RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak

Subject: RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Vern, the PCM's through 1995 don't "learn" anything. They are pre-progammed, and they use these pre-determined fuel maps to run based on sensor feedback. Only 1996 and newer can do this, and even their adaptive abilities are limited. In fact, the onlys way to make a pre-Magnum setup run well with any significant mods is to use the PCM from a larger engine (modded 318 with 360 PCM and TBI being the most common example), custom programming, or the addition of an inline chip. So, modding the throttle body assembly and adding larger capacity injectors will work, but not without some sort of PCM mod.

vern
Dodge Dakota
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7/29/2005
18:33:15

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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sorry gen1dak i have to disagree to a degree i have the mod tbi on my 89 3.9 and it works fine

and yes if you put the larger injectors from a 318 in it will run rough at idle at first then as time goes it will run fine after some miles

jagbor
Dodge Dakota
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8/06/2005
00:04:46

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Thanks for the info guys but is is not just possible for me to buy the "pkg" I've been talking about and then only use the heads and the camshaft from it-I called a few perf shops in my area and to have my heads ported/polished/3 angle valve job + get a new camshaft will cost at least $1000 Cdn-if I buy this guys "pkg", I can always sell the intake/roller rockers etc to recoup some of my monies? What do you guys think about the specs for the camsahft in the "pkg" ie. will it help with the towing of the 1500 lb trailer or should I be looking at one with different specs? Any questions I should be asking about the heads? Does it seem right that they will just simply "bolt-on" without me upgrading anything?

Thanks again and have a great day!

vern
Dodge Dakota
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8/06/2005
18:26:50

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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the only thing i see is the 1.88 valves will move the tq and power bands up in your rpm,s
[less bottom end pull]

jagbor,if you buy the pkg deal and want to sell the m1 intake let me know,i,m building a motor and i think that would work good with it

good luck either way you go

jagbor
Dodge Dakota
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8/07/2005
00:09:46

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Thanks Vern-if I get my heads ported/polished + 3 angle valve job are the intake and exhaust valves not automatically going to be increased in size or is this not part of this process? Are you saying I am better off to just stick with the standard size of intake/exhaust valves for the 3.9L to maximize bottom end pull(=better for towing a trailer)? If I go this route, any recommendations on a camshaft say from HughesEngines or ? What specs should I be looking for to maximize bottom end pull?

vern
Dodge Dakota
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8/07/2005
06:26:32

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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this is what hughes engines writes in thier parts book=when replacing a MP cam with a hughes cam,use one that is 5-7 degrees smaller @.050 tappet lift for increase power in all rpm ranges.

heres two cam profiles they have without a pcm change

her9204al=int.459 ext.471 lift,dur 192 int,204 ext @.050 cam lift,idle-4500

her0814al=int.480 ext.489 lift,dur 208 int,214 ext @.050 cam lift,1800-5500

these numbers are for 1.5 rocker ratio with a lobe separation of 114

you can go to hughesengines.com or call 1-309-745-9558 for more info

gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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8/07/2005
07:37:59

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Jagbor, the cam in the pkg is aimed at increased torque. Improving the airflow via head work makes it even better. Now, having larger valves installed (yes, the heads will have to be cut for the larger valves, it isn't just part of the port/polish process). Just adding larger valves will move the power peak up, but when used in combination with a better cam, the power band not only fattens up down low from the cam, it will tend to fill out and pull to a higher rpm thanks to better breathing. The 400HP example I cited earlier on makes more torque from the bottom, and smokes the stock setup at redline. Same thing. Better cam and breathing makes more power everywhere when compared to the stock setup. Too much cam moves power up the range. Big heads moves power up, but everything is relative. A good cam and better breathing opens up the potential of the engine. My point is, just going to bigger parts doesn't necessarily kill power in a particular rpm range. Using stock size valves in a cleaned up head will net torque peak at a lower rpm. Using larger valves will move the torque peak up, so while you'll be a few (10-15 lbs) lower at the small valve peak (but both beat the stock output), the bigger valve head will continue to climb in torque to a higher rpm, and will ultimately exceed the small valve head in max torque production (all else being equal), albeit at a higher rpm. This means a broader, flatter torque curve, and that makes for a more flexible engine....great for pulling that trailer up freeway onramps, etc. Naturally, push the specs too big, and any engine will be a pig at low rpms, but you're not dealing with anything that big. Also, looking at the roller rockers....even is they're really a 1.6:1 ratio (more likely), that puts your lift figures at the .450's on intake, and .470's on exhaust (looks like the her9204). If they're really 1.7 ratio (rare for LA engines, but they have been done), your lift figures are as I'd said early on. Either way, you'd have plenty of power for a 1500 lb trailer.
Did you ever determine what ignition setup the mechanic was using with this pkg?

