 040
FM 475 racing cam
JE high rev lifters
JE high rev lash adjusters
MP 27 lb injectors
MP controller
13 lbs boost
2.5" exhaust, no muffler, cat for testing only
Magnecore plug wires
S&B filter
REMOVED EGR
ran in the 20's on the HC. And i dont think it was the EGR to blame.
6.6 Lt. Big Block, 727 TF shift kit, 452 heads, edelbrock 750 cfm, .513/.513 284/300 crower cam, comp cams springs, comp cams pushrods, 1.5 roller rockers, dp intake, mopar ignition, mopar windage tray, dual exhaust w/ 40 series flowmasters, 4.10 gears, coilover drag suspension, approx, 3500 lbs
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J and J Auto
GenII
4/15/2004
23:41:28
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
Intense,
Its just normal for these chrysler techs to think
they know more than anyone on the planet
I find it quite entertaining
like the one who said I am a 5 star mechanic and
a 4 stroke motor needs no back presure to run
LOL LOL LOL
My old lady is going to wonder why I am coming to
bed with a smile on my face and laughing
You want to see some techs scatter come with me
and walk in the local chrysler dealer they see me
and run and all I hear is the manager being paged
to the service desk
LOL LOL LOL
They are afraid to even talk to me because I know
a few big boys in detroit that I talk with all
the time about this stuff and make them feel bad
when they are unable to answer questions
Larry
J&J Auto
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
4/16/2004
07:03:52
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
yeah it's all kinda funny... especially when all we did was answer the guys post on how to disable an EGR. answering it wasnt enough for others.
6.6 Lt. Big Block, 727 TF shift kit, 452 heads, edelbrock 750 cfm, .513/.513 284/300 crower cam, comp cams springs, comp cams pushrods, 1.5 roller rockers, dp intake, mopar ignition, mopar windage tray, dual exhaust w/ 40 series flowmasters, 4.10 gears, coilover drag suspension, approx, 3500 lbs
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/16/2004
23:05:11
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
"How can the computer fire the valve when on the
92 to 94 there is no electrical connection to
the transducer"
From my 92 Dakota FSM:
"3.9L/5.2L engines
The Electric Exhaust Gas Recirculation Transducer (EET) is a back pressure transducer and an electric vacuum solenoid combined into a single unit (Figs. 8 and 9). The vacuum solenoid portion of the EET receives its electrical signal from the engine controller."
So much for YOUR expertise.
"why was your '72 Dart getting tested?"
Because Massachusetts implemented emissions testing for all cars newer than 1968 in 1983. As of 1990, cars here that are older than 1983 no longer need testing. Cars that are 1984 or newer must be tested for their entire lives.
"Last time i had my 1998 dakota tested with the 3.9, it had 6 hydrocarbons at idle. The standard for it's weight in Texas is 200. Now it doesnt have an EGR on it and there isnt any special variable valve timing or four valves per cylinder (still dont see how that helps) to lower emissions. What did they do to lower the emissions so much?"
EGR lowers NOx emissions only, not HC emissions. Catcons are used to lower HC emissions. I can tell you really know your stuff.
"it was also pretty cute the way you compared a 4 cylinder multiport fuel injected motor with an O2 sensor to a 1972 dodge V8 (dont tell me you drive a 72 slant six) that probably isnt stock and probably has some mileage on it. Or let me guess, you completely restored it with emissions in mind and installed an EGR on it, stock cam and only 4K miles on it??"
I don't have to tell you anything, you invent what you want to believe. My Daytonas don't have multiport FI, they were both TBI. And yes, my 72 Dart was a slant-6, and the only thing not stock was a capacitive discharge ignition. It had all of its original equipment, including OSAC.
"Its just normal for these chrysler techs to think they know more than anyone on the planet"
??? What are you SMOKING? I'm not a Chrysler tech, never said I was. I'm an engineer.
Maybe it would help if when you were ripping the emissions controls off those cars, you knew what each one actually did.
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/19/2004
13:55:47
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
QED.
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J and J Auto
GenII
4/19/2004
14:50:34
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
I had enough and am going to egnor you from here
I know how the EGR is set up and how it works
on the dodge trucks they added the elec connection
so you could read position of transducer with a
scanner.
The purge valve and suply are run through an
entirely diff valve located over the valve cover
back drivers side.
It has a bleed with a small filter on bottom and
is a on off switch.
The bleed will raise vac as engine rpm increases
to balance between vac and exhaust back presure
at idle or excelleration the valve does not open
under deceleration exhaust presure drops and it
will open also during crusing speeds it will
cycle at times.
