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2003DakQC
Dodge Dakota
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1/16/2004
17:03:49
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 Subject: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Hopefully this will put the TB issue away for awhile.
I know there are people with one or the other maybe some have had both.
All else aside which seems to give the best improvement in performance.
| A STOCK V8 TB | | or | A MODIFIED V6 TB
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J and J Auto
GenII
1/16/2004
17:57:14
|  RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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If the mod V6 body is a 46mm yes it is better
than the V8 with the 50mm plates and the 48mm
torque step
If 42 or 44 no, The V6 came with 3 different sizes
42mm with 40 step
44mm with 42 step
46mm with 44 step
Depending on what was on there shelf when the
truck was built. You need to measure the plates to
see what you got year make or model makes no
difference you can have the exact same year and
model truck and have 2 different bodies.
Just the facts of the matter
Reason being that the step from the plates being
50mm and the manifold 48mm causes a lose in
velocity
The Fastman mod bodies are 46mm
Now the best you can get is the 48mm F&B matched
to the manifold and designed specifically for the V6
V8 good econo way to go
Fastman better
F&B best
Larry
J&J Auto
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Greg
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/17/2004
14:16:32
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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I personally went for the Holley dual 52mm "5.9l Performance TB" I got for $152.00 shipped... I know a lot of people on here told me it was overkill, I would bog out at lower rpm's, waste of money, allready made mods wouldn't help, and to come mods wouldn't help any as well... Well for yall out there who said that, YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT!!! I couldn't be any happier... Sure I had to put on a $30.00 throttle cable, take off my helix bore spacer "I'll get it cut in half and redone and put it back on later possibly", and had to buy 3 new rubber seals to space up to where my stock "warped" plastic intake wouldn't seal off correctly... That by the way was $14.00... So all together $196.00... Not bad compared to the smaller throttle body for 2 something huh... Now as far as performance, no bogging, even popped the clutch and gased at the same time, accelerated out of the hole quicker than ever before and spun a little more than before, hit that 3000 rpm mark where the stock cam on the Magnums really kicks in and then it really took off, hit second spun a little more than normal again, kept on accelerating quicker than before, again no bogging and hit 75mph in same area that I ussually would only hit high 50's to low 60's in... That really surprised me more than ever and I wasn't even maxing out my rpm's in each gear like I had to before with my stock TB ;)) As far as driving around you can tell it has more power as well with more torque... It'll lug around in high gears better than before as well... The only thing I have against it and find it to be about the same as the old throttle body, is when your in 5th gear and idling around at about 1000rpm's to 1300rpm's and hit a hill, then it'll lug about the same pulling the hill as it did with the old throttle body and pull out of the lug about the same as it did with the old throttle body... Thats really the only way I've noticed having a draw back or being the same as the stock... It'll also idle at about 900rpm's which in a way is what I tried to get my old one to do, but failed misserably and am happier that it does idle a little faster over stock... This is because I have been known to go into the office at work "planning on coming right back out" and the truck will wind up idling for around 2hrs with lower "idle" oil pressure, because I get stuck talking or going over something so now I don't have to worry about engine damage at the least due to lower oil circulation...
So all in all I'm really happy and I'm sure I'll be even happier with the opening up with the port and polish of the intake and heads with this throttle body...
Now I don't have or have had any experiance with the moded V6 TB or with the stock V8's so I can't tell you if this one is any better than those or not, but if some have bogging and airflow problems with the stock V8's then I would think that this one is better...
Just my opinion anyhow :))
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Me
Dodge Dakota
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1/17/2004
14:40:44
|  RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Message:
I'm glad Larry has figured out how to Copy & Paste
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pad
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/17/2004
22:07:28
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Message:
There is much on the market right now. Bottom line, what are you trying to accomplish? If you want a simple upgrade, go to a modified V6 TB. If you want to go for real performance go to a modified V8 TB with the bores opened up on the intake, otherwise your added air flow will be corked up at the intake. You might gain some thing, but without taking everything into consideration you are just wasting time and money. Go to the tech section for V6s on www.hughesengines.com.
