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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2009
14:49:13
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 Subject: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Hi all. I've gotten a good bit of information on this forum, as well as across the web regarding installation of an electric fan into my 91 Dakota V6 3.9. I'm planning to remove the mechanical fan and replace it with an electric from a junkyard. The suggestions I've seen are 93-96 Lincoln Mark VIII ("holy grail" of fans), mid-90's Taurus or Town Car, or 98-03 Intrepid.
Regardless of what I choose, I'm confused as to what electrical accessories I'll need. I seem to understand the Flex-a-Lite adjustable fan controller is necessary (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLX-31147/) as it turns the fan on and off with the rise/fall of my water temp. However, I keep seeing things that lead me to believe I'll need a relay in addition to this... ? How would the relay come into play in the whole wiring business?
I guess I was under the impression that I'd wire the fan's ground to ground, the positive to the battery, and then another "relay positive" to the Flex-a-lite controller. Am I confused or wrong?
Thanks in advance for any help!
-John
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2009
15:23:45
|  RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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You absolutely need a relay. Basically, what will happen is you use the thermo-switch to activate the relay to send power to the fan. If you used that thermo switch to power the fan by itself, the first time it would go to start, POOF! No more thermo switch! The raly is there to handel the current draw of the fan motor and the switch is just to turn the relay off and on.
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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2009
17:00:02
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Daddio,
Would I essentially buy a kit then that would have a relay that plugs directly into the assembly for the switch?
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2009
17:21:41
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Not sure but, I don't think you'll find a "plug & play" kit. You'll have to do a little basic wiring but they should provide a diagram and instructions.
This site may give you some basic understanding.
http://www.the12volt.com/ohm/basics.asp
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dakownr
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2009
17:35:13
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Not to undermine your advice, daddio, but I think that it may depend on what kit is purchased on whether you NEED a seperate relay or not. I have a perma-cool kit and the directions tell you to wire the fans straight from the control unit. However, that's not to say that if one used a relay in conjunction with the perma-cool unit that it may live longer, but I have had no problems yet and have had it installed for quite a while.
I have thought of installing a relay between the battery and the control unit, so that it cycles the fans only when the engine is ON, due to the fact that the fans presently get cycled after the engine gets turned off and heatsoaking takes place.
Another option would be to simply use a plain-jane relay wired to the ignition so that the fan turns on and off whenever the key is turned on and off. The downside of this is that the fan is running whether you're sitting at a light or doin' 90 down the freeway.
So, sub1ime14, if you do decide to use a relay, a good place to put it would be in the little plastic box on top of the driver's side fender under the hood (I think that it is called the power distribution box). There should be a couple of empty places for relays and maybe a fuse or so. This will keep everything looking stock, and will also provide excellent protection for the relay.
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dakownr
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2009
17:42:37
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Oh, and about which fans to use- I have fans from a Third-gen taurus (the egg-lookin ones with circular headlights) and they have never let me down yet. I'm not saying that they are the best, but most junkyard should have tons of them, making them REALLY cheap. Whatever fans you do get, make sure to measure vertical and horizontal room on your dak's radiator, as well as from the radiator to the water pump pulley for clearance. I'm not sure if all cars are like the taurus, but the taurus has two different sizes of fans on the same car. I use the bigger one as the main one, and it will cool my engine (5.2 V8)in a hurry. I use the other one as an auxiliary fan when I'm off-roading or in four wheen drive, and with both of the fans running, you can't possibly overheat the engine.
Hope all this helps.
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2009
17:52:44
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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"Not to undermine your advice, daddio, but I think that it may depend on what kit is purchased on whether you NEED a seperate relay or not."
No Problem.
dakownr, that is why I stated: "Not sure but," I didn't know who, what or where he was purchasing and what was to be included.
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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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9/15/2009
20:58:02
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Daddio and dakownr, you've both been a huge help. From reading the description on the Perma-cool wiring kit (part #19001), it does specifically say it only needs an additional relay if running dual fans. It would seem, then, that there's a built in relay or similar circuitry. Dakownr, thanks for the product suggestion and also the recommendation on the Taurus fan. I was looking at that one for a few reasons... one is how common it is in junkyards, and the other is that is is nearly the same size as the radiator in my Dakota, so there shouldn't be much fabricating involved.
Also, Daddio, the electronics overview for relays was HUGELY helpful for my understanding of this all. I've always been good with basic electronics, but I never got to the point where I dealt with relays. Again, thanks to both of you!
