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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/15/2003
14:21:44
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 Subject: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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I have a 92 dodge dakota and the problem has been progressive. From once in a rare while to almost everytime I start the truck. Idle doesn't hold, giving gas will keep it running, but delayed revs. When I hold the gas it backfires and rattles, the engine bogs, and then dies. Recently this has happened four times while I was driving (twice on the freeway) I was lucky to be able to pull over. Once I stop, it dies. Turn the key it starts right up and is good to go??? When driving on the backfiring start, can't go over 15 mph (did this on accident, sometimes can't tell until trying to drive).
Just getting the truck started has become a trial, it can take from 1 turn to 20 to get it running properly. Tends to be worse when it's cold. As a result of the backfiring and general running condition in this state, I blew out the muffler (KaBoom), after replacing both the muffler and the CAT (which was cracked), no change. Changed the cap and rotor both were fried... Ran cleaner through the fuel lines, no change. Been told "it's probably the computer".
The timing was checked and it speeds up irradically when this happens, the mechanic said "I think it's possessed", he thought it was a computer problem ($250). Then he said good luck.
I haven't done too many repairs because from what I've read this is quite common on the V6 models and those who have posted their troubles replaced almost everything in the engine (as these problems could understandably be the result of many different things). I'm trying to take the cheaper route and see if we all can't narrow this problem down to a few common things.
Any advice or experience will really help!!!!
Eva
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well
Dodge Dakota
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12/15/2003
14:49:52
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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The mechanic sounds incompetent. Did he/she check the IAT, TPS, MAP or CTS? Did they do a compression check? Did they replace the plugs or wires?
There's several different individual or combined problems that will produce the problem you are having and it's not possible for anyone to diagnose it over the WWW, though I know of a few experts who think they can.
Find a better mechanic who is familiar with Dodge trucks.
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/15/2003
14:55:17
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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I told him to do a full tune and he said everything was fine but the cap and rotor, I don't know what else he checked, but I do know that he did not have the ability to test the computer or related diagnostics... I regret not doing a tune up myself (time crunched right now), but I guess that would be the best way to go...
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Mark green 92
Dodge Dakota
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12/15/2003
15:26:32
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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In addition to the above mentioned checks, have you checked for proper fuel system pressure and check to see if your distributor drive gear is going out. Grab the rotor and see if it will rotate more than 1/8" back and fourth, if so it could be a bad intermediate shaft and/or bushing, replace both. This is a problem unique to the 92's and there was a tsb on it.
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/15/2003
16:47:31
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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The coil was also checked... it's fine...I don't think he actually pulled the distributer out though. I have checked the rotor and it is ok...
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92Dakota
Dodge Dakota
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12/15/2003
17:54:43
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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I have a 92 Dakota V6 and it does the same thing. I was told it is the TPS sensor.
I haven't had a chance to try it out yet.
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/15/2003
17:59:11
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Found an old forum that said distributer pick up fixed the problem for a few peole... I went to antagonize the dealership on this info, who surprise, surprise hasn't heard of anything like this EVER happening before... they offered to do a 30 min diagnostic FREE and then if they can't find something they said they'd call me... I'm gonna try the distributer pickup if they come up empty, and I'll let you all know...
Eva
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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12/15/2003
19:36:27
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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good choice,this will also make the fuel pump at arrattic becauce it needs this signal to fire the pump and the computer won,t know what the timing should be,causing it to back-fire.
like the guys said it could be a number of things.
theres also a positive feed wire that goes to the computer they have problems with it corrodes
good luck
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2003
17:16:33
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Ok, dealership says that it's the gear on the distributer... but the last guy said the distributer was fine?? Either way if I replace it I'm doing it myself... does this also seem a fix for the back firing problems?
Also, can I get a distributer a place other than the dealer? They say cost is $244
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2003
17:17:48
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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what's a tsb?
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2003
17:30:21
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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theres no gear on the dist
try one of the parts stores-napa,carquest etc.
for the dist if it needs one.
on the throttle body-tps stands for throttle position sensor,its on the driver side,black in color,has three wire plug-in.