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J and J Auto
GenII
1/17/2004
23:03:13
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Message:
I'm glad Larry has figured out how to Copy & Paste
Don't know what this comment is about
I have run all 3 V8 fastman and the F&B
So the 52mm you are using reacted the same as a V8 tb
No low end gains same as V8 body although a few trucks
will lose a very small amount just off idle. Small amount
I have never said a bog, anyone experiencing a bad bog
probably has some other issues they need to deal with
The V8 body should not cause the motor to bog
V8 body top end gains yes just like your 52mm with
the low end remaining the same
The diff here is the fastman and F&B also will give
you some low end gains.
Did you open the bores on the manifold or remain
at 48mm
Larry
J&J Auto
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Greg
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/18/2004
11:39:00
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Message:
Larry, I never said that you were the one who told me that it would bog down, but several other members on here have said just that... I did get some low end torque, but not what I was looking forward to... I haven't bored out the intake manifold "yet"... "YET" being the best keyword there... I plan on boring out the intake manifold when I pull the heads and intake off for the port and polish... This will also be the time that I put in the 1.7 roller rockers, shave heads and intake .015" "which will give more valve lift from unaltered pushrods and more compression"... I will also port match the intake to the heads and maybe exhaust manifold if I don't go with headers... AND maybe replace valve guides and seats while I'm into this area...
I was planning on having the intake bored out to around dual 53 or 54mm bores to free up a little more air turbulance interferrance... What do you think about that??? Besides running on the limits of wall thicknesses...
I will say one more thing that I really like about the new Holley TB... Fuel milleage :)) I haven't figured it up yet, but on my fuel gage where I ussually get 70 miles and 75 miles at best, I've right now got 92 miles on the trip computer at the same mark and that's with a lot of nice taking off from stop shifting sprees if you know what I meen... I love every aspect of this new throttle body and every bit of the pain and cussing that came from having to switch the thottle linkage, center intake bolt, and modifying intake a little more was ALL worth it for the power, torque, and fuel milleage gains... Heck with the old TB, I was getting 25 to 28mpg out on the Highway depending on how big of a hurry I was in, so this one oughta be more in the 30mpg that I've been trying to reach... I don't know if the port and polish, head shave, and roller rockers will help anymore or not as far as fuel milleage, but I sure hope so and figure on just a touch more at the least...
I'm planning on getting the truck chasi dynoed in the next week or so for some before and after numbers if I ever figure out where the place is in Asheville, NC, so I'll let you know how everything turns out for the before numbers with hp, torque, and fuel milleage since it's all pretty much highway driving there "75 - 85 miles" ;))
Do you have any prefferances toward roller rockers??? I looked at the ones from Sam at fastdodge.com "$341.00 shipped", but heard that the alluminum one's will bend after so long from stress and would have to be readjusted every so often, so do you have any better knolledge of steel rockers with 1.7 ratio's for the 3.9l's... I was also told that the stamped steel ones have some problems as well, so just what are the best???
Thanks,
Greg
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tazzy
GenIII
1/18/2004
13:42:11
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Message:
"I was getting 25 to 28mpg out on the Highway depending on how big of a hurry I was in, so this one oughta be more in the 30mpg that I've been trying to reach"..
I'd be happy with 20 on the highway..
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JimRoss
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
14:11:20
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Isnt that the truth... I get 20-21 on its best days freeway and only if I maintain 70mph. To get 25-28 would be a wet dream!
I have a chance to get a 52mm custom TB for a reasonable price ( looks very close to a F&B ).
I am installing a better air intake and buying a Superchips tuner next week. Am I asking for trouble by using a 52mm instead of a 48 or 50?
Or, will the new air intake and the tuner just about max out what I can get for HP? I'm not wanting to do an exhaust at this time. Its a lease truck, so I'm trying to keep it to simple cheap bolt-ons. Not sure if I will keep it at end lease or upgrade to a Hemi ( prolly end up with a Hemi ).
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Greg
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
16:08:47
|  RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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For my fuel milleage gains I use the following ---
Custom Cold Air Intake "bought for $40.00 over ebay, the cheep chrome one"
Tornado "bought for $35.00 over ebay from nukethehut guy"
Helix bore throttle body spacer "got for $37.00 over ebay"
All of these brought fuel milleage up to around 22mpg to 23mpg on highway at best...