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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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9/17/2009
12:38:51
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Dakownr, just one remaining question. I was at the junk yard checking out what they had. The 3rd gen Tauruses there all had dual-fans (side-by-sides). Is this what you put in your Dak? How did you wire it, then?
Also, there were 3 single fans that looked promising. 2 of them were from 94 Mercury Sables (2nd gen)... both were single fans of the same size, though one was on a 3.0 and one was on a 3.8. The 3rd fan was on a 91 Thunderbird. That one just looked large and promising... not sure it would even work nicely.
Do you know if the 2nd gen Taurus (aka Sable) fan would work nicely on the Dakota?
Anyway.... a good handful of questions there, so I kinda lied about "one" remaining question. Hopefully you'll have some thoughts. You've been a huge help already. Thanks!
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dakownr
Dodge Dakota
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9/17/2009
18:07:21
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Yes, I put the side-by-sides on my truck. they fit just fine, and keep my truck nice and cool. Before I had the perma-cool unit, I had the larger of the two fans hooked up to a relay to turn it on and off with the ignition. I saw that this would keep my engine plenty cool with normal driving, so whenever I installed the control unit, I followed the instructions that came with the unit for single-fan operation (meaning the control unit only turns the larger fan on and off). I also wired an indicator light on a switch-panel in the cab of my truck so that I know when the fan is on or off. I have always had the smaller fan wired with a switch so that I can turn it on or off whenever abnormal conditions (ie 4wheeling, hauling a lot of weight, etc) are making it so that both fans are needed to keep the engine nice and cool. I have also thought of wiring it so that it automatically turns on and off whenever I turn the four-wheel-drive on and off.
If your asking how I connected the control unit to the fans themselves, then all you have to do whenever you get whatever fans you decide to, make sure that you also let the factory plugs and wires attached to the fans and cut the wires from the car. there should be only two wires coming from either plug. take a wire from each the + and - of the battery and touch them to the two wires (+ wire to one wire, and - wire to the other wire, of course) that come from the plug. It won't matter if you wire it "backward" at first, that will just make the fan a "pusher" instead of a "puller." You want it so that when it is running, you can put your hand under the hood and feel the air blowing past your hand, pulling from the outside.
As far as using only one fan- using just one MAY keep your engine perfectly cool under normal or slightly abnormal conditions. I can't say that I would trust just one fan if you do any hauling or offroading. One of those fans may keep it cool under those circumstances also, but I feel much better knowing that if my main fan isn't enough (or if it dies for whatever reason), then I have another fan I can use and not have my engine be harmed. A friend of mine got a single fan from an '80s era GM car and put it on his lifted Chevy 4X4, and it fits just fine and keeps his truck cool rather easily. HOWEVER, his truck has a GIGANTIC radiator (from the factory- it's cooling capacity is actually impresive), and he doesn't haul anything with it, or do any offroading AT ALL, so who knows how it would be under high-stress conditions. Better to be safe than sorry, I say.
Regarding knowing if those fans will fit, I'm sure that you could attach any of those fans to the radiator, but if they're too big, then you'd have some wasted fan space if the fan blades are bigger than the height of the radiator. Just either measure from the top to the bottom of the radiator, or measure the side of the radiator shroud on your dak and then measure the size of the fan on the donor vehicle to see if it'll fit how you want it to.
Don't worry about all the questions-the more you ask the easier it will be. If I can't help, then there are others (aka daddio, kowalski, Bob Lincoln, etc) that have enough knowledge to help you with damn near any question you may have, so ask away.
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dakownr
Dodge Dakota
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9/17/2009
18:08:56
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Also, there are a few other control units that may be more or less than the unit I have, and also hook up differently, so look around and see what fits what you're looking for best-Summit has quite a few units. Perhaps there are others that can tell you how the other thermostatic control units perform.
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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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9/18/2009
00:33:37
|  RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Well, I got antsy today, so I went and pulled the fan from the one '94 Mercury Sable before you responded :). It's about 22.5" wide, 18" tall, and maybe 4-5" deep at its deepest point. Fits rather nicely in my '91 Dakota with very little extra "uncovered" space on my radiator.
This fan also is one of the ones that has a low and high speed, which is nice. I found directions on another site for wiring the fan up such that the low is always on when the ignition is on, and there's a switch under my dash to switch it over to high (perhaps when towing and starting up a big hill, I will hit the switch, etc). I was even able to pull the 2 needed SPDT relays out of a 1st gen Explorer in the junk yard. The page with the instructions is http://dodgeforum.com/forum/3rd-gen-dakota/111339-electric-fan-is-on-and-working.html (see near the bottom for diagram). Cost was great too.