jagbor
Dodge Dakota
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8/08/2005
11:15:49

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Thanks Vern for the info on cam options.
Thanks gen1dak for the info as well-I have not called the owner of the "pkg" to ask him what kind of ignition set up he was using. Although his pkg seems like a good deal, by the time I get someone to install everythng in it + buy a new carb($4-$500 Cdn) + do the PCM upgrade as was mentioned + change the ignition set up, I'm looking at $2000 Cdn for say 40Hp gain or maybe 50Hp which equals $40-$50/HP. It is sounding like just getting my heads ported/polished + 3 angle valve job + new cam from HughesEngines as Vern has indicated might be the cheaper way to go while still resulting in a decent increase in HP of say about 30 or ~ 25% over stock HP(if I do this, then it is my understanding that I do not have to change the PCM or ignition set up + do not have to buy a new carb). Any thoughts on this or am I way out on the potential HP gain with this last "cheaper" option?

gen1dak
Dodge Dakota
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8/08/2005
14:48:04

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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If Hughes guarantees that you will be able to retain your stock ignition and injector setup, that'd be the way to go. Hard to say on HP results, but it'll all be complimented with the use of a free-flowing exhaust, so even if it didn't quite meet your expectations with stock exhaust, even a good muffler would get you closer.

jagbor
Dodge Dakota
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8/31/2005
13:32:20

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Thanks again for the info guys-Hughes Engines has indicated my current ignition set up will work fine but could be upgraded in the future. I was wondering about having my cylinder heads shaved say .010 thousandths-is this an option? If I do this, do I have to upgrade anything else do to the increase in compression? What will I gain if I advance my timeing by 2-3 degrees-what does this actually do?

Hughes Engines recommended the her8014al camshaft but I don't understand this & how it will help me tow the 1500lb trailer vs. the her9204al camshaft-can someone explain because the 8014 produces power at between 1800-5500rpms while the 9204 produces power at idle-4500rpms. For towing, do I not want the power at idle to say 3000rpms since my truck rarely ever gets above 3000rpms?

Have a great day!

vern
Dodge Dakota
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8/31/2005
18:30:36

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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the her8014al will work well with your truck also
[its 2wd if i remember right]i don,t remember the rear axle gears ratio,if you have 3.55s or 3.92s,if you have 3.21s this cam may not be for you when towing[hughes claims there cams will pull 300-400rpms over the power band]

the her9204al will have more bottom end grutt,so both should work well for you

.010 off your heads will help your compression a little[up it by a couple cc,s]

advancing the timing a few degrees will help the power alittle,to much and you,ll get spark knock,
you,ll need more octane gas or put the timing back some[here you,ll have to experiment to find what you like]

Nanook
Dodge Dakota
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9/01/2005
05:56:07

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Jagbor,
It seems that your greatest interest is in pulling your trailer. Have you thought about re-gearing?

