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Chris Paul
Dodge Dakota
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10/04/2002
17:57:16
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 Subject: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Do NOT waste your $50 for the tensioner. Buy the double roller chain set for $35. It is stout, will never stretch, will out last and outperform factory set, costs less, fits tighter, and does not require the oil slinger or drive plate to be removed. Pick up a new oil filter and get the timing chain seal and gasket set. Leave the end tabs on the oil pan gasket alone. You don't need to cut them off or loosen the oil pan at all for this job. Remember to buy a new oil filter because gasket particles and metal filings will contaminate your oil.
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Larry B
Dodge Dakota
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10/05/2002
00:02:17
|  RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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That's what i'll do. I've got a 95 and that timing chain rattle has been bugging me for years. Truck has less than 80K on it and still runs like new. (It's been babied, engine is cleaner than the interior) I want to do the air intakes and exhaust too. From what I've been reading I can attach headers to my stock, stainless steel exhaust and keep just the one pipe. Upgrade the muffler and lose the cat converter. Port and polish the intake manifold and upgrade the air filter. (K & N or something like it. Think that'll work?
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Chris Paul
Dodge Dakota
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10/05/2002
01:20:37
|  RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Best upgrades are the ones that make it breath better. I had a good experience with after market pipes. Sounded nice and not too loud. Added some balls too. With the K&N filter and new exhaust my mileage improved from 17 to 19 mpg.
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rt5.9stroker
Dodge Dakota
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10/05/2002
02:39:12
|  RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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where would you buy a double roller timing chain for a 98 dodge dakota 3.9 liter v-6. what web site or where can i order it. ?? florida ,
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swingman
Dodge Dakota
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10/05/2002
09:13:21
|  RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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rt5.9stroker...
www.krcperformance.com
I envy you, you're in Florida close to Marty!
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rt5.9stoker
Dodge Dakota
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10/06/2002
03:31:01
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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thanks bye the way who? is marty
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swingman
Dodge Dakota
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10/06/2002
10:50:34
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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He's the guy that owns Krc, been building/tuning Dakota's for years and is very knowledgeable(sp?)
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Bernd
*GenIII*
10/07/2002
10:53:30
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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You can use the tensioner with a DBL-Roller as well. If you rebuild the engine and have all the machining done, the crank and cam alignment moves so there may be slack in the timing chain (doesn't matter who makes the chain). Even on a brand new engine (rebuilt or new from the dealer)...there's slack in the timing chain.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Chris Paul
Dodge Dakota
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10/07/2002
14:02:02
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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The point is you will NOT need the tensioner because a double roller will not stretch and there is no slack. The reason the tensioner is marketed is because the OEM has a bit of slack and wears out. The stout double roller design will not wear and has no slack.
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bernd
*GenIII*
10/07/2002
14:19:42
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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The chains will stretch eventually. Even on a freech rebuild (or replacement). I've got a 30K mile (aftermarket) timing chain in the shop which did stretch...even the Cloyes, Edelbrock, or Mopar chains will stretch eventually.
Is a tensioner required right off the bat...probably not...just insurance.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Chris Paul
Dodge Dakota
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10/07/2002
15:13:18
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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OK. ONE MORE TIME FOR THE THINKING IMPAIRED. The tensioner is required when you KEEP the cheep OEM chain and gear set because it wears and gets slackened. Why use it for an aftermarket set that is not prone to the problems of the OEM set. Hey, its your money. Spend the $65 dollars at NAPA for the replacement OEM set and another $50 more for the Tensioner only available at Dodge, or just buy a quality (and performance upgrade) timing chain and gear set. I'm through with this. This advice comes to you through first hand knowledge & experience. And for the sake of argument: The double roller will not stretch. Take your old one out and compare it to the double set's chain and you will see. Don't take my word for it, ask a local mechanic. Then you will get a lesson on why Double roller design sets exist. It is for the same reason the Tensioner exists. Have Fun!!
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Bernd
*GenIII*
10/07/2002
18:33:09
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Dbl-Rollers exist for several reasons:
(1) Less friction (on the "True" rollers only) - there's differences between the Dbl-Row and Dbl-Row/True Roller chains
(2) Metal WILL fatigue eventually...but the higher quality dbl-row chains will hold up longer.
(3) The Tensioners are used to to the crank/cam distance variances on the engines.
