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22:26:43 - 11/14/2024
V6 Dakotas
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vern
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/15/2004
19:27:43
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 Subject: RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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i,m not sure i follow you.but i,ll try.
is this making this noise when you first engage the starter?if yes,then it sounds like the starter drive gear is,nt meshing in to the ring gear on the torque convertor[auto] or flywheel
[standard]
either way it,s the starter.
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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1/15/2004
19:44:01
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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It happens after it's been cranking for about 6-10 seconds, out of no where... side note , when this whole thing first started I was afraid that after all the starting and restarting and starting and turning off on a bad start would eventually burn out my starter. But honestly after everything I've done, I really didn't have much of a choice...
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Dianes 88 Dak
GenI
1/16/2004
02:54:56
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Thanks for coming to help LARRY. Vern and Mark have been great, right EVA.
Eva, this is really weird...
My starter acted up a few times last week also. It was in the morning and really cold out, so I kinda wrote it off to the cold and forgot about it. Today it did it one time and it wasn't cold out. Mine does it when you first crank it tho and it sounds like when starter bolts get a bit loose causing it to hang for a few seconds. Gonna check it this weekend along with the other stuff.
Put new plug wires on today, now a complete tune up has been completed. Didn't make any differance running/ideling wise. Couldn't check spark at coil, no one home to help. I did take it off and look at it. Looks good, no cracks/corrosion and looks very new. Old wires and plugs didn't look that bad either, by the way.
Hey VERN, if coil is just bad and getting to hot, I could feel it after it was running awhile, couldn't I?
Also, I redone the wiring where the splices that get corroaded are(within a foot of relay, ones). Recheck computer connections again too and several other connection, etc. Checked for any loose vacuum lines, wiggled stuff while it was ideling. Sometimes it dies right when you wiggle something and you think aha, but you try it again and nothing happens no matter how much you move them.
I talked to a local guy at a shop here and he seemed to think, map sensor, computer or even crank sensor. He also told me to try to reset the computer when I finished with the plug wires by starting it without setting the trottle and then let it run about 8 minutes (yea, right). Anyway, I tried it, it would start just fine but wouldn't hold an idel and would die anywhere from 10 to 20 seconds to 45 sec. After 5th time I set the trottle and it still would die within a minute. I had to rev it a bit till it warmed up some, then for the heck of it I let it idel for about 10 minutes before I test drove it. It ideled pretty good for most of that time. Seems to be backfiring more when you rev it just as it starts coming back down off rev.
When I drove it, no change. I turned in the driveway and it died before I came to a stop. Back to quare one.
I have one more question for tonight.
Since I haven't finished the exhaust completly yet, (cat and tail pipe not back on) should I be more concerned about the O2? What's the easiest way to check it? Manual says something about needing a special tool to remove it and cleaning the threads with a tap before putting it back in.
Sorry its so long again.
Thanks so much everyone.
Diane's 88 Dakota [
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
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1/16/2004
12:59:10
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Diane, You do need a special tool, like a spark plug socket (in this case a sensor socket), you could probably buy one rather inexpensively... As far as testing I have no idea, but I do know that it's about 65-75 for a new one... my philosophy is becoming "if it's cheap and could be a contributer... REPLACE IT!!" and maybe you'll find a lead...lol
Eva
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xmr
GenIII
1/16/2004
16:57:12
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Don't waste your money on a special tool. A 7/8 ths open end wrench works fine. Auto zone sells a bosch sensor for about $60 and they work well. they even come with anti-seize compound on the threads.
Home brew cold air with K&N,Dynomax, Superchip Tuner, 1.7 RR,, F&B tb. NAPA cap and rotor, 3923 plugs
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J and J Auto
GenII
1/16/2004
18:12:43
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Just use a box wrench and slide it down over the
wires the open end may slip the o2's get very
tight
And yes replace it $60 autozone made by bosch and
a good part, it will effect your air fuel ratio
There are 2 ways to check the o2
1 scanner
2 voltmeter you need to find the right wire and
tap it and ground the other side.
The o2 will read from .1 to 1 volt a digatal volt
meter is needed and once the truck reaches op temp
the sensor will do what they call a flip flop
changing back and forth from high to low volts
that is working right if it remains at a stedy
volts after closed loop is obtained its bad
easier to just replace the thing
Diane
It sure sounds to me like a bad sensor
with no exh yes after you rev the motor on the way
back down it will pop and sound like a backfire
that is normal with no exh on the motor
Hope that helps
Larry
J&J Auto
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vern
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/16/2004
18:23:21
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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diana and eva,it sounds like you both have checked or changed most things.
most of the sensors will trip/set codes if there
that far out of wak,or check engine light will come on.
sounds like it may be a lean fuel problem,but thats just a guess.pcm could also cause this but
this just a guess also.
you could just keep throwing money at it in guesses and maybe,s and still not fix it.
so i,m not going to try and baffel you with bull$h!t and keep you looking at this and that.
i guess i can,t help you over the net.
so good luck in your quest.
vern
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/16/2004
18:32:53
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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UUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
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Dianes 88 Dak
GenI
1/16/2004
18:52:56
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Thanks guys and Eva.
