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87dakota4x4
Dodge Dakota
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3/15/2006
12:37:42
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 Subject: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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Ok ive previously posted up here about a knocking noise my trucks making. Well i have narrowed it down to the 3 little indents on the bottom of my oil pan so my guess its something to do with my oil pump. I have high oil pressure when its hot and at idle and it bairly drops. What the noise could be i havent got a clue. Ive put well over another 3000 miles on it already since it started and the truck runs fine. Anyone got any ideas. ((NOTE)) i did the screw driver test to listen where the noise could be comeing from. and i know its on the lowest part of the oil pan and i can go to the top of the pan where it bolts on and u cant hear anything, so wouldnt that mean if it was a crank bearing i would hear it up there not in the bottom of the pan?
Another question is on a 87 dakota can i drop my oil pan without having to pull the motor or the front end completely apart? i know everything is really tight in there so wondering if anyone else has done it in the past? Any input would be great. If it is possible to do so i think i will drop it and see what the noise is.
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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3/15/2006
15:59:42
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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you can drop the pan put you need to unbolt the front housing and letting it down some and support it so the pan will clear
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/15/2006
16:41:32
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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Your oil pan is an echo chamber and tells you only that yes it's knocking. To determine if the knock is coming from a rod/rist pin/piston, disconnect plug wires one at a time while it's running. If the knock goes away while one is disconnected, you found your sorce. My money says it won't go away. I have never heard an oil pump knock. Design tells me it can't happen plus your oil presure says it's working fine.You never mentioned if the knock is more to the front or rear of engine. Get something longer then a screw driver. A small allthread from the hardware store will be 3 or 4 feet long. use that to listen with. BEING VERY CAREFULL, listen good all over the front of the engine. My money says your going to find the issue in the timing gears or water pump. Never having worked on an 87 Dakota, is your fuel pump engine mounted? If so then I well almost guarentee your knock is this pump. The return spring will be busted allowing the arm to slap the cam shaft. But most likely you have an electric pump.other posibilities are a bent push rod or colapsed/dirty lifter. Don't try to out guess the problem. the results usually get expensive and fixes nothing.
So many problems .... So little time
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87dakota4x4
Dodge Dakota
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3/15/2006
23:21:20
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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Thanks OBIO3 that was def alot of helpful information that im looking for. If this helps ive gone over the entire motor. and spent a good hour listening to different spots. The noise is no where to be heard from up on top of the motor. When doin the test. Its only below it. If your standing away from it you can here it and its coming from underneath. I tried the water pump nothing. The fuel pump is manual. But that is brand new a year ago and i even listened to that and nothing from there either.
If i put my hand on the bottom of the oil pan i can feel the hitting basically. But this is only in the lowest part of the pan?? not towards the front just the back. Trust me it doesnt make much sence to me either or anyone else ive talked to about it. Is there a check valve in there that could be getting plugged UP?
The idea of a dirty lifter is possible, the truck has close to 300,000 on it. But the oddest thing is the noise goes away when the RPM goes up and sometimes its not there at all. but will slowly come back?
VERN?
so you ment by the front houseing as in like the front axel? Theres like the big bolts for the left and right side? Or were u just talkin about the crash plate that runs across the bottom?
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/16/2006
02:33:16
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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87dakota4x4......... And you also passed on more information . I'm trying to read only the things your saying that could identify your knock. Using what you just gave me I'm going to pick on 2 things assuming disconnecting pulling plug wires didn't show a problem. First off don't rule out the fuel pump. The knock can be getting transfered to the cam and indicating it's in the back of he engine. I would remove that pump and check this first as it is easy to do. If not there, reading what you said I really think it is a lifter. This is the most likely thing to be knocking. Reason I choose this as # 1 choice is because of what you said. Goes away when reved and most important, comes and goes at idle. How clean is your engine inside looking in the valve cover where oil goes in. I bet fairly clean considering the mileage. If so you may want to consider using some AUTORX engine cleaner in it. I WOULD NOT EVEN CONSIDER any thing else. Follow instructions very carefully. This is great stuf. You can buy it on line. About 20 bucks. Don't know if you can find it at a parts house. I never tried.
