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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/18/2007
21:03:28
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 Subject: Timing Problems
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Ok, here we go again. From my prior string of posts and the switching of the distributor, I have finally come to the conclusion that I have a timing issue that surrounds the distributor. After thinking that I had it fixed the distributor came loose. When I attempted to put it back in place no matter what I tried the truck would not run.
I removed the distributor and put the motor at #1 TDC, put the dist back in and the hold down clamp would not go on correctly. The dist has a recess in it that a tab on the hold down clamp fits into. The tab is just outside the recess area. (Twards the pass side of the truck)
Ah CRA# what do I do?
Can I take and put the mtr at 10* BTC and make the dist fit into the recess area? Or will this make more problems? I have double checked my notes on the timing chain install and the chain was put on with the timing mrks in the right places.
I am currently trying a hunch. When I removed the dist and put mtr at 0* and installed the dist I did not disconnect the battery.
DOES THE COMPUTER REMEMBER THE TIMING AND WILL RESETTING THE COMPUTER MAKE IT THINK THAT WHERE THE DIST IS AT NOW THE PROPER PLACE?
Does anyone have an idea what is going on here?
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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9/18/2007
21:43:39
| RE: Timing Problems
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are you sure you have #1 piston @ TDC on the comp stroke? if you do that and line up the dist to #1 and install you should be good to go.
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dakota49
Dodge Dakota
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9/18/2007
23:08:14
| RE: Timing Problems
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Trev1, it shouldn't matter if you disconnect the battery or not, the computer will still have some base timing, yes you can put the engine at10 BTC and it should work. When I rebuilt mine I put the dist drive gear in incorrectly and on my dist. hold down it looked like a W so I ground down the center of the W. That way I can ajust the timing and play with it to get it to run best. Mine is an 88 so that may make a difference.
Good Luck
Dakota49
88 3.9 4X4 5speed
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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/19/2007
04:44:30
| RE: Timing Problems
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Thanks guys, I've got to go to work early wed so I'll drive it to work and when I get home i'll redo the base timing and reinstall the dist.
I'ts possible, but unlikely, that I got it on the exhaust stroke. This truck has drove me crazy for three weeks now.
When I got the p/u the dist was never in the right position. The wiring for the Camshaft ti ming (pulse ring) was facing and up aginst the intake. Just 3 days ago after I saw another V6 did I know that something wasn't right.
Another piece of info..... Just for the heck of it I put a timing light on the truck. The timing light showed that the timing was around 10* advanced. When the idle was p/u the timing mark advanced to where it was behind the waterpump...Way out there, probally 25 to 30* advanced...TOO MUCH...I know that the computer puts in and controls the timing. But it should not have that much. It doesnt labor ping and starts very easy. There are no mods...yet...
I really hate to grind off the center stud that keeps the dist from rotating too far. If I dont get this right then the timing for the fuel injetors will be off. I drive thid P/U 80+ miles a day and fuel mileage is a BIG deal.. Its got to be right or it eats the wallet up.
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shadetree
Dodge Dakota
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9/19/2007
07:46:52
| RE: Timing Problems
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Rather than grinding on the distributor get a mirror and a set of long straight needle nose pliers. Pull the distributor and set the engine on tdc for cyl 1. Now set the distributor in until the shaft ingauges the gear that also runs the oil pump and see were the rotor is in relation to the mark on the pickup in the distributor. Now since yours already hits the intake you need to use the pliers and the mirror and pull the gear up and rotate it one way or another until you can get the rotor to line up with the mark on the pickup and also get the distributer to set right in the engine. Its a pain in the butt and took me about 1 hour to get it right and i even removed the throttle body for extra room to work.
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dakota49
Dodge Dakota
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9/19/2007
20:49:26
| RE: Timing Problems
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Shadtree, I didn't say to grind on the distributer, I said the dist. hold down. Mine looked like a W when I got done it looked like a U. But mine is an 1988 so mine is a little different than the newer ones.
My dist.drive/oil pump drive only uses a slot like a regular screw driver would be used. So my rotor will only be in 1 of 2 positions, wrong, or correct.