Dbl-Row/True Roller chains don't stretch?!? You're sadly mistaken.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Chris Paul
Dodge Dakota
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10/08/2002
10:01:31
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Easy there. Didn't mean to upset you. You sell parts, don't you? I see your motivation. I am trying to give honest advice. I sincerely apologize for sending any grief your way. The question remains why use both? Why machine out a motor to fit an optional part used and made to fix an oem part's limitations. If the part's problem is fixed with a new better upgrade, why get the option that fixes the old cheep OEM part's limitation too? In addition, there is no "slack" in a brand new engine. It's called tolerance. Any play in addition to specified endplay is slack. I don't care how many car parts you sell. It is a case of over engineering and wastes money and no performance gains are seen with a tensioner unless the worn out original cheep timing chain is kept and reinstalled, But that would just be silly. It is your business and the business of your customers if you all want to use both a tensioner and a double roller timing chain set. But it is certainly overkill and I suspect that (as you mentioned on previous postings) grinding the block could be necessary for it all to fit in the case. Quite a bit of trouble, no?
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Chris Paul
Dodge Dakota
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10/08/2002
10:09:08
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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I can never get enough of a good Discussion and I want to give the benefit of a 'doubt' to all the readers of this forum. By all means round up all the parts and seals and gaskets and a tenioner to boot. Do the job and appreciate the perfect fit of your new timing chain set (I got mine from Six Pack Performance, ABQ,NM. Made by Engine and Performance Warehouse). Take it all apart again and then use the tensioner. Decide for yourself if it was worth it. It wasn't for me. That's all I meant to say. Others's experiences and opinions are naturally gonna differ and that's cool. Ya'll have fun!!
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Bernd
*GenIII*
10/08/2002
19:32:10
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Yes, we sell parts but also build engines. Do we install a tensioner on every engine? No. Is grinding the block required to fit one? No. It all fits under the factory timing cover. (Don't know where you got that from.)
The "slack" term is used to make things easy on the other readers. I've seen factory (and aftermarket) timing chains (on the 3.9/5.2/5.9L) range from "nice and tight" to "loose as hell". Variances on the cam/crank distance in these engines is why the tensioner is used. Again...does every engine need one? No.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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LarryB
Dodge Dakota
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10/10/2002
01:54:50
|  RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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One thing you need to do is quit refering to OEM chains from a dealer as cheap. They may be garbage, but they are not cheap. My local crook/dealer quoted $125-$150 for a chain, gear, and tensioner setup. This is the same chain I'm having trouble with. The local speed shop wants $50 for a high performance roller type w/gears, no tensioner. much better bargain. If it ain't under warranty, screw the dealer.
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Chris Paul
Dodge Dakota
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10/10/2002
09:45:13
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Wow! That's more than NAPA. Find a mopar dealer in your area. I found one at the mopar website. saved me big bucks. I looked at carquest, napa, dealership and licensed dealers. The best was the mopar dealer.
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street guy
Dodge Dakota
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10/12/2002
13:37:02
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Summit carries their own brand in a double roller for 41.95 and will groung ship it for free. Also Bernd is right on the fact that all chain sooner or later elongates. it is a fact of life, live with it. manufacturing tolerances and machine operators that just don't care are the reason some chain and gear sets are very tight or very loose or end up by luck to be just right.
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RT5.9STROKER
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
19:38:04
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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HOW WOULD YOU INSTALL A DOUBLE ROLLER ON A 98 DODGE DAKOTA 3.9. IS IT A SIMPLE BOLT ON OR DO YOU HAVE TO CENTER IT
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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10/17/2002
00:17:41
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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The double roller set will directly replace your OEM set without modifications
I'm unsure if you have v-belts or a serpenteen drive belt. But you start by removing it or them and drain the oil and all the coolant. Save the fluids. Then you unbolt all the accesories and either swing them out of the way or tie them with wire to give yourself room to work. you leave the compressor hoses alone and just move the a/c compressor to the side. But hold on. Round up all the parts first. Timing chain and gasket set (includes oil pan segment, timing chain cover gasket, fuel pump gasket if necessary, water pump gasket and front seal), black rtv or equivelent, gasket adhesive, harmonic damper puller and INSTALLER, Double roller gear and chain set, New water pump is an option if your is getting 80k or so miles, NEW hoses are recommended, new 180 deg t-stat is very cool too. New oil filter and new oil. Thread lock compound, gasket scraper, torque wrenches, impact wrench + 1-1/4" socket, And if I missed anything else I'll cover it later.
Definately remove the negative battery cable from the post. If an accessory touches the chassis it will ground short your truck. With the accessories removed (note positions of different length bolts and brackets with real NOTES). There is one trick to get the air pump off. You need to remove it's pulley as there is a bolt only accessable with the pulley removed. Remove the bolt that vertically fastens the a/c compressor to the top of the block. Remove the radiator and heater hoses. Inspect clamps and hoses. Pry off the water pump CAREFULLY. use a casting and long screw driver for leverage and avoid damaging any gasket/mating surfaces. Set aside water pump if it is to be reinstalled. Remove more bolts to get the main shaft pully off. do this first, then get the big 1-1/4" bolt off with an impact wrench or a breaker bar and a hammer. There is another trick here. If a breaker bar or impact wrench isn't available there is a special tool that looks like a strap wrench with a v-belt for the strap. Strap it to the pulley ( that wasn't removed-get it?) and twist off the big bolt. next use only a bolt-type damper puller and pull the damper. now get the chain cover off being carefull not to distort the cover or mar any surfaces. Look at the gears and find the alignment dots. Put the big bolt back in and turn the main shaft until the dots come together: Cam shaft dot at 6:00 and the main shaft dot at 12:00. The chain and gears will slip off when the bolts on the gears are removed.
