RE: For those with a stock throttle body...

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97Dakota3.9 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/30/2005 23:19:32	Subject: RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: I will add my experience thus far with the modified v6 TB. The only changes I have noticed are an increase in rpm at idle and tranny shifting at lower rpms through all the gears. There may be a slight increase in power, but by no means what everyone had me expecting it to be. In fact, the tiny increase may all be in my head. I did runs on an entrance ramp from one sign at a stand still to the next sign. On average before the TB swap, I could get up to 60. With the modified TB, I only got up to 62-63 once I reached the sign. May not have been the best test, but the butt dyno feels nothing.
blue340mopar Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/30/2005 23:57:13	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: O.K., heres the reality of it all for those who want to hear my experiences. 1. Drop-in Accel Cool Blue air filter - can't really feel any difference in power or gas mileage. 2. IAT relocation - once again, no real difference in power for me. 3. Crank sensor mod - thought that would make a measureable amount of power increase, but I can't tell at all. 4. Pull off the factory elbow on the stock air box and run a flex hose to the front of the grill with the flap modded to allow air in - nothing significant proven. 5. Pull off the factory air box and make a cold air system out of 3" pipe and a cone filter - lots of noise but no power increase that I can really notice. 6. Port and polish stock V6 throttle body - nope, nothing significant here. 7. Remove intake and port gasket match and also install V8 throttle body, open up throttle bore on intake - Truck idles nicer because of removing casting flash around the injectors, quite a bit of low end power loss but in the 3000 to 5000 rpm, power seems better, just a little bit. 8. Instal Dynomax super turbo 17748 muffler - Now its just louder and I wish I had my factory muffler back on, although its not real bad but I don't like it. No real power increase 9. Put the ported V6 throttle body back on - increase in throttle response and bottom end, a little loss in top end power. There you have it. In my estimation the only way to get a measurable amount of power increase is to go deep and instal a supercharger, turbo or nitrous system or change your rear gears. All those things that I did really didn't make any real difference from the stock system and all I did was waste money and time on something that never worked well. You can go ahead and think your "Butt dyno" is telling you something but I think its all in the way you feel about yourself and the work you just did and you are kidding yourself that you actually made a difference. Alright, there I said it, now bring it on, I can't wait to hear the response. Don't forget, this is my experience and this is an actual account of what happened for me. Go ahead, find a dyno and run it, see if all those 3 and 5 HP mods added up to something.
95V6 GenII 10/31/2005 04:07:14	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: Look, you didn't have to do all these mods, right? I noticed though that you kept doing them even though you couldn't feel any difference. If you're just after the bottom line, you should've got bigger engine. For me, I enjoy the process itself, taking something and changing it, making it my creation, hopefully improved. From my perspective it sure beats just driving around. But it's OK, most of the people don't do any mods, they just drive. Join them... 95 3.9L 4WD V6, K&N, Gibson exh, JBA hdrs, JET stage II, MSD 6A, Rancho shocks and more..
Josh Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 08:50:26	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: If you're looking for power, go with something big. Try changing your cam and a few other things. I ordered a cam, roller rockers, rods, new pistons, and pulleys. Next on my list is the Paxton supercharger. Check out socaldakota.com, krcperformance.com, and hughesengines.com for engine parts. They all have parts for the 3.9, that's what I have in my Dak.
blue340mopar Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 09:12:49	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: The point that I was trying to make was that all these little mods added up to nothing, but I kept trying to see if a combination of them all would do something. Sure I bet it did add a small amount of HP but not enough to tell from the drivers seat. Not anything that was real great, anyway. I agree with going big if you are serious. Cam changes, rocker ratios, different heads and compression ratios will add up to some HP for sure. But is it really worth it with a V6? Some say yes, but I really should have bought a V8. Thats my 2 cents.
