RE: Synthetic ATFs - Dodge Dakota Forum

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Justin Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/26/2006 16:22:32	Subject: RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: Foresti, I can't speak for amsoil, but one thought or consideration is that Amsoil ATF already costs $9 a pop. If they subjected it to the middle man's demands, the cost for it at auto stores would probably double wholesale - whatever wholesale is? Just a guess but it would be over $12 a bottle. But you are right, I have wondered why I can't find many aftermarket products at some auto stores. Maybe Steve could explain.
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 3/26/2006 16:35:19	Synthetic ATF - Amsoil Synthetic ATF - Forum IP: Logged Message: AMSOIL IS AVAILABLE IN SOME STORES Amsoil is available in some stores -- mostly high performance speciality shops -- that lean more towards quality (for building performance and race engines, or a store owner that appreciates superior products) than to a "price point" retail store (i.e. Walmart, etc.). Justin is correct. I almost every instance that i am aware of ... Retail Store Prices are higher than Catalog Prices ... and AMSOIL IS THE ONLY MOTOR OIL COMPANY WITH A PREFERRED CUSTOMER PROGRAM (like joining a Costco) whereby you can Purchase Amsoil Products at Dealer Wholesale Prices (the same price I pay as an Amsoil Dealer). __________ IN THE BEGINNING ... Amsoil was incorporated 34 years ago (1972) and did not have a sufficient budget to sell national on every level. Amsoil, being a small speciality oil manufacturer, could never compete with the big guys for shelf space. Shelf space at the big stores is not free --- you have to pay for every inch of shelf frontage that you use, so Amsoil chose what worked for them at the time - a Direct Marketing System using Independent Amsoil Dealers. If Amsoil was entering the market today they would probably pick a different course. Access to Venture Capital and the Stock Markets would give them access to the capital they would need for a different corporate structure. __________ Why isn't Amsoil on-the-shelf in more retail stores? AMSOIL WILL NOT COMPETE WITH IT's INDEPENDENT AMSOIL DEALERS The reason Amsoil is not on-the-shelf in more retail locations, is that they will not sell to retail stores for less than they sell to their Independent Dealers. For this reason, many retail stores are not interested in carrying Amsoil. They prefer to carry products with a higher mark-up (profit margin). __________ Worthy of a repeat ... AMSOIL IS THE ONLY MOTOR OIL COMPANY WITH A PREFERRED CUSTOMER PROGRAM (like Costco). Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 3/26/2006 16:38:17	Synthetic ATF - Amsoil Synthetic ATF - Forum IP: Logged Message: To correct a few typo's (sorry typing too fast). In almost every instance that I am aware of ... Retail Store Prices are higher than Catalog Prices ... and AMSOIL IS THE ONLY MOTOR OIL COMPANY WITH A PREFERRED CUSTOMER PROGRAM (like joining a Costco). The Amsoil Preferred Customer Membership allows you to purchase Amsoil Products at Dealer Wholesale Prices (the same price I pay as an Amsoil Dealer). You can Request a FREE Amsoil Catalog by clicking below. Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
Tineka Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/26/2006 19:01:59	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: I am also wondering why AMSOIL tranny fluid is not API certified ......
N56629 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/26/2006 21:13:54	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: Justin, there is no shortage of middlemen in the Amsoil pyrimid. Why do you think the price is higher than most other synthetics?
Shatto Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/26/2006 21:26:32	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: InSpector-gee. How about the official state of Caleefornia smog test I just passed? I can scan it into the computer but how do I get it to this site? Tineka. You only need one reason not to use Amsoil. Fact is all their products EXCEED the government and manufacturer standards. Does ATF-4 have to be certified by API that it is better than their own standard?