So many problems .... So little time
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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3/16/2006
07:37:45
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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yes the front axle
you never said if this knocking is a tapping[ticking] or a deep knocking sound[like you hitting the motor block with a hammer lightly]
this would help
i agree with OBIO3 check the fuel pump and possible your timing chain hitting the front cover,but i,d also check crank play in and out you may have a bad thrust bearing on the crank letting it walk [move] causing the knock
also i,ve seen a bad rod bearing in a 307 chevy slight knock,oil pressure never changed,but knock never went away
yrs away i bought a 69 road runner with a rebuilt 383 had a very faint knock at low rpms,knock went away at 1500 rpms,checked all obvious things fuel pump,timing chain etc turned out to be a cracked cam shaft causing knock[low speed wobble]NOT TO SAY THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM OR SCARE YOU,but with this said it may take some time to find this knock
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87dakota4x4
Dodge Dakota
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3/16/2006
15:36:00
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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VERN
the sound is more like a slight tap with a hammer not like a click its deep not like a fast click. Back when it was really cold out i would get the lifter clicking. But once warmed up that would ovbviously go away, i know the difference in sound.
I did the spark plug test and the noise was there during the hole time. I took the fuel pump out and everything looked good there.
The lifter seems like its a possibility. Just why wouldnt i be able to here it on top of the motor at all? Because this sound is dead bottom of the motor? [note] i went all over with the screw driver on the pan, and its just in the back of it at its lowerest point. It is very faint if you move away from that specific area, if u move to the front of the pan you here little to no tapping/pounding, so what ever it is its towards the back of the motor. Would that mean a push rod is being a little delayed causing the noise? Another thing i would like to add is after it sits for a long time at idle the noise is there but isnt as prevelent but say if I rev it up and it comes right down to idle its a lot louder. Im going to try that AUTORX, and hope for the best.
The only other thought i have is if its a crank bearing based on where the oil pump is located it is running down that and createing the noise in the pan?
Thanks OBIO3 and vern for helpin out and rullin some possibilities out Any other imput with this added information?
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/16/2006
20:14:03
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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Vern.... Nice call on the crank thrust. This also addresses the sound going away now and then at Idle and gone all together at higher revs. Also fits in with his statemente (DEEP HAMMER TYPE KNOCK)If your truck is standard trany, idle the engine and push the cluch in. If noise goes away then it's crank thrust or a cluch promlem of sorts.If it's an automatic, get hold of a dial indicater. Mount it on the front of the engine in such a way you can measure crank end play. Find a way to push the pully hard towards the engine, Zero out the dial indictor and usin a bar pull out on the crank pully. Measure how many thousands the crank moved. Off hand I don't now how much play is normal but I'm thinking new it would be 2 thousands give or take one.no doubt yours will have more going with the mileage. Listen for the crank to click when you pry out quickly. try listening on the trany. Sounds telegraph so you just never know. An on again off again colasped lifter can get a lot of attention to but it doesn't really fit DEEP HAMMER TYPE KNOCK. If it does not go away, I got one more idea but it's rare. I seen it only once in my shop. Busted distributer drive. Deep don't fit but what's deep to you may not be so deep to me.
So many problems .... So little time
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87dakota4x4
Dodge Dakota
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3/16/2006
20:36:36
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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Yea its a automatic so i dont think it can be the thrust bearing. Ill talk to my dad and see if he can get me that tool to check out the play in the crank. My best like idea of how deep the sound is take your hand and support your pointer finger and tap your finger pretty hard onto the desk, to get a gist of a idea of what it sounds like. Obviously theres a difference but its the best i could think of while ur sitting at your computer reading this. It has that tone to it. Like it hits and holdes for a split second and then lets off. Not like a click. What would i check to see if its the distributer drive?
I checked the tranny because i first thought it might be that how i dont know because its a automatic and no sound comeing from that (usein the screwdriver test again). Its odd because the truck doesnt run heavy at all.