Nanook

jagbor
Dodge Dakota
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9/01/2005
16:55:33

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Vern-I have 3.55 gears and an 8 1/4 rear end so is the her9204al my best choice?. Are you saying shaving the heads .010 won't really help with HP or just that shaving .010 won't really make that much of a difference? is .015 better?(I don't think I can go much higher than that correct without having to do or upgrade a bunch of other things). In terms of advancing the timing, I was only thinking 2 degees as I've read on this forum(I only use 89 or 91 octane fuel since I have discovered that gas mileage really decreases with just regular unleaded 87 octane gas). Any other info or suggestions?

Thaqnks again.

vern
Dodge Dakota
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9/01/2005
17:36:04

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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if you don,t turn your motored over 4500-4900rpms
i would think the 9404al will be the better cam for your towing needs,but hughes know there cams better then me

the .010 off your heads will help very little in hp,but every little bit helps,i,m not sure how much can be removed from the heads and still be safe,.025-.035 should be no problem,that should get you in the 9.5 to 1[range] compression ratio which will help

go with a good multi-spark ignition or at least a high energy coil,you can find these on ebay motors sometimes very cheap[MSD,Jacobs etc]
alot of guys run the MSD,but i have a jacobs on my 89,i like it,set the plugs to .050

i will have a set of crane 1.6 roller rockers[these come with the shafts] with the pushrods from hughes for sell later
[2-3 mo]when i get my motor together that i been rebuilding for my 89 and get it in,i,ll take $275
shipped,if you think you,d me interested let me know

have fun and enjoy

jagbor
Dodge Dakota
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9/03/2005
18:55:41

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Vern-if I buy your 1.6 roller rockers pkg then:

1/ what kind of HP increase can I expect over my stock 1.5 rockers etc?
2/ what other things will I need to change to use your 1.6 roller rocker pkg?
3/ Will this change work with the 9404al camshaft? If not, what other camshafts do you recommend?

I am getting estimates of $800-$1000 Cdn to remove my heads and install a new camsaft-is this process really difficult or could I actually attempt to do this on my own with my minimal auto mechanics knowledge?

Any comments re advancing the timing?

Thanks again.

vern
Dodge Dakota
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9/04/2005
07:18:21

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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you won,t have to do anything but install the rockers,shafts and pushrods,you could do these yourself

i,m not sure on HP agains,about 8-10hp,maybe more,you can feel and tell the difference when you install them

yes these will work with the 9401al cam just fine,

that price sounds about right,they,re getting $700-800 around here for doing just head gaskets,

i don,t know how much knowledge you have on motors,but it is do-able,its not that hard but it takes some time and basic understanding of engines,if you had someone how knows motors and could give you a hand or when you found something you needed help with you could do this yourself

maybe you might want to do just the cam without the heads for now and see if the cam does what you want,why i say this is if i remember your truck has over 100,000 miles doing the heads could cause it to use oil if the piston rings are wore,have or do a compression check before doing the heads this will tell how the rings are,
do a dry check and a wet check which is squirt a little oil down the spark plug hole and see if the compression goes up or stays the same,if it goes up bad rings,needs rebuild

hope this helps and maybe save you a bad experiance

Jagbor
Dodge Dakota
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9/06/2005
11:19:41

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Thanks Vern for your honest answers-in terms of mileage, my truck has 70,000 original kms (45,000miles) on it but as you indicate, I should get the compression tested to be sure the work on the heads will be worth it.I will do this before I procede with any more work on my truck.

jagbor
Dodge Dakota
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9/12/2005
20:00:34

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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Hey Vern-just got the compression test info back and readings were >140 for both the wet/dry tests-no difference between either. Also discovered that my truck had the original distributor cap/rotor/fuel filter and plug wires so I had these changed as well. It also seems that the top portion of my rad is leaking so I will get this checked out tomorrow. Now I just need to find $2000 to have the heads removed/new camshaft + re-install heads that we've been talking about.

vern
Dodge Dakota
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9/13/2005
06:17:02

RE: Larry, Vern or gen1dak, socaldak
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sounds good

good luck

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