I wouldn't think the dist. would control the fuel injection though, I think the crank pos. sensor and the camshaft pos sensor would control the fuel injection. I could be wrong though.
Good Luck
Dakota49
1988 3.9 4X4 5speed
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dakota49
Dodge Dakota
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9/19/2007
21:00:25
| RE: Timing Problems
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Shadetree, I didn't know the fuel was controled by the dist, but you are right. I guess owning an antique leaves me way behind.
Good Luck
Dakota49
1988 3.9 4X4 5speed
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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/20/2007
04:55:21
| RE: Timing Problems
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Shadetree, if I understand you right you took the pliers and reached doen into the mtr and p/u on the drive gear for the oil pump, rotated it some and put it back in. This allowed the Dist to rotate enough to let the Dist hold-down to correctly fit into the recess. Correct?
The distrubtor shaft on this 92 V6 is like a flat screwdriver, it fits down into a slot on the oil pump drive gear. ither its in or 180 out. The Camshaft position sensor uses the Halo effect to detect the brass 1/2 moon that is built into the Distributor. This is what controls the timing of the injectors. Tis real touchy. A little makes a huge difference.
I finallly got the coolant sensors and have not got a chance to install yet. I think I'll install them Thursday and see what happens when I drive it to work Friday. That will allow me some time this weekend to mess with it.
Probally will rtard the timing some and reinstall the Dist and drive it and see how it acts first. If that dont fix it then I think I'll tear it apart and check the base timing on the timing chain, and time the cam if I can find J and J directions on it. Really hate to tear it apart again...
Thanks for the suggestions. Still open to any..
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shadetree
Dodge Dakota
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9/20/2007
08:18:20
| RE: Timing Problems
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The 2 i work on were both early to mid 90's, its been a while. The shaft on them had a slot like a flat head screw driver on the distributor in and actually had a a hexagon on the oil pump side. I beleive it was either 5/16 or 3/8. But you can actually rotate it about 30 degrees at a time. Sorry about the mis read dakota42 that was my fault. Trev 1 as mentioned above the other end of that shaft on mine were hex shaped so you could move it 30 degrees at a time and slip it back down into place with the gear on the camshaft, with a pair of 9" staight needle nose pliers. Hope this helps.
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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/20/2007
20:48:46
| RE: Timing Problems
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UPDATE....
Ok, I replaced both temp sensors today (Thursday). And there was a change in the temp guage. It reads hotter than before, but still just below 1/2 way. No change in the performance in the engine. I did notice today, before the sensors were changed, that there was some pinging in the motor. I got gas at the same place as always, and it has never pinged before.
The pinging is due to too much timing, if I remember right?????
I am still planning to remove the Dist and set at #1 TDC, the retard the timing 5* and see if the Dist will go in and still leave enough movement to get the timing for the injectors right.
Man I hope this works, I'm about ready to take it to the dealership and have it put on the computer to see what the He!! is wrong.
Thanks Shadetree for the suggestions, If taking out some timing doesnt work and I dont tear it down to the timing Chain Ill try your idea.
Wish Larry would give his input on this...
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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9/20/2007
21:56:44
| RE: Timing Problems
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pining could also be from running lean, i.e. vacuum. pull one of your plugs out and take a look at it. the insulator should be a nice tan color. if it's white it's too lean. could be from a bad belly pan gskt.
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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/21/2007
04:57:50
| RE: Timing Problems
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Ok. What do you mean by a belly pan gasket?
The plenum gasket, intake gaskets and head gaskets have been replaced within a month. The plugs are a tannish white. Not completely white.
I'll pull the plugs again friday and look at them when I get ready to re-time the Mtr. I dont have a vacuum tester. The intake is clean and I cant see any oil in the bottom, as before.
I guess I need to explain a little better.