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2003
17:40:31
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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TSB = technical service bulletin
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/16/2003
17:51:46
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Ok, bushing... I meant bushing, not gear, sorry. Do I have to replace the distributer for that? I'm assuming so...
Thanks so much everyone for all your help... I'll let you know what happens after fixing what I hope is the only step 1.
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2003
12:36:26
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Does it make sense that the distributer is the problem when, the stalling is intermittent? If it was the distributer, wouldn't I have the problem all the time? I guess I'm not convinced... any ideas?
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2003
12:47:45
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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if the bushings are bad you,ll have side to side movement in the shaft[very noticiable movement]
have you tryed the pick-up in the dist?its not that costly.
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2003
14:25:26
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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No, I haven't, this couldn't be worse timing... I'm moving, christmas and broke...I should be able to do the pick up this weekend...but if the bushings are bad, would it be better to just replace the distributer? and if that's the case wouldn't I be getting a new pick up too?
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Mark green 92
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2003
16:39:08
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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I guess I need to clarify things. The intermediate shaft bushing is a problem with the 92’s. It first shows up as a stumble or miss while driving somewhere around 2000 to 2500 rpms. A sign that things are going bad are that your distributor’s rotor will come apart and the current contacts loosen up where they are riveted to the plastic. You can physically turn the rotor while attached to the distributor shaft back and fourth a considerable amount. If not corrected, the camshaft drive gear will begin to machine the teeth off the intermediate shaft drive gear and it will eventually stop running .The base of V6/V8 distributors looks like a flat blade screwdriver and fits into a slot on top of your intermediate shaft and gear, I made an assumption that everyone knew this and didn’t proof my first post thoroughly, I apologize. Typically distributors do not need replacement unless the sheet metal reluctor has come loose from the plastic base plate that it is bonded to. This controls your fuel injection and if it gets a bad signal fuel supply can be affected. Early on, the black plastic pickup assembly (below the rotor, above the reluctor) was replaced to cure drivability problems but I never heard why. You say the problem is intermittent, is it more noticeable in rain or damp conditions? Another manufacturing shortcut that plagues these trucks is the red and white PCM power supply wire is spliced about a foot down from the under hood fuse/relay box and is prone to corrosion. It seems that three wires are spot weld-fused and wrapped in that cheap cloth tape and moisture will eventually corrode this connection. The fix is to open up the wiring harness, cut out the splice, solder all the wires together and seal them with heat-shrink tubing or at least a quality vinyl electrical tape. The wire problem will get to a point that the truck will crank but not fire and the lights and radio will still work, this does not trigger any fault codes. Someone with electrical experience should be able to probe the disconnected PCM connector and positive battery cable and check for high resistance with an ohm meter. Lastly, do you have, or can you obtain fuel pressure readings when the truck is acting up. If the pressure is low you want to confirm that the fuel pump is running and not being turned off by the PCM. It is uncommon to have a fuel pressure regulator fail but not impossible. If it stuck open, fuel would bypass the rail and return to the tank and injector open time would increase to try and compensate. The next time it acts up, turn the key on to where the fuel pump primes the system (all the dash warning lights come on) wait 3-5 seconds, turn the truck off and do it again. If with 2 or three of these cycles allow the truck to start and run, it could be a failing fuel pump, a sticking regulator or some other fuel delivery problem, hopefully a fuel pressure gauge connected to the fuel rail will shed some light on this. The problem is that it could be any one of a lot of problems, but these are not in a book and most of these will not set the check engine light.
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/17/2003
18:51:28
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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I know that it could be a list of things and I know that I have not done a terribly decent job at narrowing the list. However after two machanic checks, one says it's the computer and the other says the bushing in the distributer and that the whole thing needs to be replaced...
I guess I'm having trouble with where to start, the distributer pickup seems to be a good place, however I'm clearly not familiar with the innerworkings of the distributer... my automotive experience is with take out and put in, not diagnosis.