prodak Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 10:40:17	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: N56629- Not to make too big a deal out of it, but 3 times now you have said I have a 46mm TB and I have already corrected you once - I'll now try again. If you go back and read my posts I mentioned that (as I've heard) some 3.9Ls came stock with 46mm bores, and if that were the case then such an engine wouldn't benefit much (if at all) from a 48mm. After your first reference to me having a 46 I stated I have a stock (unmodified) V8 TB (50/48mm). My assessment of performance is not based on some "butt dyno" nonsense or placebo effect, but on repeatable/quantifiable things like the truck's ability to pull a load uphill, in OD, at <2K rpm without downshifting, (something it couldn't do unloaded with the smaller TB),while gaining about 1 mpg on the average. And if low end torque isn't what breaks the tires loose from a standstill then you tell me what does (something else the truck couldn't do before the swap). I don't need to comment on the undisputed top end gains, which were considerable. Now I've already conceded your point that some will not get good results increasing bore size, and that's probably due to some weakness somewhere in those engines. But I see no reason why those weaknesses can't be identified by somebody competent. I still stand by my original point, which was that a stock 3.9L in proper tune and with no mechanical problems will, way more often than not, benefit from the increased flow.
N56629 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 10:48:59	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: Ok, prodak, I got you down as using a stock v8 tb and apparently being in the minority so far as gaining or not losing any bottom end. We'll have to tally up all the input and see. Hopefully it will keep coming in.
prodak Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 11:00:39	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: It would be very interesting (and just as unlikely) to see someone take a bone stock 3.9L Dak, go over the whole powertrain with a fine tooth comb (and bring everything up to spec), dyno it, then swap the TB and dyno it again after 1K miles (and I don't mean the guys that sell custom TBs). That's probably the only scientific way to settle this (although I don't think our viewpoints are really that far apart).
prodak Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 11:23:32	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: I'm sure you're familiar with Larry/J&J Auto, his status on this board is legendary, and he's been working on engines for 35 years (and a lot of Dakotas). Here's a quote from one of his many posts on the subject: "A V8 body will flow more air and give you better performance and gas mileage. The computer will learn and adjust to the added air to maintain the 14.7 to 1 air fuel ratio......The low end will remain about the same but mid and top end will improve." http://www.dodgedakota.net/boards/v6/7714.html
Fed Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 12:32:19	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: interesting thread you guys have going here... anyone happen to have a '92 - '95 V8 throttle body for sale? thanks Fed
daveshotdako GenIII 10/31/2005 12:58:14	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: whether or not it gives you more power with or without a loss in low end grunt, this still provides a basis for future upgrades. as with any mods or upgrades, if you do your homework on them first, they will begin to complement each other. this is just my experience in the matter and i am one of the guys making the custom bired tbs thanks to the advice that i got from N56629. GET IN, SIT DOWN, SHUTUP, AND HOLD ON custom 48mm tb, tps @ .768, relocated IAT, 180 t-stat, autolite double platinum, taylor wires, flowmaster 40 delta flow single in/dual out, CAI
93dak4x4 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 22:01:36	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: My 2 Cents: I have owned my dakota for 4 years and 45,000 miles and I have to say nothing I did made my truck a race car nor did I expect it to. I spent time and money trying to improve performance mostly for mileage improvement. All of what I did was to no avail, my milage never changes from 10-13 cty and 16-18 hwy. I have done lots of the mods listed on this site. I have changed every sensor on the truck with the exception of the oil pressure sending unit, I have tried the crank sensor mod and all that did was cause problems and I had to move it back. If you want power either go big and rebuild with parts made for high performance or buy the v8, you will never turn this little 6 into a demon on backyard cobbles and screwdriver fantasies. 93 CC 4x4 3.9 Auto v8 TB Flowmaster muffler, Magnaflow high flow cat 3" pipe 3923's and 3924's....noticed no diff between Injector sync...helped drivability and power...no mileage
cuzindoug GenIII 10/31/2005 22:19:25	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: List of mods in order and percieved change on my 97 / RC / 3.9 / 5 speed(not dyno'ed) 1. V8 TB - nice mid to high end, but slight loss in low end. 2. TPS set to 0.715VDC - better throttle response. 3. Home brew intake removed in favor of a 10" air cleaner assembly - sounds funny, but alot better throttle response and slight regaining of low end. 4. Relocated IAT with switchable resistance - nothing that I can tell. 5. Modified intake manifold(port/polish/gasket match/cut runners/cut plenum divider/filled internally in areas with belzona) - HOLY SH#T!!! regained all if not added to low end and added to mid to high end. I just installed the manifold today, so time will tell the MPG loss or gain, but at last fill up, I was getting 21.52 MPG city, and my last trip to PA, I was getting 26.92 MPG highway. If it ain't broke, fix it til it is.