Yea, the manual said I needed a special tool for the engine temp sensor also, but I used a wrench on it too. I guess I'll make a trip to the Zone tomorrow and just buy the O2, can't hurt to replace it either way, it's due maintanance wise anyway, 105 thou and trucks at 111.
Book also says about alternator bushes at 75 thou. I have no idea if it was ever serviced. Larry you had told me when I first got the truck about running bad if not getting proper volts, battery was fine. Could it still be altenator not putting out quite enough juice? Or be a contributor to all the problems/systoms? I never really figured alt was a problem, charging seems really good, starts easy on very cold morns and after several restarts without a hint of battery getting low.
Eva, did you get your TB gasket on and any changes?
Diane's 88 Dakota [
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Dianes 88 Dak
GenI
1/16/2004
19:04:22
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Also, I forgot to say that the backfiring had just gotten worse than the norm (with tail pipe off) just since begining of this week. I guess probably just because it's running worse. Another thing I noticed today is you smell gas pretty strong coming from TB now too. I imagine thats got something to do with the lean cond. and comp tring to compensate. Is this a correct assumption?
Thanks again to all.
Diane's 88 Dakota [
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Dianes 88 Dak
GenI
1/16/2004
19:17:30
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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VERN, We need your ideas and expertise too.
Believe me or not...
It sure helps a person keep the quest going and not get so down hearted. I don't have the money to take my truck to a high price shop and then not know what they did or if they know what they are doing.
I'd rather have it this way, the latter being my main reason for no shop, probably wouldn't take it if I had several hundred extra lying around, (unless of course some of you guys were where I was taking it, with all your Dak knowledge). I would probably use it to buy me some tools, etc. to help in the diagnostics. I love a challenge!LOL
Diane's 88 Dakota [
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J and J Auto
GenII
1/16/2004
19:31:32
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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I thought you replaced the o2 the recommended
replacement is 60,000.
I remember us talking about that and some wires
you found that were not connected thinking it was
the o2 but was not
Yes it is hard to fix something over the net all
anyone can do is offer suggestions
I am not trying to baffle you with bull$h!t I was
asked how you can check an o2 and that is how you
can but its a pain without a scanner.
If you lived close I could hook you to my new
AutoXray scanner and check things out but my cable
is just not long enough to reach LOL
You can check the voltage output with a volt meter
just go right on the batt and start the truck
target volts are 14.5 on the daks while at high
idle you should have that.
You definitely have some probe and have checked
all the obvious things it could be.
The o2 will adversely effect how much fuel the
2 injectors in the TB will through out now saying
you smell gas is leaning more toward a bad o2
incoming air temp sensor or engine temp sensor
if reading cold will dump more fuel.
Wiggling wires and than running right for a while
and than not.
What it sounds like to me is one of those headaches
that is going to take time and be very difficult
to find.
I have had a few trucks like that and took 2 weeks
on 1 to find the prob and ended up being something
so simple everyone in the shop just overlooked it.
Replace the o2 and see what happens after that.
There is also a posibility of PCM failure but that
is not that common and happens to very few
Exh back presure or lack of can also adversly
effect the way the truck runs, a leaky or stuck
open EGR is another one to look at and will cause
bad idle or no idle
Larry
J&J Auto
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Dianes 88 Dak
GenI
1/16/2004
21:25:23
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Your right...Mopar manual says 52.5 first time(60), 105 is second change, sorry I should have clarified.
Yea, back when I first got the truck and was waiting on the manual, I had found an O2 on exhaust man., driver side, that wasn't hooked up, one at y pipe is hooked up & is all the 88's suppose to have. Someone changed manifolds at some point in time, I wonder why. Eventually I'll try to find numbers or something to tell what they are from.
I read the post you did on your new scanner. That was one of the things I was refering to buying if I had the extra cash right now.
Yea, get a long, long wire, LOL.
I replaced the TPS and Engine C S after I gave you the codes I was getting and it made some difference for a while, at least my temp guage started working again & Changed the thermastat when winterizing. Cleaned crank inlet air filter, put in new air filter and PVC checked out good. Ran ok for about 100 miles.
Rotor was trash so put on the new rotor & cap and EGR & Back Pressure Transducer, right before Christmas. Ran & idelled pretty good for about 125 miles (still wasn't quite right, though) then slowly started back sliding to the point it is now. Hall Effect P. U. last Fri., which seemed to make it a bit worse idel wise, but could be a coincidence.
Diane's 88 Dakota [
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Mark green 92
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/16/2004
21:36:26
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Message:
Thanks Vern and Larry with added suggestions. I try not to baffle anyone with b.s. also. But I have had my Dakota do strange things to me, and I try to share things that are not found in the manual. When common problems show up probably someone else has had a similar thing happen too, and by asking good questions you can get a lot of good answers. Eva, where do you stand now and can you list everything you have replaced up to this point? Diane, did you say that the exhaust system is removed from the truck, I assume that it is missing the catalytic converter? These engines need a little back pressure to operate efficiently and may be contributing to the problem, but not the cause. Keep in mind that 2 injectors are feeding 6 cylinders and the fuel program was based around an exhaust system. Unfortunately it could be anything, and I hope that you both will find the problems soon.