Thoroughly scrap off all traces of gasket. Right now, I recommend using a die grinder with a a scrubbing wheel to polish the block where the old gasket has darkened the metal until it is shiney again. Debris will fall right onto the oil pan so stuff rags in there to keep it out. You can shop vac it out before you button on the cover later. There are special cleaners to get the oil and grit off but I used wd-40 followed by a thorough alcohol-soaked rag used to wipe everything down. Scrape and polish and clean the cover. Scrape and polish and clean the water pump gasket surfaces if keeping it. Inspect the impellor shaft seal. This is the point of failure on those bad boys. New ones are inexpensive and failures are very expensive. Decide now (right now) if you need a new Water pump.
OK. With every surface polished and handwiped clean you can reinstall the timing parts. Hold the chain in your left hand and pick up the bigger cam shaft gear. Wrap the chain over the cam shaft gear and turn the gear so the dot is straight down. Pick up the smaller main shaft sprocket and hold it so the dot is at 12:00 and mesh it into the chain. check it. check it again. Press them by hand onto the shafts. check the alignments again. Bolt on the Cam shaft gear. Thread lock goes on cam shaft bolts. Fit the new front seal into the chain cover case cover before you get the gasket out of the box. I like to stick the gaskets to the cover and the pump at this point with the adhesive. A very fine smattering is all you want and will hold the gasket fine. Let it set. Use a little motor oil on the seal to shaft surface and oil up the chain and sprocket. Remove the rags and vacuum out the oil pan. Place a fine (1/8") beed to the gasket and use your finger to spread it. RTV oozing out from the torqued down covers edge is bad technique. Extra ooze will break away internally and gunk up the motor or water pump or stick the t-stat open. Replace the chain cover then bolt it on before the rtv skins over. Bolt on the cover to specified torque. Press on the Damper with the damper installer. Note : pressing on the damper by any other method could strip out the main shaft thread and then it is game over. Dont ding or distort the damper. it must be perfect or vibrations and damage will occur. Bolt on the main shaft drive pulley. Bolt on and torque the main shaft big bolt to 100 ft-lbs. Stick the water pump gasket to the clean and polished old pump or to the new pump and let it set. Apply rtv to the gasket and fit it to the engine. Replace accessories and hoses-->This is the real Bitc*. Use the old oil and old filter to catch the grit and grime. Fill the crankcase and replace the coolant. Fire it up and let it run to circulate the dirty oil into your dirty filter. Drain it and replace old filter and oil with new.
Now heres the thing. The two manufactures I contacted give lifetime warranty for the Double roller set...Will not stretch or break. After all the discussion I called EPW and spoke to one of the Tech Engineers and he said no elongation will occur. What will occur is a small and reduced wear on the gear teeth and the chain surfaces that rubs on the teeth. But if you remove a chain with 100k and measured it it will have the same original length. The endplay is found in the bearing surface of the camshaft and mainshaft and slop at the gear/chain interfaces. Call 'em yourself.
Do you need a tensioner. My opinion is don't waste the money. If your blowing, all balls tricked, and Nitro-ed, perhaps. For stock replacement and general use...nah! Skip it. My new set is noisy and a tensioner would quiet it. But to me it was not worth the cost.
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Daniel D
Dodge Dakota
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10/18/2002
00:28:47
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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i'm going to jump in here and tell chris that i think you are a dumb ass. chrysler put out a tsb for a noise coming from the timing chain due to slack. the v6's by nature are a rough running motor it causes the timing chains to develop a certain amount off slack. this little bit of slack is taken up by the tensioner. i personally would recommend putting the tensioner on every v6. it will take up the slack and keep your timing just right. a dbl roller timing chain will still make the noise. although it a dbl roller is better for the motor, i would still put a tensioner on it. it is not a trick to make people spend more money, it's Chrysler fixing a problem. i think chrysler knows alot more than you do. if they could have fixed the problem with a dbl roller for cheaper, don't you think they would have gone with the cheaper route? in case you wondering what i do for a living, i am a service tech at a dodge dealership.
Daniel D
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JC
Dodge Dakota
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10/18/2002
05:50:41
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Daniel D, a sideline question. What about timing gears? Would you say yes or no to using them instead of chains. Thanks. See ya.