cuzindoug GenIII 10/31/2005 22:20:30	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: Opps, I forgot to add the FMS injectors I installed the same time I did the manifold. If it ain't broke, fix it til it is.
N56629 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 22:40:17	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: Prodak, if you want to do quote battles how about this one from krcperformance - "Stay with the 48mm for the V-6, the stock V-8 can prove to be too much and kill any torque you may have made before." I'm not advocating anything just showing everyone that there are differing opinions and more than one side to this story. It's all too easy to discount the opinions of others when they don't agree with your own findings.
prodak Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 23:25:14	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: N56629, the difference between our sources is that Larry is not in the business of selling custom billet TBs - that's called a conflict of interest. "It's all too easy to discount the opinions of others when they don't agree with your own findings. Please explain how this applies to me and not to you.
99DAK Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 10/31/2005 23:54:26	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: "Stay with the 48mm for the V-6, the stock V-8 can prove to be too much and kill any torque you may have made before." The stock V-8 body IS, for all intents and purposes, 48mm, so that's kind of a silly statement.
N56629 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/01/2005 06:46:05	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: "Please explain how this applies to me and not to you." Easy, I don't have a one sided opinion on whether or not you will make any gains. I've repeated that many times now. I recognize the simple fact that some people will feel a gain and some won't. I suggest we explore why some people gain and some people lose. Accepting one person's truth and denying another's won't get us anywhere. "The stock V-8 body IS, for all intents and purposes, 48mm, so that's kind of a silly statement." Yes it is but so are all all-inclusive statements.
prodak Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/01/2005 11:23:16	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: "Easy, I don't have a one sided opinion on whether or not you will make any gains." Nor do I. I made that quite clear early in this thread when I posted the words "you are correct" in two of my replies to you. "I suggest we explore why some people gain and some people lose. Accepting one person's truth and denying another's won't get us anywhere." Bingo. That's what I've been suggesting all along. These are machines. They can be made to perform in predictable ways. I recognize that in practice it's not all that simple, but this discussion turned theoretical early on when you started talking about TPS, timing, injector pulse width, etc. There are so many variables that can affect the results of any of these mods we talk about. There are probably millions of possible unique combinations of sensor accuracy, valve and ring seal, cam wear, bearing slop, PCM learning curve, etc. from one engine to the next. Then there's things like type and condition of fluids, filters, spark plugs and other ignition components. Then we have external factors like driving style, atmospheric conditions, terrain, etc. And all that before we even get around to talking about curb weight, cab style, tranny, differential, and tire size. N56629, I totally agree with this statement by you: "...However, I can say without hesitation that on average it probably is the most bang for the buck." I didn't mean to suggest that anything is 100% guaranteed, and if I wasn't clear about that I apologise. My point was that if a TB swap produced gains through the entire RPM range on a 3.9L with stock internals, it can be done.
prodak Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 11/01/2005 11:35:17	RE: For those with a stock throttle body... IP: Logged Message: "The stock V-8 body IS, for all intents and purposes, 48mm, so that's kind of a silly statement." N56629 replied: "Yes it is but so are all all-inclusive statements." The original quote - "Stay with the 48mm for the V-6, the stock V-8 can prove to be too much and kill any torque you may have made before." - is silly because it is redundant and self-contradictory, not because it is all-inclusive.
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