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Dianes 88 Dak
GenI
1/16/2004
22:04:02
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Your right...Mopar manual says 52.5 first time(60), 105 is second change, sorry I should have clarified.
Yea, back when I first got the truck and was waiting on the manual, I had found an O2 on exhaust man., driver side, that wasn't hooked up, one at y pipe is hooked up & is all the 88's suppose to have. Someone changed manifolds at some point in time, I wonder why. Eventually I'll try to find numbers or something to tell what they are from.
I read the post you did on your new scanner. That was one of the things I was refering to buying if I had the extra cash right now.
Yea, get a long, long wire, LOL.
I replaced the TPS and Engine C S after I gave you the codes I was getting and it made some difference for a while, at least my temp guage started working again & Changed the thermastat when winterizing. Cleaned crank inlet air filter, put in new air filter and PVC checked out good. Ran ok for about 100 miles.
Rotor was trash so put on the new rotor & cap and EGR & Back Pressure Transducer, right before Christmas. Ran & idelled pretty good for about 125 miles (still wasn't quite right, though) then slowly started back sliding to the point it is now. Hall Effect P. U. last Fri., which seemed to make it a bit worse idel wise, but could be a coincidence.
Diane's 88 Dakota [
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Dianes 88 Dak
GenI
1/16/2004
22:21:50
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Message:
MARK,
Removed the cat to try to clean it out 2nd week of Dec. right after I got the truck. Cat was just about completely clogged. Bought a Flowmaster DeltaFlow 40 Series, and we just bolted it on some extra pipe we had so I could at least drive it before getting the new cat. No emissions here in the country to worry about and a lot of loud trucks so no problem there. Anyway, have to get some custom tail pipes made and I want to go duel after the muff, when my cash flow gets better and I get back to working steady (winter sucks for Dump trucks and Construction work). Anyway, has a muffler just no cat or tail, but, this problem is the same as the one I had driving it home from OH when I first got it, just more persistent now.
Thanks Mark!
Diane's 88 Dakota [
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Dianes 88 Dak
GenI
1/16/2004
22:25:31
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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DOH!!! Why did that post twice??? I only put my passwork in once and hit it once.
Diane's 88 Dakota [
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vern
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/17/2004
08:44:06
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Message:
first i want to say i,m sorry to mark and larry
i was,nt trying to imply that they or onyone here
was bull$h!tting anyone.
so let me say it again,i,m sorry it sounded that way.
Diane that exsh manifold is off a van or full size
with the O2 don,t worry about that,you do,nt need it.
i,m just going to throw this out there,yrs back gm
[chevy] had a big problem with their cams in the small blocks,the lobes on the cams would wear fast
on just select cyl. causing a back fire in the exsh or intake.[i don,t think this is your problem
but you could remove the valve covers to see if your rocker arms are all moving up/down evenly]
Diane,this is just a thought also,sometime back i had a 318 that skipped bad,sometime it would be 2cyl,sometimes 3cyl,it was the intake gasket,cracked on the bottom side.
try this take a can of WD40 with the truck running
,spray some over/down the throttle body throat,
if the motor idles up then you have a vaccuum leak some where,if it chokes up then not.
this is old school for carb motors,should work on
these,i think
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Dianes 88 Dak
GenI
1/17/2004
15:41:56
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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Message:
Thanks for coming back to us VERN, your so very appriciated!!!
Done the vacuum check and found no problems there. It worked to a point with the WD, didn't idle up at all, also tried starting fluid. Didn't suck anything in at the intake or any other seams, either. Although the other day when I was messing with it, I noticed oil at front of intake seam and cleaned it off. There was some oil there again. But, didn't suck any WD in at that point, so I'm not sure if it ran from elsewhere or what, even if the gasket needs replacing, don't think it's of major concern at this point. Also, TB didn't really choke up, but SMEC is compensating with extra fuel so would probably take more WD to make a big differance, I'm thinking or just the diff between carb & TB. Checked the EGR again and have good vacuum there and at intake breather hole.
I did however, after everything else, disconect the O2 and took it for a drive. Made a big differance, ran better on take off and didn't die when I came to a stop, also the idle was much better. I'm hoping this is the cure, but after all the replacements I've already done I'm not to sure it will be the whole problem. I'll have to give it a 100 miles or so to see.
Heading to Auto Zone for the O2, wish me luck, I'm taking the truck.
Is there a way to test the map sensor? Only thing I did was pulled the vacuum hose off it and noticed a slight clicking type noise. Can't find anything in manual on testing it.
I'LL BE BACK!! LOL
Diane's 88 Dakota [
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Eva
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
1/20/2004
17:27:40
| RE: 92 V6 stall and back fire
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I changed the gasket but have not done the checks yet... no hasn't chaged anything... I'm out of money so things are on hold right now... I'll update you when I get to a mechanic for another diagnostic... I don't know where to go from here... I'm having some personal health issues right now which are slowing me down as well...
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