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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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10/28/2005
15:37:11
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 Subject: For those with a stock throttle body...
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I don't wish to beat what to some of you is a very dead horse but for the benefit of those who for whatever reason haven't upgraded their TB I think the subject bears revisiting (veterans who are sick of hearing about TBs can stop reading here).
Ok, so either you haven't been on this site long enough to know about V8 and custom bored TBs, or you're hesitant because you've heard that you might lose some low-end grunt. Well I'm here to tell you that this is THE single best thing you can do to a 3.9L V6.
If I tell you my truck will chirp the tires on level, dry pavement (engine at operating temp), you'll say, "so what, big freakin deal". Well the reason it's a big deal is 30" tires, 3.55 LSD, auto tranny, stock factory exhaust, and hot air intake - all things that do NOT help performance.
Only other "mods" are 180 degree stat and a 5" hole in the airbox (still using stock paper filter).
It did take over 1K miles for the PCM to "learn" the new TB, but that's probably due to my (mostly) conservative driving style.
I'm also getting close to 25 mpg highway with this truck.
If anyone found this post to be boring or redundant, sorry, but I see too many people on here spending money on K&N drop-ins wondering why they're not seeing big results - I'm saying take that same money and buy something that WILL make you smile.
Flame on, brothers and sisters.
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TuckerLdLow
Dodge Dakota
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10/28/2005
17:47:26
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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I have to echo it - the TB mod was THE best mod thus far. There was an immediate kick in the pants! Mileage seemed to increase some, too.
But now, I'm not getting 25, and I'm not flaming, either. I AM running a K&N drop-in, I have the same 5" hole in the box (where the air horn used to be), and I just replaced the rotor button, distributor cap, and dropped in six of those @#$! expensive platinum APP3923's.
But my mileage has gone DOWN, immediately after replacing all this stuff. WTF?
Oh! If I tromp it, the V6 DOES sound like that 327-350 with the top of the air cleaner turned upside down that I had 30 years ago. Danged wicked sound - it just ain't moving very well, and the MPG sucks, and .......
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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10/28/2005
18:01:13
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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Tucker, I'd stick with a factory equivalent plug, they have an extended tip which puts the spark closer to center of combustion (that's the idea anyway), and unless you're getting detonation you don't need the colder plug. (I'm using Bosch Plats, the regular ones)
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TimG
Dodge Dakota
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10/28/2005
18:35:47
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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Its a great mod for 2WD trucks but its not so great on 4wd trucks. I just took my v8 tb off and put a stock v6 tb on and it runs much better, you loose just enough bottom end to make it suck on a 4x4. mine seems to run better with a hotter plug too
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Jeff
GenIII
10/28/2005
23:10:21
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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I started thinking a while ago about getting a v8/bored/aftermarket TB, and then thought I could add headers and a cat-back system. Then I realized that I could have gotten a v8 for the same or less cost!
hindsight is a wonderful thing.
:)
Jeff
'99 3.9 clubcab
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2005
00:20:22
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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Tim, that's my point, I didn't lose ANY low end, in fact with the stock V6 TB I couldn't break the rear tires loose at all. It did take quite some time as I said for the PCM to get fully acclimated to it, it had that low end bog for a while.
Jeff, last time I looked you could pick up a used V8 TB for around $50, and it takes maybe 30 minutes to bolt on. It's probably more bang for the buck than just about anything else you can do. And I know it amounts to heresy to say this, but I don't want a V8 - I like the mpg I'm getting with the V6.
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Jeff
GenIII
10/29/2005
01:39:53
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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wow. the ones i've seen online were around $200. maybe i should get off the computer and go check a junkyard.
also, i've seen a lot of opinions that the TB mod only shows real benefits when you also do the headers and exhaust. thats why i said that about the cost.
but $50 isn't that bad an investment even if it doesn't do much. especially if i can re-sell it for $200 online.