When I got the p/u it had always had a black tailpipe. Mileage was in the 19 to 20 MPG. It passed oil. When I started to visit this web site the plenum gasket being blown was indicated as a symptom of 1. oil in the bottom of the intake 2. Oil compsumption. I checked and had both of these. When I replaced it the heads leaked. So I replaced the head gaskets. When I went to a salvage yd ALL the V6 that I saw had the wiring fior the camshaft timing/ Halo Effect sensor was facing the fire wall. Mine was facing the intak. So I put the engine at #1 TDC and put the dist in the correct position. When this was done the hold down for the dist wouldne fit correctly. Now it is labor pinging. I put a timing light on it and it is running with the timing advanced beyond the timing marks. When the engine idle is increased the timing mark disappears behind the water pump, way advanced, cant see it.
Its almost 4 am and I got to be at work by 515 in Galena Ks 40 miles away. Hope the helps....
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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/22/2007
07:39:56
| RE: Timing Problems
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OK I got the dist back in the proper spot. The truck is running better but is surging some going down the road. It wants to stumble some from an idle when accelerating. Got to be a vacuum leak somewhere.
THANKS to all that helped...
Trevor in SW MO...
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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9/22/2007
11:52:05
| RE: Timing Problems
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you can pick up a vacuum gage at the local parts store. i believe there is a port on the manifold, passenger side below the TB you could use. should read right around 20"Hg.
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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/22/2007
22:12:05
| RE: Timing Problems
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Yeah daddio I priced one at Auto Zone today. They want almost $40 for one. Ive spent so much on it already I felt I couldnt afford it. I bought 4 ft of the three sizes of vaccum hose today. I'll replace every vaccum hose, I have found a leak around the area of the EGR, it got dark on me so i'll dig deep tomorrow and hope to God that it is not the intake. I got a EGR gasket. It isn't advisible to find a vaccum leak like I did. (can of starting fluid) HA HA If I couldn't find it I'd burn the dam@ thing up.
Thanks I'll let everyone know tomorrow what it was exactly, an how I "engineered" it.
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daddio
Dodge Dakota
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9/22/2007
22:20:10
| RE: Timing Problems
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"It isn't advisible to find a vaccum leak like I did. (can of starting fluid)"
well, i used to use a cutting torchwith the actetylene turned on. if the engine rev'ed up there was my leak. never blew one up.
"Yeah daddio I priced one at Auto Zone today. They want almost $40 for one. Ive spent so much on it already I felt I couldnt afford it"
i understand. i am on an extremely tight budget myself.
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Toby WD40
Dodge Dakota
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9/23/2007
01:07:11
| RE: Timing Problems
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Thats an interesting way to look for leaks guys. I think i'll something else out like maybe nitro or somtin safe. Who is it on here that say's if it ain't broke fix it till it is HA!
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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/23/2007
08:27:53
| RE: Timing Problems
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Yep. sometimes we have to do what we have to do. Not all can afford or have the stores available to get what the book says are needed. The necessity of having to fix what is broken makes you use your head.
Thursday I threw a u-joint while pulling into the parking lot at work. I got the u-joint while on route ( I'm a trash man) put in in using a jack a hammer, screwdriver, and a socket. Took about 35 min.
I just remembered I got to grease it!!!!!
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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/23/2007
15:28:12
| RE: Timing Problems
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Ok it was the EGR valve gasket. Took the EGR off and replaced the gasket. I used copper gasket spray for extra insurance on a good seal. While I was waiting for it to cure a while I repaced every vaccum hose that I could, re-routed some for a better looking engine.
I drove the P/U for about 6 miles. The surging is gone and the motor has good power. Will hold 75 on the SW MO hills without problem.
Thank God it's done. Ill let everyone know how the gas mileage does.
Thanks everyone!!!!!
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dakota49
Dodge Dakota
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9/23/2007
18:16:32
| RE: Timing Problems
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Trev1, where do you live at in S.W. Mo.? I live in Rogers Arkansas. I know a little about SW Mo.
Dakota49
1988 4X4 3.9 5speed
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Trev1
Dodge Dakota
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9/23/2007
19:47:08
| RE: Timing Problems
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Goodman.South of Neosho.I know Rogers,Ark.I used to work out of Bella Vista.Nice to see a neighbor.
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