Bottom of valve transducer unit is a diaphram that
will close off vac to the valve when exhaust
presure rises via a tube from exh presure side
As I said in an earlier post if bad will cause
poor idle and performance and blocking the tube
will solve this and I also listed where you
could get the replacements cheap
I think you need to disasemble a dodge egr and see
how its set up, the bottom comes of and you will
find a dia and spring calibrated to exhaust back
presure
Larry
J&J Auto
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Bump
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/19/2004
14:50:57
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
Poor BOB
Don't know the difference between an Engine
Controller Module and a " Computer "
Or the difference between a " properly tuned "
engine
and some beaten up old engine with no oil change since it was bought ?????????
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/19/2004
16:44:20
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
You can add cryptic insults here, but you still do not refute the facts I posted. The EGR valve controls NOX emissions, not HC. And first you state there is no electrical connection to the EGR, then you admit there is one. So you have read up on them, apparently, or looked at one.
Then you claim to know states' emissions laws, saying that nothing before 1974 was tested, when in fact MA has done testing since 1983, initially on cars of 1969 vintage and newer, and in 1990 put the cutoff at 1984 and newer.
I have disassembled the transducer in order to troubleshoot it and am familiar with its contents.
"Or the difference between a " properly tuned "
engine
and some beaten up old engine with no oil change since it was bought ?????????" I presume you're referring to some vehicle of yours here. There is no explanation given for this sentence, and it doesn't tie back to any post.
It would appear that someone else is lacking in knowledge.
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???
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/19/2004
17:02:26
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
what kinda testing did they do on vehicles in 1969?
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Mom
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/19/2004
17:15:09
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
To err is human
to egr is stupid
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
4/19/2004
17:15:21
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
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Message:
Bob,
Before 1975, there were no catalytic converters, egr, or unleaded gas. What kinda emissions testing was going on before then and what were they using to help reduce the emissions of those vehicles?
"Since they first appeared on 1975 model year vehicles, catalytic converters have made a significant impact on both pollution and performance" - Random Technology Catalytic Converters
"At least one catalytic converter has been used on cars since 1975" - http://www.carcarecouncil.org/Exhaust/catalytic_converter.shtml
please let me know.. because for some reason i dont see why MA was doing testing in 1969 on vehicles running on leaded gas. In fact, MA is so leniant on testing, that if a vehicle is over 10 years old, it doesnt even have to pass... yet you state they were doing emissions testing on vehicles without emissions equipment??
Just show me some proof of it.. i dont care to hear "well back in 1983 when i had my 1972 crooked six pisa, i had to pass an emissions test..."
6.6 Lt. Big Block, 727 TF shift kit, 452 heads, edelbrock 750 cfm, .513/.513 284/300 crower cam, comp cams springs, comp cams pushrods, 1.5 roller rockers, dp intake, mopar ignition, mopar windage tray, dual exhaust w/ 40 series flowmasters, 4.10 gears, coilover drag suspension, approx, 3500 lbs
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/19/2004
19:58:25
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
"Bob,
Before 1975, there were no catalytic converters, egr, or unleaded gas. What kinda emissions testing was going on before then and what were they using to help reduce the emissions of those vehicles?"
I guess you have a reading disability. Read my posts again - I said testing began in 1983, not 1969, on cars that were of 1969 vintage and older. So cars built before then were exempt. As to controls, many things were done before 1975 - air pumps to inject air into the exhaust; OSAC (Orifice Spark Advance Control) valves delayed engine vacuum to the distributor to hold back ignition timing advance on acceleration, as early as 1970 on some Chryslers; reduced compression ratios to reduce cylinder temperatures and therefore NOx emissions; evaporative fuel vapor canisters lowered HC emissions by recycling carburetor bowl vent fumes back into the engine; electronic ignition was introduced in part to lower emissions by keeping cars in tune longer.
"please let me know.. because for some reason i dont see why MA was doing testing in 1969 on vehicles running on leaded gas. In fact, MA is so leniant on testing, that if a vehicle is over 10 years old, it doesnt even have to pass... yet you state they were doing emissions testing on vehicles without emissions equipment??"
Your statements are false. My 72 Dart had an air pump, OSAC and evaporative fuel vapor canister. Testing is STILL mandatory for cars over 10 years old in MA:
http://www.vehicletest.state.ma.us/generalinfo.html#exemptions
Are any vehicles exempt from the Enhanced Emissions Safety Test?
Every vehicle must be brought in for a safety test every year. However, model year 1983 and older vehicles will not be required to have emissions tests. New cars will be exempt for their first two years.
http://www.state.ma.us/rmv/inspect/540cmr4/sec404a.htm
And MA is NOT lenient on testing.
http://www.state.ma.us/rmv/inspect/540cmr4/sec404b.htm
http://www.mass.gov/dep/consumer/lev.htm
About 10% of cars fail routinely here for emissions. There are procedures for retest to challenge the results.