:)
Jeff
'99 3.9 clubcab
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Inept
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2005
07:43:31
|  RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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ebay Motors, item #8009716952
Will this one do any good on a '97, 3.9 v-6, auto, 2wd kota sport?
It says R/T, does that mean a sport can't use this? I'm mechanically illiterate, just wanna start improving my trucks performance and speed (she's a little slow, especially on start off) it's kinda sad when a Ranger is competition.
If anyone finds a good tb suitable for my truck please post the item # or if you find something that will help improve her "turtle-like" features lemme know. Thanx :)
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2005
10:17:08
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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Jeff, it's possible that demand has driven the price up since I got mine, I paid $60 shipped, but that was a couple years ago (knowing what I now know I'd gladly pay more for one if I had to). I saw a HUGE improvement with totally stock exhaust, many others have also. If you're lucky enough to have a 46mm bore TB then you may not see a big difference, but mine was a 42mm (we have the same truck btw, 99 CC).
Inept, that's a custom ported V8 TB so it's probably too much for a stock V6. What you want is either a stock V8 TB from a '97 or newer 5.2/5.9L or a custom ported V6 TB (the more expensive option). You can only go so big before losing low end torque.
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2005
10:41:48
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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here's one
this one will work
Check the year on this one before you buy, it needs to be '97 up:
here's another one
Looks like all three have excellent feedback, so no worries there.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2005
10:55:46
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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Prodak, you probably noticed the biggest difference because yours is closer to the optimum size for your particular setup or with your particular mods. This doesn't mean that everyone will get exactly the same results. I have one friend that finally got fed up with his 48mm F&B, sold it, and is now just as happy without it. If you didn't lose any bottom end then good for you but that is not everyone's reality.
I've repeated this many time before too. It doesn't matter how much larger than 48mm you go. You can pull the damn tb off the manifold and you will still only have two 48mm throttle openings. Just for kicks and giggles I'll have to videotape a truck running without a throttle body someday.
I'm probably the only person here or anywhere that does throttle body mods and refuses to promise you any specific gains. I refuse to do it because I know that the results won't be the same for everyone. However, I can say without hesitation that on average it probably is the most bang for the buck. The more mods you add the more you will likely benefit.
If you tow and use your truck like a truck you might want to exercise caution in how big of a tb you install. Know what future mods you will be installing and chose accordingly.
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2005
12:10:07
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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N56629-
I get what you're saying and you are correct, but my "particular setup" is completely stock (aside from a slightly tweaked airbox). These engines are already starved for air coming off the assembly line from a performance/efficiency standpoint. My tall rearend/tire combo would if anything skew my results in a negative direction and only serves to reinforce my conclusions.
The fact that a minority of engines won't show good results is not a good reason not to at least try it, considering the gains can be considerable. Some people are allergic to milk, but that doesn't mean that it's not healthy for most people to drink it.
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2005
12:28:07
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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I can't emphasize enough that my truck took a LONG time to reach optimum performance after switching TBs. I read that it takes 200-500 miles for the PCM to adjust - I'd say (at least in my case) more like 2000 miles. And no, I didn't change/tune/repair/replace anything during that time.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2005
15:27:32
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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Prodak, if you found that a true 46mm was optimum for your truck I can understand why you might be thrilled but you didn't leave it at that. I like your choice of tb size, but you seem to be advocating throwing anything on just because it is bigger than stock.
I don't think those that have experienced a lose in low end performance are that much of a minority. Remember, low end performance is not measured at WOT. When you ease into it, like when you are towing, that is where you will notice a difference.
Think about how your TPS works. It is totally dependent on how far you open your throttle. Among other things it helps control timing and pulse width on your injectors. With a larger bore you don't open the throttle as far to get the same amount of accelleration.
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prodak
Dodge Dakota
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10/29/2005
16:32:15
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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N56629-
I went to a stock V8 TB - 50mm bores with the 48mm "step". I only mentioned that Jeff might already have a 46mm, in which case he wouldn't gain as much by going to a 48(50)mm.