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Chris Paul
Dodge Dakota
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10/18/2002
10:46:21
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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I appreciate your candor,Daniel D. I too am a professional. I have 19 years of automechanic experience. Got my ASE Master patch and performance certifications in 1985. I am fully Certified in diagnostics, Electronics, Alternative fuels, Diesal engines, and performance I was the Chrysler Technical Training Associate from 1989 through 1992. I won't get into any Pissing Contest with you because I have every TSB sent to me by D-M. If your are really a pro don't turn this forum into a name calling unproductive opportunity to show up an experienced dodge owner; I am a little more than that. I just wanted to say that you dont need it. I already said that your opinion will differ. I regularly trained Dodge Dealership Service mechanics for almost four years and I know that Dodge is pretty good about addressing issues with their products.
I originally said, and I guess you missed the point, that I only suggested that you may wish to not use a tensioner if you go to a double roller chain and gear set. As for Dodge, I can't speak for them. But I can say since the day I earned my bachelors of mechanical engineering degree (NMSU class of 1986) and done some engine designs over the last few years, that cost is always an issue. The tensioner is your option but does not come as original equipment. So, ask yourself something: why does dodge make it and not sell it on a new product? The answer is because the play that so many people are complaining about is not critical. It becomes critical as so many home mechanics and Performance mechanics put more demand on their motors. Thats why they market it. And to get your money at the dealership. Since you work at one now, I bet you installed a tensioner and then put the original roller chain gear and chain back in (a new one should be used, but isn't always). This is what the TSB says to do. I have seen it a few times and I dislike it.
Just read the last couple parts of the last post I did. If you don't agree, let your customers pay for your opinion. I said the double roller set was noisier. I dont care, it wasn't worth the additional part that isn't necessary for the operation of the drivetrain. I never said Dodge was trying to TRICK anyone. The tensioner is an update. YOU decide to get updated or not. I dont disagree with anything you said in your post but maybe next time you could be a professional too. And Finally, I know just about everything Daimler-Chrysler knows because I was paid to know. I also have my own brain and thought I could suggest something to save someone some of their funds. In case your wondering I retired and own a small full service garage here with a pretty good base.
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Bernd
*GenIII*
10/18/2002
22:15:02
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Correction: The tensioner now comes with all V6/V8 (3.9/5.2/5.9L) engines when you change the timing chain. No more oil dripper.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Daniel D
Dodge Dakota
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10/19/2002
02:46:58
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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ok, i see where you are coming from, the old tsb for the prob was to put a dbl roller, i was saying that just by going to a dbl roller is not going to take away the prob, the real fix is a tensioner. it's not a way to make more money, but it is the correct way to fix the timing chain slack. the dbl roller will still stretch.
as far as timing gears go, they whine, they are accurate but unless you have alot of hp (not a v6) a dbl roller from mopar performance will do fine, and i do recommend a tensioner.
Daniel D
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Larry B
Dodge Dakota
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10/23/2002
00:54:43
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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No more rattle!!! I followed Chris's excellent instuctions and installed a double roller chain I bought from Summit Performance. No tensioner. While I had everything apart I replaced the water pump. (Looked like a slow leak coming from the weep hole.)I also replaced the radiator hoses and that little hose from the water pump to the intake manifold. Biggest hassle was the water pump. There's that hose coming from the heater core that would not come out of the pump, at least not while it was in the truck. I had to cut off the heater hose and clamp the pump in a vise to remove the tube for the heater hose and that short fitting in the top of the pump. It's all back together now and running fine. I even painted the new water pump Chrysler red just for fun.
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FazDak
GenII
10/29/2002
16:37:15
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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I have built everything from 440's to 239's and have put "Double rollers" on em and I will swear by em.
I find it very hard to believe a 239 can wear out or stretch a quality double roller chain in any measurable time.
I think Ma Mopar dropped the ball on the 239's timing chain problem.
If they had driven a few "test mules" like they should they would have caught the problem and fixed it instead of pawning the problem off on us.
I've never installed D's cheap ass tensioner but correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't it a friction runner? if so how messed up is that?!! Put another power robbing surface in a V6 to fix something that should have been remedied before it went into production or at least a few years into production.
Just my .02
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Smitty1000
Dodge Dakota
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10/30/2002
00:29:53
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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Well I got my master tech in 1997. As far as engieers go not many of them now what they are talking about, In my experince. If thay did design flaws wouldn't exist, such as the chain proublems. Getting into an arguement with a guy that builds these engines for a living, well that just makes you look like an idiot. As far as the tensioner goes, Its cheap insurance. You may not NEED it, but you should use it. Hay its your engine, do what you want.
Just my 2 cents
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Turbo
Dodge Dakota
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11/03/2002
13:31:35
| RE: Timing Chain vs Tensioner
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HEY BERNT,
Who sells the Double roller set that comes with the tensioner? Got any part no's? thanks
(re: post of 10/18/02 above)
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