Plus ive put some serious miles on it since the noise started. not like just around the town. Few trips up to vermont 200+ miles there and the same all the way back. 75mph for 3 and half hours, More or less of the idea the first time i did it was intending if its gonna blow up let it blow up now and obviously that dint happen which is good.
I really want to drop the pan, because i can see what is right next to the oil pump, i think thats where the sound comes down to to the screan and pump line to the bottom of the oil pan causing the most noise right there. But i guess theres multiple things that could be surrounding the pump. Thats just a thought i could be wrong.
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/16/2006
22:14:02
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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Been thinking on this. Any chance you have a fiber timing gear in that engine. I have seen them worp and you would swear you had a rod knocking.Also if your crank pully is held in alignment on your crankshaft with a half moon key, that key can be seriously wore causing the pully to jump back and forth as the pistons fire. This to can have a loud solid knock, Those and thrust is all I got left in me lol . Sorry guy but there are no other pieces in that engine that come to mind. Distributer would need to be pulled to check the shaft being very carefull to get timing all lines up before taking it out so your sure it goes together right.
So many problems .... So little time
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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3/17/2006
07:57:54
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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the end play on the crank is .002-.007in
max.allowable is .010 in
87 dak-if you going to pull your oil pan and already be in there checking things you may want to consider checking the bearings one at a time,remove one check if it looks fine put it back and retorque[being careful not to mix or turn caps around]torque for rods are 45ft.lbs and the mains 85ft.lbs if you go this route
i,m leaning towards it,s the thrust bearing letting the crank move in and out on several things you said,1-you,ve run the truck for hundreds of miles noise no worse,2-deep sound down low,3-you have good oil pressure at cold and hot[the thrust bearing is the 2nd one back from front on the mains]NOTE;take a pry bar and see if you can pry the crank out towards front of truck and pry crank towards back of truck,if you can see or tell the crank moved its probailly to much
one thing i just thought of, a skirt on a piston may have broken off causing piston slap,not likely but possible,this can be checked if you remove the pan and the piece is in the pan.
any and all the things OBIO3 said can cause this noise,checking some of these will at lease narrow things down
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/17/2006
13:53:17
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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One other thought. If it is the thrust bearing knocking, You might try using a heavier oil. You have enough miles on your truck that heavier oil shouldn't be a problem. It might be just enough to stop the thrust from knocking.
So many problems .... So little time
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/19/2006
21:53:20
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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Begaining to worry about this dude. either he blew the engine way out in the desert and walking home on a busted leg orrrrrr he found a girlfriend and now can't recall where he left the truck. As the world turns.............
So many problems .... So little time
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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3/20/2006
19:15:47
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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OBIO3,i think he,s had it with the noise and traded it for 2 bottles of beer and a woman with teeth that could eat corn off a cob threw a picket fence
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87dakota4x4
Dodge Dakota
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3/21/2006
18:13:48
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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sry guys that i havent kept you posted on it. "Found a women" thats been the case for awhile ahaha, but back to the truck, No luck on finding the noise. Ive gotten it to go away more often and quite down by addin some lucus oil synthetic stuff i think when i do the next oil change i just might put in 2 full bottles and it will completely go away ahah.
Question. Didnt you guys say a thrust bearing is only on a standard? or autos have them to? My truck is a auto, but if my truck has one my money would be put on this.
If i go for a heavier oil how heavy can i go. Seeing how we are going into summer im not goin to ahve to worry about extreme cold or anything im already running 10w 40 which isnt to heavy.
I tried prying on the front pully and had no luck of it moving or as much as u said would cause the noise. Also checked the bottom pully to see if the key way was loose but that wasnt the case, I havent taken the distrbuter off because i dont want to screw up my timing, and i really dont think that would be causing it seeing how thats all new 3 years ago neway.
If its anything major ill just contiue driving it until it goes and get a junk yard motor im a freshman in college so having the time to take the motor apart lookin for the prob isnt really gonna fit on the schedule. Im hopin if its a bearin just heavier oil will solve the problem.