"i dont care to hear "well back in 1983 when i had my 1972 crooked six pisa, i had to pass an emissions test..."
So don't listen. They were testing back then, on all vehicles newer than 1968. In 1999, the curb idle test was replaced with dynamometer testing, and in 2002, OBDII testing began, where emissions is guaranteed by successful scan of parameters via the diagnostic connector for cars 1996 and newer.
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Bump
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/20/2004
09:40:35
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
bump
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J and J Auto
GenII
4/20/2004
13:52:33
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
Read my posty I said nox gas
2 the electrical connection was added in 1995 to
the egr transducer to read position 92 to 94 the
transducers had no wires or elec connection to
them.
The purge solonoid is an entierly diff animal and
is about a foot and a half away from the
transducer yes that valve has an electrical
connection to shut vac off to the valve the
transducer its self is not controled electronicly
on these trucks and was completly eliminated in
1996
Now I know the answer to this I want to hear yours
What did mopar do on the mag engines to keep the
nox gas down after eliminating the EGR in 1996
and newer mag engines (No EGR)96 and up
I am waiting, or you could call chrysler tech and
get the answer
Larry
J&J Auto
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watkinstick
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/20/2004
14:51:35
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
Well here in Oklahoma we don't have to even worry about the emmision testings.
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/20/2004
16:25:51
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
"92 to 94 the
transducers had no wires or elec connection to
them."
Wrong. Read my post again from the FSM. I looked under the hood, and it is correct, same setup as my 92 Daytona. The transducer is right next to the EGR valve and has the electric solenoid connection.
"What did mopar do on the mag engines to keep the
nox gas down after eliminating the EGR in 1996
and newer mag engines (No EGR)96 and up"
I don't know, I'm just a customer. If you're curious, you call Chrysler. It doesn't change the fact that it's illegal to remove emissions controls on vehicles that were equipped with them.
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/20/2004
18:48:25
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
By the way, your "posty" said that HC emissions still passed after removing EGR. Of course, because EGR lowers NOx emissions, not HC. So there was no effect on HC. However, NOx emissions could only have gotten worse by blocking the tube; even if they still passed, they would be much higher.
So, to settle this once and for all, since you don't believe the Chrysler Factory Service Manual:
here is a 92 Dakota:
http://cohannetweb.com/rlincoln/92Dakota.jpg
and here is its EGR valve and transducer, with its electric solenoid connection clearly shown:
http://cohannetweb.com/rlincoln/EGR.jpg
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/21/2004
10:19:40
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
QED
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J and J Auto
GenII
4/21/2004
10:54:04
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
1992 dodge dakota 3.9 EGR Valve no elec connection
I would think a man such as yourself with a formal
education would have more to offer this board than
argumentation
If you want to do that stay home and do it with
your wife, if you have one your attitude tells
me the argumentive nature you have would keep
you from having one
There is no law against a owner removing anything
they want from there vehicles, we do not all live
in califonia where the smog is so bad and there
are stricter laws
Grow up and be a man not an A$$ and get along with
your fellow man, want to fight join the marines
and go to irac
by by bobbie
Larry
J&J Auto
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Bob Lincoln
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/21/2004
12:52:17
| RE: Larry--disable EGR
IP: Logged
Message:
It's a shame you are more adept at, and interested in, insults than in automotive knowledge. Most forums like this are used by enthusiasts who want to share helpful knowledge rather than slam people.
"There is no law against a owner removing anything
they want from there vehicles, we do not all live
in califonia where the smog is so bad and there
are stricter laws"
Again, you are wrong, it is a federal crime for anyone to remove pollution controls from their vehicle:
http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/title2.html#iia
http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa203.txt
Section 203 (a)(3)(A) The following acts and the causing thereof are
prohibited-
3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any
device or element of design installed on or in a motor
vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regula-
tions under this title prior to its sale and delivery to the
ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or
render inoperative any such device or element of design
after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser;
http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa205.txt
SEC. 205. CIVIL PENALTIES.
(a) Violations.- Any person otherthan a manufacturer or
dealer who violates section 203(a)(3)(A) or any person who
violates section 203(a)(3)(B) shall be subject to a civil penalty
of not more than $2,500.
That's called a felony.
Too bad you're not grown up enough to admit your mistakes. I posted the *photo* of an actual EGR valve from my 1992 Dakota 3.9L V-6. It clearly shows the electrical connection to the transducer. I know you looked at it, your visit is recorded in my webserver log. I posted the actual text from the Chrysler Factory Service Manual describing the electrical connection. You posted an unlabeled sketch of unknown origin, a generic sketch.
All along here, you have posted incorrect information, and respond with insults instead of admitting you're wrong. This just undermines your own credentials as a professional, and shows a lack of adult behavior yourself.
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