Then I changed the following ---
Bosch quad plugs "$40.00 at Auto Zone"
Bosch plug wires "around $40.00 at Auto Zone"
Distributor cap and rotor "around $15.00 at Auto Zone"
New Cat since old one burnt up "$110.00 from Napa"
These only helped performance and to run a little smoother, no real fuel milleage gain "maybe 1.something mpg", but well worth it
Then I started using ---
Mobil 1 "full syn" 0w-30 motor oil
Mobil 1 "full syn" gear oil "75-90" in tranny and rear end
Fuel system cleaner "3 things of Chevron Techron, and 1/5 quart of Marvel Mystery oil" equivalent of 50 or so gallon treatment every month or everyother month --- This alone got rid of knocking and clicking noise coming form injectors and made up for the rest of my fuel milleage gains...
I also use midoctane to premium which alone will give you 1.something more miles to a gallon... Trust me I check it everytime I fill up and fill up at the very same station at the very same pump every time that I can, unless I'm really far out of town and running low... I always figure up my mpg with calculator to the .000...
Yeh I can remember when I did get around 18mpg at best and around 14 to 15mpg just driving around...
The last trip I went on and brought back a load of 900lbs I went in 4th gear and 3rd gear on the really steep grades and I checked it and had 21mpg then... That was back this last summer... I haven't halled a heavier or heavy in general load since...
I also have a 321 rearend with a 5 speed which alone will get a little better fuel milleage than low geared auto's... 2wheel drive, regular cab...
Oh I just got 120 miles on the odometer where I ussually get 100 miles at best after the Holley TB install :)) I'm liking it more and more everytime I hop into drive... Really keeps a smile on your face with this little V6 ;))
Any thoughts on the improvements I should get from the head shave, prt and polish, 1.7 roller rockers, and intake porting for the bigger TB and to match the heads:))
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bull
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/18/2004
16:11:25
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Sorry dont believe your getting that MPH...
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JimRoss
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
17:54:41
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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He is running a 5sp manual, so its possible for that kind of milage.
My wife tested a 03 neon with Auto and got 25mpg. She opted for the 03 Neon with a 5sp manual( for better gas milage) and we are currently getting 41mpg. Thats a big jump considering the only difference was the tranny.
We both use Mobile 1 5-30
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Greg
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/18/2004
18:08:44
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Bull, where did I say anything about MPH??? I was talking about MPG "MILES PER GALLON"... Beleive what you want to... I really don't care... BUT, I am talking the truth... Just use all the stuff that I do on yours and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about... The syn oil will make some of the bigger defferences along with the engine being able to breath better with the Tornado and cold air intake "not kind that uses the stock plastic tubing along with cold air intake tube"... I do also know one thing about the Dodges, not real sure if it makes that much difference on other makes, but for performance and cleaner fuel burn try new "rotor, distributor cap, plugs, and wires"...
Also like I stated, I check my fuel milleage to the .000 everytime I fill up with gas, top off the tank everytime, and use the same pump everytime at the same station everytime... The last time I checked it this week it was 18mpg, because I go out 30minutes early every morning crank it up and let it warm up good before I ever think about trying to drive it... The last time I checked it burns around 1/2 gallon from idling an hour... So thats what 5 times a week = 2.5 gallons just from idling to warm up and thaw out... It takes 30minutes to warm up because of the syn I use, plus it takes a while to melt off the windows and get nice and toasty :)) The last time I drove it while it was cold, I about froze todeath and got a cold from it, so I like to spend a little extra for gas and get it nice and warm before I go to drive it...
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GB2001
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
18:29:07
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Message:
I get 28 mpg with my V6
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Darryl
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
18:31:12
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Greg, I have all the same motor mods as you including choice of oil. Plus it's lowered and I have a Snuglid Toneau cover('99 CC 2WD V6 Auto 3.55's).
I live in So Cal and I often make the trip to Vegas which is 320 miles each way. I live one block from the freeway on ramp, and from there to the Vegas chevron that I use, I drive 67.5 mph (99.9% highway miles for this trip).