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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3/22/2006
05:56:58
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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87dak,yes your motor has a thrust bearing.
i would,nt use 2 bottles of lucus its pretty heavy,you could try a oil change with 20-50 and maybe lucus for awhile and see if this helps
i use lucus in my car and truck both have just shy of 200,000 miles and like it,some on here would,nt use it,it,s a personal thing
[just a short story several yrs back i had a 92 dak 3.9,started it one cold winter day,no oil pressure on gauge,checked this and that to see what the problem was,finally removed oil sending unit no oil being pumped,had a broken oil pump shaft,replaced shaft and pump etc.,my point is this i had run this motor about 20min with no high revs and no oil pressure,motor is still running today and i believe its because i had lucus in it]just my 2 cents
keep use informed and good luck
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/22/2006
13:37:38
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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Myself, I'm not a believer in using motor oil supliments. But in this situation listening to his reasoning, I think I might do most anything to prolong an engine I was willing to replace with a junkyard replacement should it blow. I have a serious problem mixing in any supliment including a diferant brand of oil adding a quart. Every brand has there own additive package with differances of opinion as to there mixtures and even what they use. There is always the fear a wrong mix could screw up the performance of the oil. on the other hand federal govt. rules state all oils must be compatable but that just means should the military service need to add oil of what is available, it won't burn the engine up.I'll never know what or who is right but my system can never be wrong hopefully.
So many problems .... So little time
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87dakota4x4
Dodge Dakota
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3/29/2006
17:11:18
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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well guys it seems lately with my dakota that its one thing after another. Now the starter is acting up on me. I turn the key and everything clicks (including that lil metal grey box in the left side of the fire wall if ur sittin in the truck) its not a bad battery because its brand new and i even tested it on another vehical and it cranked it over fine. Im thinking the starter is dirty its covered in oil so i dont think that helps because if u sit there and turn the key on and off evenually it will click enough and kick the motor over.
Is it possible to get the starter out without comepletely disasembleing it i cant get to the bolts for the life of me.
On a better note when the truck is first fired there is only a chatter in the oil pan (which makes me think its a rod bearing thats slowly goin bad) im hopeing going to the heavy oil the thing will quite completely down. But this hole starting issue is pissin me off.
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vern
Dodge Dakota
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3/29/2006
18:58:46
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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you should be able to remove the bolts with a long extension,right size socket and rachet from under truck,maybe the top side
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OBIO3
Dodge Dakota
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3/29/2006
20:40:11
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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Check the battery ground at the point of hookup on engine and any/all engine grounding straps.
Mains can rattle a pretty long time so to speak. Rods hammer themselfs out fast busting a connecting rod in short order. I've lost rods on 2 engines. From the time I first heared them they got me home but by then they was hammering real hard. This was driving real slow. droping gears on hills to keep strain down as much as possible. Both times from the time I heard it to home was less then 50 miles.
Keep in mind. losing rods or mains on daily drivers is unheard of these days unless run out of oil.
So many problems .... So little time
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87dakota4x4
Dodge Dakota
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3/29/2006
22:24:01
| RE: OIL PAN AND NOISE HELP HELP
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OBIO3 So the possibility of it being a rod is prolly unlikely seeing how on start up you cant even hear the knocking? Plus the idea that theres close to another 3000 miles on it since the noise started. What you were intending is it would of blown up by now?
would this narrow it down to be a bearing? It chatters (best word i could explain it with) but not loud enough unless u crawl underneath the truck. Did u mean that a main bearing can rattle for a long time as in that theres some decent miles left in my motor? or in a sarcastic kind of way that it will blow soon? Im going to be trying the heavier oil and hope for the best. Have you guys ever used royal purple oil? Would spending the extra bucks be worth it?
Theres two things i think thats causing the starting problem. The solinoid on this is the little grey metal box if im not mistaken on the left quarter panel if say you were sitting in the truck. The box clicks and so does the starter.
But i really dont think its that. Im pretty sure the starter just got a dead spot in it, if u sit there and turn the key on and off evenually it catches itself (NOT as in like the motors spinning and running and not catching the flywheel) at a strong spot and it will kick over. I checked cleaned and wire brushed every connection hoping that would be the case but obviously wasnt. I mean not bad for a 19 year old starter.
BTW thank you guys for helpin out so much
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