Radiator - $13
Relays (2) - $3
Wiring, clips, switch, etc - $28
Total cost: $44
I may go one step further down the road and add a temperature switch (probe) to control the on/off for the fan's low setting. That way, when the truck is cool on its own (first start up, going downhill at higher speed, etc), the fan would not have to be on at all... meaning less work for the alternator. But the way it is right now, it's running VERY COLD.
Oh, and one other thing. The shroud for the Sable fan is notched a bit at the edges to fit tightly into the Sable. This means there's a gap at each side. However, I plan to use a jigsaw to cut this down a bit so that all 4 sides will sit flush against my radiator. I can't imagine how cold it will run then. :)
Thanks again to both of you for your huge help! I hope this thread will be useful for somebody else in the future!
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dakownr
Dodge Dakota
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9/18/2009
08:20:29
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Niiiiice! Now, keep us posted on how this setup works for you under varying conditions.
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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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9/21/2009
11:11:42
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Just a little follow-up. I was able to give this a little try-out recently. The truck was loaded up with about 1000-1500lbs of firewood and hauled a few miles (temp outside was roughly 75 degrees). Some uphill, etc. and it kept NICE and cool. In fact, it never even reached what used to be "normal running temp" before I swapped the fan. I'm very satisfied.
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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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7/26/2010
10:35:38
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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Since it's been some time, I figured I'd follow up a bit more. This fan setup has generally been great for keeping my truck cool - much improved over the stock clutch fan. I did have a few spots in central PA where it's uphill at a nice grade for a good 5 or more miles, and those spots still do me in if I'm towing the camper (about 3000lbs loaded). I think it's mostly because the V6 radiator in the Dakota isn't so large. I may swap that out to a larger one at some point too. Also, use some fairly large gauge wiring if doing this fan swap, as the fan pulls nearly 30amps when on high and heats the wiring. I've had some of my wiring start to melt the coating a bit, which is never good. Thanks again to you guys for helping me to get this in place back in September!
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kwolke
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2011
11:44:34
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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@Sub1ime14
Could you post a grocery list of what exactly you bought?
@discussion in general
is the 93-96 Mark VIII a dual fan? What's the CFM rate on it? How much of an amp draw and would I need to modify the stock electrical system to accommodate it?
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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2011
14:06:29
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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First, to answer your questions:
- The fan I pulled from the Sable (a Taurus from the same date ranges would have the same) is a single-blade square-ish fan. It does have 2 speeds and therefore 3 total wires coming from it.
- It draws nearly 30 amps at start-up on high, but it then subsides. I never did test what the average running amperage is.
- I did not modify my stock system to accommodate it, as I ran my wiring completely independent of the existing system. BE SURE to use heavy gauge wiring (I believe I went down to 10 or 12 for my power wires).
As far as parts, my post from 9/18/2009
00:33:37 covers everything I purchased and also the process I followed and wiring plans.
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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2011
14:08:17
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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And when I say be sure to use heavy gauge wiring, I mean it. I used a lighter gauge at the start, and it ended up melting through its coating and losing its connection while I was on a road trip. Not a fun experience sitting along the side of the road in the middle of nowhere with the camper on the back, overheated and trying to figure out a way to "emergency hard-wire" the fan into the on position so that I could get somewhere to buy parts.
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kwolke
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2011
16:30:11
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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@sub1ime14
how many clips did you use? how much wire? Do you remember what brand switch? Is there a brand you would recommend? Is there a part number for the relays I need to find? That and how much more expensive would a Mark VIII radiator fan assembly probably be if I got it out of a parts yard?
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kwolke
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2011
16:33:45
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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@sub1ime14
Nevermind I see what you said about the relays now. But would installing a Mark VIII radiator fan be pretty much the same job?
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sub1ime14
Dodge Dakota
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8/16/2011
17:57:11
| RE: Help! Putting electric fan in 91 Dakota
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I'm not sure. The most important thing is that the fan
matches the radiator closely in width, and at least fairly
closely in height. The Sable fan matches great in width and
was maybe 2" short in height, so I mounted it toward the
bottom of the rad, since when it gets low on fluid, the fluid
would still be in the bottom, but air toward the top.
The sable fan I believe was 5500 CFM. I think you could get
by with 4000 or so. I don't know the specs of the Mark fan,
but there are your deciding factors.
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