Mrs. Gee Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/26/2006 21:53:28	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: Shatto, No way, maybe you're for real. ;-) I don't get how you could drive so many miles in a matter of eight years. I know cars that change their oil at every 3000 mile mark. Shatto, what was your average length of time between oil changes? You practically did 5K each month. Amsoil oil is rated for 7500 mile interval oil changes, I assume. If you changed your oil at every 7500 miles with four $6 bottles of amsoil in a total of 500K, you have spent $1500 on oil. Not to mention changed it every 45 days. It just amuses me what a difference that is from the regular person drives. I am not saying it didn't happen, there are stranger things, but this is the first time I have ran across someone with such a discrepency for the regular. "InSpector-gee. How about the official state of Caleefornia smog test I just passed? I can scan it into the computer but how do I get it to this site?" Good question. lol. I don't know. :( I see other peeps with all the pictures of their Dakotas. Thought it was a normal thing. Oh, well... Mrs. Gee
Justin Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/26/2006 22:28:39	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: Shatto, "Fact is all their products EXCEED the government and manufacturer standards." I presume this is one of those 'In my Opinion' statements. If its not, and you know where some legitimite proof is on the internet please let me know. I can't find anything to verify what specifications chrysler uses as guidelines to design a automatic transmission fluid? I am wondering if there are any. It seems to be just theory that if it keeps heat down and keeps the insides clean then it work in your transmission. Those properties may be beneifical to the operation of my tranny, but still doesn't reassure the user that it meets or exceed manufacturer specification. What are manufacturer specifications? An interesting fact on the subject is the recommendation a long time back when chrysler advised the consumer to use Dextron fluid. I know cause it actually says that on my dip stick. Fortunately I already have done the rebuild process and use ATF 3+ now. But still, anybody can sponsor a product given they get something out of it. Apparently you, shatto, got 500K out of it. Numbers that high are worth looking in to, don't you think? -Justin PS...If you do find a way to post you speedometer read out on miles driven, please do post it here. I'd go off of experience from a consumer more so than an advertising any day. I'll look into figuring out how to url link a picture scanned into a computer. And if you're offering, maybe an explanation on why you even have that many miles. Otherwise, take care shatto.
Tineka Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/26/2006 22:39:58	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: "Shatto" "Fact is all their products EXCEED the government and manufacturer standards." According to who? Every possiable internet search about tests lead back to THEIR website. WHO says they EXCEED api standards? I cant seem to find anyone outside of their triangle to support that "fact"
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 3/27/2006 06:42:25	Amsoil Synthetic ATF - API - Forum Discussion IP: Logged Message: To respond to an earlier question ... Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils (and Lubricants) Are API Licensed ..... And Some Are Not 1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too. 2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue. __________________________________________________ For The Record --- ACEA vs. API European ACEA oil standards are much higher than what the minimum API requires. Amsoil has only "ONE" formulation ... their "best" ... which exceeds both ACEA and API standards, not so with other oil companies. They have two formulations ... one for European ACEA and one for U.S. API. Americans are not offered THEIR best formulation ... it is reserved only for Europeans. Check the bottles. __________________________________________________ Flexibility (or the lack of) In Manufacturing An API Licensed Formula API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils. Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum basestocks may use a simple program called basestock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum basestocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, basestock interchange for Group III and V synthetic basestocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) basestock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic basestock suppliers. Click HERE for more information about Group I through Group V basestocks. There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic basestocks although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. (That's another whole story.) What this means is that if you properly formulate the lubricant for which you have run all of the API tests, there are guidelines that allow you to use that same formula to make 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. viscosity motor oil. Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to change the percentages of components in the formula by varying amounts from the original formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements. For example, if the licensed formula used 10% of a certain V.I. improver, you would have the ability to utilize from 9% to 11% of the same V.I. improver for your formula. Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas Phosphorous content - .10% maximum (API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only) NOACK volatility - 15% maximum The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil. The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters. AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30, 5W-20 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed. __________________________________________________ How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing? First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements. We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V.I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the inexpensive and less shear stable V.I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals. AMSOIL INC.'s products and formulations outperform API licensed oils. They're engineered that way. Period. __________________________________________________ * Conclusion * AMSOIL INC. takes pride in never having conformed to industry norms or standards when those standards are contrary to peak performance. We introduced synthetics to the automotive world in 1972 with the first synthetic motor oil to exceed API performance specifications. At that time other manufacturers refused to recognize the superior performance of synthetic motor oils. Now, however, most companies sell synthetic lubricants, vehicles are factory filled with synthetic motor oils and gear lubes, and some manufacturers even offer extended warranties if you use synthetics. AMSOIL has always offered extended drain intervals because the oil was capable of performing for extended drains, and it was the right thing to do for the consumer. Now the entire industry is moving in that direction. Ironically, it was recently published that automotive manufacturers will be recommending extended drain intervals of up to 15,000 miles in the near future because that's what consumers want. AMSOIL is a company of firsts. That doesn't happen by always conforming to industry norms and standards. API Licensing of Lubricants is Voluntary API licensing of lubricants is voluntary, and it ensures automobile manufacturers and consumers that the product meets a set of minimum standards. Should these standards, in the future, be raised to a level consistent with AMSOIL's standards for motor oil performance, AMSOIL will consider licensing all oils. For those that feel pressured to use an API licensed product, we have them and encourage you to use them (XLT, XLM, XLF and PCO). AMSOIL does offer better performing motor oils that are not API licensed for all of the reasons explained in this response. They provide our customers with alternatives to the commodity products typically available in the market today. If you want the convenience of extended drain intervals or the top performance from your vehicle, AMSOIL has taken time to engineer the very best money can buy. -------------------------------------------------- Anyone interested in requesting a FREE Amsoil Catalog can click the link below. Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
Justin Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/27/2006 15:37:47	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: Amsoil Representative, Steve, Thanks for that forthcoming reply and information on API certification. I'm sure no one expected such a thorough and extensive reply to that question. I am wondering if there is some information you can add regards to automatic transmission fluid specifications that Amsoil uses. That would be much appreciated. I recently contacted the Dodge/Chrysler corporation asking for any information they can give me in regards to Automatic Transmission Fluid specifications they use in designing their ATF 3+ fluid. Hopefully they get back to me and this part of the search will be resigned. Then I might have some more direct questions. On another note, do you work for Amsoil just as a salesman or are you further incorporated into their program. I wonder cause that information you most recently posted isn't readily available to most inquiring, or am I wrong? I am impressed that you know so much on that topic and wonder where that kind of information is available. It would be great if there was more study known in ATF, then it would be more crediable. Note: Please excuse the comment on crediable, its just that I can't find more information on Amsoil ATF. Its only made available upon request, and some times it is very discreet compared to your much detail reply. Thanks again, any information made available is much appreciated. -Justin
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 3/27/2006 20:52:54	Synthetic ATF - Amsoil Synthetic ATF - Forum IP: Logged Message: Justin, I am an Independent Amsoil Dealer in my spare time. It gives me somethig to talk about while I am at the race track or at auto shows. By day, I am a "Banker", and maybe that is why I am so thorough in my responses (due diligence, Patriot Act, 9/11 Compliance, Sarbanes-Oxley, Financial Spreadsheets, Accounting, Risk/Reward, Proformas, Historical Financials and Balance Sheets, Industry Comparisons, Competition, Venture Capital, IPO's, PIPE's, Opportunities, Threats, etc.). __________________________________________________ Perhaps I should make a couple of additional comments regarding ATF+4. ATF+4 is REALLY a different fluid from ATF+3, even though it probably smells and looks the same. And, even more so when compared with any of the various Dexron "flavors", Mercon, Mercon V, Type A, Type F, etc - ESPECIALLY Type F (NO friction modifiers). Chrysler's transmissions had some severe problems until recently and ATF+4 additive package is the response that seems to finally keep them working properly. DaimlerChrysler recommends ATF+4 as service fill for trannies that were originally designed for and filled with ATF+3. ATF+4 is a VERY highly friction modified fluid. __________________________________________________ What is an ATF? Automatic Transmission Fluids are a thin dino, sythetic or blend "base" oil with anti-foam, anti-oxidation, red dye and other additives, with a very high level of dispersants and little or no detergents.The main difference between one type of ATF and another is the amount of friction modifier additive for control of servo clutch action. Type F contains no Friction Modifier, Dexron/Mercon contaion a moderate amount and Chrysler "ATF+__" contains the most. The transmission does not get "dirty" inside like an engine, ... but it does need to keep the clutch band particles, etc., from settling and clogging valve, passages, etc. Basically, ATF is a hydraulic oil ... with the specific additive package for transmissions, plus the red dye for identification. __________________________________________________ Special Note: Amsoil did offer a Synthetic ATF specifically for ATF +3/+4 applications about 3-4 years ago. However once they were able to integrate this additive chemistry into their Dexron/Mercon formulation, they discontinued making this second fluid. __________________________________________________ HERE IS WHAT YOU WERE WANTING ME TO POST: "The AMSOIL ATF is far superior to an ATF blended with hydro treated naphthenic oil. Secondly it uses a premium additive chemistry that meets the static and dynamic coefficient of friction parameters to meet ATF+4 requirements. It also meets the coefficients