It is more noticeable in the cold as far as starting, humidity seems to have the backfiring and then dying act up more... the cap and rotor were fried (I do mean fried). It seems that if I gun it, ie freeway stalls, it's more likely to want to die (note that it doesn't die while driving, the engine backfires with gas, bogs and then when I stop the RPMs rise and then it dies), neutral however seemed to calm the backfiring problem today although it still died once I stopped.
Is the bushing part of the distributer or something I can replace without replacing the distributer (I know what it does, just not how it is connected). Furthermore, do you think that if the problem has become almost daily, that there is a good chance that the distributer has been injured to the point where it needs replacing regardless if that was the initial problem or not?
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Mark green 92
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2003
00:31:05
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Ok, now its time to start narrowing the list. the nice thing about the distributor is that it does'nt have internal parts like the older cars. Open up the distributor cap, remove the rotor( check for more than 1/8" movement back and fourth), and note the direction it is pointing for when you replace it. Lift up the black plastic pickup plate and look into the distributor. Check to see if the sheetmetal semicircle (pulse ring, reluctor, interruptor or whatever you want to call it)is firmly bonded to its plastic base, they are melted into place when manufactured. This part is not serviced by itself and you have to purchase a replacement distributor if you are unable to repair it. There are no other moving parts in here and distributor housing bushing is usually good for over 100K. Does the shaft feel like a loose bushing, it can be checked with a dial indicator if you are concerned. If there are no problems here you could button it up with a new pickup plate and test your theory and rule out the exterior parts. Probably if you took your truck to several different shops, you would get several different answers, because to solve this problem someone is going to need to check everything that everyone has suggested systematically and it takes time. What if the upper half didn't solve the problem and you know there is excessive movement from the rotor. This problem occurred somewhere after 50k and usually would become a failure after 100k miles. While they were under warranty local vehicles got a new bushing, intermediate shaft and timing gear set. This bushing repair is not for the faint of heart and you need a service manual for proper setup and distributor indexing after the fact. You will need SPX/Miller tool # C-3052 and C-3053 bushing puller and driver burnisher. This bushing is in the block, above the oilpump adjacent to the camshaft drive gear and accessed with these tools thru the distributor block opening. When completing this task it is a good idea to flush the area and the block with clean oil to remove any bronze shavings generated by the removal/burnishing process. However, when was the last time the throttle body and idle air control valve were cleaned? There is TSB 18-16-94, Erratic idle, Stalls on decel, or Hot Restart. It affects 92-94 Dakotas with 3.9,5.2, and 5.9L engines. The repair is an updated Idle air control motor p/n 53030657. Disconnect the battery before replacing it so that after you are done the PCM can relearn and set the IAC motor. Also check the wiring harness for corrosion on splice # 115 , power supply for the PCM, fuel pump, and ignition coil. All wires are red and white, three come from the fuse box and one goes to the PCM. You have to unbolt the fuse/relay box and cut open the harness tape CAREFULLY for about a foot, trace the red and white wires. Follow my earlier suggestion to complete this repair. Happy hunting...
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2003
13:57:42
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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I cleaned the throttle body, maybe a month and a half ago... that was the first thing I thought of.. the air control valve I'm not familiar with, unfortunately I'm better with pictures or by sight, but if it's in the throttle body, it was cleaned. I just hit 100k today...I don't know what a dial indidcator is to check the bushing... Is there an inner and outer bushing here, by that I mean one attached (or inside supporting the shaft) to the distributer and one not?
I really appreciate your patience with me and very grateful for your time and advice. I really wish I was more hands on familiar with the distributer, but I guess after this I will be.
I should be able to get through the distributer checks this weekend and give a report on Monday. Any idea what the cost of an intermediate shaft and bushing are? Just curious...
Eva
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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12/18/2003
16:15:12
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Ok, I'm impatient, went home at lunch and took the distributer apart. There is play in the shaft... should I not have been able to move it at all? I could move back and forth but only a little... I don't know what that means. The pulse ring\relucter thing is in tact, and seems fine based on your explaination. There really isn't much in there, I was surprised. The pick-up has a fine dust (assuming carbon) all over it, do you think that could be a reason for that not to be working properly?
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