I did say earlier in this thread: "You can only go so big before losing low end torque." IOW, don't go bigger than a stock V8 TB.
I do "tow and use my truck like a truck", that's why I've got big, heavy C load range tires on it, certainly not the right choice if I was into racing. I only mentioned chirping tires because, short of a dyno run, that seems to be one of the few crude but objective ways to gauge torque.
"Low end" or "bottom end" means low rpm range, regardless of the position of the throttle plates.
Lastly I think it's possible that some (but not all) who are reporting low end loss are just not being patient enough to see the final results. And yes, some engines will have enough slop in the internals, or maybe a sensor or two that's close to being out-of-spec (without exhibiting any obvious symptoms) that they won't be able to make use of the increased flow until they hit higher rpms.
I've read some of your posts and you seem to be one of the smarter guys on this board, and as I said you are correct in what you're saying, I just have maybe a more optimistic slant on the subject.
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blue340mopar
Dodge Dakota
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10/30/2005
15:37:42
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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I have definatly noticed a decrease in low end torque with the stock v8 throttle body on my Dakota. I took it off and went back to the original TB that I had ported and polished and it is much better now, although the top end rpm power isn't quite the same as with the larger TB. But I need the bottom end for towing.In my mind I would say that a 48 mm TB would be the highest ever to go on a mostly stock v6. I would sell my v8 TB to the highest bidder. I also have the throttle cable to go with it.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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10/30/2005
19:49:10
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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blue340mopar, the v8 was effectively a 48mm tb with some poor flow characteristics. Many have found it to be a cheap way to gain what they perceive to be performance. That perception is dictated by driving style.
Prodak's 46mm is probably close to optimum for an all around good performing stock v6. Not surprisingly those that go with a 48mm or v8 tb feel the need to add further mods which of course give a noticible increase in performance.
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dakotared
Dodge Dakota
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10/30/2005
19:52:06
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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I am the friend of N56629 that sold the F&B 48mm TB and I could not be happier with getting rid of it. I saw no increas in MPG or power, I did not see a loss either. I had the TB on for aorund 8000 miles or so and I was able to sell it for what I paid so it was worth trying it. From what I have found the stock TB is just fine.
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bluedak11
Dodge Dakota
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10/30/2005
22:42:37
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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I just installed an F&B today, and despite a couple of minor problems that I need to work out, I'm very satisfied with it. I also have a cold air intake and cat-back exhaust. After the exhaust install, I've always really felt the loss in low end power, and never felt much of an increase in high end. I've been driving on that for about a year. I feel like the tb reversed that effect 200%. It feels quite a bit tourqier and much more pull throughout the rpm. Maybe the extra air coming in made up for some of the lost backpressure in the exhaust. This is just my 2 cents. I can't say anything for any other type of aftermarket tb, but if you can afford an F&B, I would go for it especially if you are running a cat-back exhaust and felt a loss from it.
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GB2000
GenIII
10/30/2005
22:58:10
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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Sounds like this mod is a lot like the IAT relocation mod and the Autolite AP3923's...some engines run great with it and some just don't. I'll prolly be having Dave do a tb for me in the near future, so I'll be able to put my $.02 in before too long. With my current "ported" tb it was a poorly dremeled job and didn't really make much of a difference one way or another.
Josh Blackshire - Founder, OhioDakotas.NET
Red 98 Dakota Sport - Check it out!
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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10/30/2005
22:59:37
| RE: For those with a stock throttle body...
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This is getting interesting. We have one person that felt a gain with a 46mm, one felt a gain with a 48mm after losing it with just exhaust, one that lost with just a 48mm and one that lost with a stock v8 tb.
This should help those that want to know how much they will gain by going with a larger tb or swaping a v8 tb. There are absolutely no guarantees.
Now here is something no F&B owner wants to hear. There isn't anything a stock tb of the same size can't do that an F&B does. The only thing you will miss is good looks and quality workmanship. IMHO
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