of friction parameters for MERCON, MERCON V, DEXRON III, and Diamond SPIII. Although the additive chemistry may be slightly different the exclusive MOPAR fluid from the factory, it still follows suit with the parameters set forth by Daimler Chrysler. All AMSOIL lubricants are designed to improve performance and increase protection to engine and transmission components." "Further more, Chrysler developed the +4 spec to "fix" an inherent chattering problem with the Chrysler transmissions. That is the sole reason why Chrysler recommends +4 fluid and this is why nobody offers (until recently via licensing) a +4 fluid. On the other hand there are fluids that are far superior to Chryslers +4 specs, including Amsoil Synthetic ATF!" "We didn’t just one day decide to make this claim just for the heck of it. This was very carefully researched and we have been developing superior fluids for over 34 years. We certainly would not recommend fluids we knew were going to cause problems. Why would anyone who wants to stay in business??" __________________________________________________ I know many Dodge owners that have noticeable and significant improvements switching to Amsoil Synthetic Universal ATF. They state that the transmission characteristics are better than when it was new. __________________________________________________ Interested In Requesting a FREE Amsoil Catalog? Click the following link. Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 3/27/2006 21:39:18	Synthetic ATF - Amsoil Synthetic ATF - Forum IP: Logged Message: Worthy of a REPEAT: The AMSOIL Synthetic Universal ATF is far superior to an ATF blended with hydro treated naphthenic oil. Secondly it uses a premium additive chemistry that meets the static and dynamic coefficient of friction parameters to meet ATF+4 requirements. It also meets the coefficients of friction parameters for MERCON, MERCON V, DEXRON III, and Diamond SPIII. Although the additive chemistry may be slightly different than the exclusive MOPAR fluid from the factory, it still follows suit with the parameters set forth by Daimler Chrysler. All AMSOIL lubricants are designed to improve performance and increase protection to engine and transmission components" I know MANY Dodge owners that have noticeable and significant improvements switching to Amsoil Synthetic Universal ATF. They state that the transmission characteristics are better than when it was new. __________________________________________________ Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
Tineka Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/27/2006 22:02:18	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: How is it "FAR SUPERIOR" ? And who has made that judgement? Where are the test reports that list the names of the testing labs?
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 3/28/2006 05:13:46	Synthetic ATF - Amsoil Synthetic ATF - Forum IP: Logged Message: Amsoil is a company with a thirty-four (34) year history. We didn’t just one day decide to make this "FAR SUPERIOR" claim just for the heck of it. Do you ask other lubricant providers for their independent tests? __________________________________________________ If you want to learn more about Amsoil Products, you can click below and REQUEST A FREE AMSOIL CATALOG. Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
frank Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/28/2006 06:45:46	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: IMHO, everything is FAR SUPERIOR compared to DC products.
J and J Auto GenII 3/28/2006 07:57:39	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: Around here in northern WI Napa has Amsoil and most of the gas stations now carrie it I know the dist and get a good price yes they make some good money on there products The Trans fluid here is $1 a Qt cheaper than you can buy it on line I get the trans fluid he has a 55 gal drum and pumps me out 5 gal at a time and than gives me a good price so I guess I buy more than the average guy 20 Qts at a time than I can pass some of that savings on to my customers In this day and age with the price of gas sky rocketing any way a person can save money makes them happy When it comes to my toys I will not sacrifice quility for cost Larry J&J Auto
Tineka Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/28/2006 16:42:45	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: Ok ... if amsiol didnt just make up their claim then where is the proof? Can you not provide test reports? Do any exist at all? You didnt answer the question .. you avioded it...
Justin Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/28/2006 21:14:26	RE: Synthetic ATFs IP: Logged Message: Frank, There is a chance you are right. ;-) The whole reason in looking into ATF synthetics is that the manufacturer's recommendation isn't working for my transmission. I run ATF 3+ in a 1989 Dakota. Its fine till you step on it... at 2000 RPMs it will shudder whatever gear it decides to go into next ( 2nd gear, or O/D ) The transition is killing me. I think I am too attached to this car. lol. Through and through, there is a chance other ATFs outside of DC's recommendation are better. Now are they better across the board, I wish I knew... ? I think it is worth $150 buck though to find out rather than act like I know and try to pick apart a company's advertising campaign. Whatever synthetic ATF I try, I post back here and state some type of conclusion. the next consideration is having a mechanic "reverse flush" it out or do it myself. I was talking to a technical type of person about disconnecting the tranny cooler lines myself and adding fluid as it comes out. And well, he had the opinion that that is poorer job than reverse flushing. We ended up doing the math, cause he is a mathmatic type, and with flushing ten quarts of fluid out and replacing one each time one is removed, it becomes diluted theoretically and you end up with a ratio of 7 quarts synthetic and 3 quarts regular. Or 70% new and 30% old fluid. I am going to talk to my mechanic friend in a couple of weeks to see what his opinion is. All he wants to do is make MONEY!! LOL. Hes still human though in some respects.;-)
Hhhhmmmm.... Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 3/28/2006 21:52:06	Synthetics? =:0 IP: Logged Message: Hey, whats better - synthetic cleavage or synthetic oil? ... OO versus OIL. Hmmmm, let me think. hiccup, hicccup, hicccuuuupppp. hahahmmmmmmmm....
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