The best mileage I have ever gotten, ever (over 20 round trips over 3 years) was 22.7mpg.
Thats a 22 gallon tank, full at starting point(.3 of a mile) and getting my butt smoked, even by semi's!
319 miles on odometer(it's calibrated correctly) 14.067 gallons to fill up = 22.7 mpg
I have no idea how in any world that has gravity and an atmosphere you are getting 30mpg
Darryl
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2003DakQC
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/18/2004
18:38:28
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Message:
Damn. Now I feel bad. I'm only getting 14.1 MPG
3.9V6 Quad Cab w/Auto. Maybe I should put a real heavy return spring on the throttle.
Anyway thanks for all the input on this issue. I think I'll pickup a V8TB install that stock. Then I can take my time modifying my V6TB.
BTW I was interested in both An MPG improvement with Performance improvement being the more important of the two
Thanks
- Mike
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tazzy
GenIII
1/18/2004
18:44:12
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Best I ever got was 18MPG....
30MPG,,DAMN....
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Jared
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
18:58:46
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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The only trip I ever took that I was not towing a Camper I got 22.9 with my 3.9. That was before I did any mods to it. At that point it was bone stock with abo 1500 mi on it. Towing i got abo 16 mpg.
2003 sxt club cab, airaid intake, gibson split rear exh, jba headers.
next... F&B tb
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jeremy
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/18/2004
19:22:14
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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That's hard to beleive Greg. Especially considering you've gone against some of the more knowledgable peoples advice. I've never seen anyone with a good grasp on automobiles say anything good about the tornado or a TB spacer. I'm far from an expert, and like most people I put a spacer on my truck because i didn't know better. No difference in milage what so ever. It did feel like it go up a little quicker, but I'd chalk that up to the placebo effect. The TB you put on is way too big. Larry has as much or more knowledge about these trucks than anyone. Listen to him. Of course your happy with the improvement, but you'd be even more happy with the correct size. One more thing by using such a thin oil, you may be giving away engine life to get more milage, but that's up to you. Congrats on the 30mpg though.
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Wadak
Dodge Dakota
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1/18/2004
19:25:14
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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I have a clubcab 3.9 v6 with cold air intake. 70 series flowmaster, MSD system, at the time using the Bosch Platinum +4's. During the summer, the best I was able to get was equal to the EPA ratings for this combination 16mpg town on the freeway at 65 to 70 21 mpg. Now that it winter time 14 mpg around town and 18 to 19 freeway.
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J and J Auto
GenII
1/18/2004
20:02:53
| RE: Stock V8 TB -VS- Modified V6 TB
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Greg,
I would lean towards the crower 1.7 rollers as a
mater of fact I just put in another set on a V6
just today, yes this retired old man still works
on Sunday.
The bigger TB and any way you can improve the
intake side will help mileage, just read the V6
article on Hughes Engines site they also say the
same thing.
http://www.hughesengines.com/general/tech_articles/v6_magnum_engines.asp
Jeremy
The 52mm he used reacted the same as a V8 swap
because the bores on the manifold remained at 48mm
you could put a 100mm TB on top but there is still the
restriction of the 48mm bore that will only flow between
600 to 700 cfm through the bores. The only way to flow
more is force it in or open the bores, now if he opens
them to 50 or 52mm he better have the rest of the motor
ready to handle it, cam, ported and matched and be
sure the exh will not restrict the extra flow.
The gas mileage, One day 85 degree weather coming
back from a friends weeding in Milwaukee my 1995
Dodge Dakota 3.9 4X4 pulled 25.8 but has never
done it again, my stroker now in the winter is
pulling 19 and in the summer between 22 to 24.
that was in 1996 and the truck had like 15,000 miles
on it, virtually a new truck.
You want gas mileage stick your intake tube on the
radiator and let it suck hot air and watch what
happens to your mileage it will jump.
There are a lot of guys with the old Chrysler
3.0 Mitsubishi or how ever you spell it going to
hot air and water injection and pulling over 40
mpg out of them. Of course that would not be what
a guy looking for better performance would want to
do.
Larry
J&J Auto
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