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islander
Dodge Dakota
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3/09/2004
21:22:35
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 Subject: RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
Wip
a stock r/t does about 200' tq at 5000 rpm.
(insufficient still)
my 2000 r/t is doing 250' tq at 5000 rpm.
and thats before i added headers and duals.
(all other mods were installed).
150' tq gain....i wish.
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WipLash
R/T
3/10/2004
13:59:09
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
I don't have an R/T specific torque graph to look at, but there is no internal difference between a R/T 5.9L and a Ram/Durango 5.9L. It's the same engine with a larger exhaust. The cam,intake,etc is all the same. The highest torque graph I've found for a stock 5.9L shows 140ft-lb@5000rpm.
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capone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/10/2004
17:28:54
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
Hey Sam,
Why is it that only 96 and up can use the non-EGR version? I
assume that they don't have EGR, but I thought the 360s were
the same from year to year.
Why is it that the 4bbl version is reccomended for applications
with boost? Would it be appropriate to use it in any case without
boost? Does it come in both an EGR and non-EGR version?
Thanks a lot. I don't know too much about how intake
manifolds work, but I'm trying to learn. Whats the difference
between the 2 and 4 bbl and what does single and dual plane
mean?
Thanks,
capone
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WipLash
R/T
3/10/2004
19:57:27
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
Islander,
I'm sure your 250ft-lbs was measured at the wheels? The R/T's drive train is only 76% efficient. Therefore, divide the 250 by 0.76 and you get 329ft-lbs. That's nearly 130ft-lbs more than your claimed 200 stock and you say 150ft-lbs isn't possible. You have already done it. I can't find a publication that shows the 5.9L making more than 140ft-lbs at 5000rpm. I'm missing all of the R/T's charts. I'm going off of Ram's and Durangos. There isn't going to be 100ft-lbs of extra torque found just by increasing the size of the exhaust pipes. 90% of the time, you loose torque when ever you increase the size of the exhaust. A 1999 5.9L makes 100ft-lbs of torque at the crank at 5000rpms. Your making about 329ft-lbs od torque at the crank if you measured 250 at the rear wheels. That's 229ft-lbs more than stock. "You WISH" you could get 150ft-lbs extra at 5K? You would be going backwards if that's all you WISHED for.
"I WISH" people could add and subtract before they come on here making absurd comments.
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islander
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/10/2004
23:01:04
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
go here..
http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/t/h/therrin/dakota.html
scroll down to the paragraph that begins with:
"before intake"
click the dyno link in that paragraph.
the black line is a stock rt tq measurement.
it shows:
190'tq at 5000 rpm...at the wheels..on a 99 5.9l.
thats 250'tq at the crank by your own formula.
good site to learn on.
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WipLash
R/T
3/11/2004
00:26:58
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
Well,
The manufacturer rates the 99 5.9L at 160ft-lbs. The black line on his gragh represents ALMOST STOCK. He even states that the engine is "ALMOST STOCK" and it shows 180ft-lb at 5K. If you read carefully you'll notice he had upgraded the intake/airfilter and the PCM on that ALMOST STOCK dyno pull and there's no telling what else. It also appears he upgraded the ignition prior to that pull.....
I'm comparing STOCK torque numbers to non-stock. So, whatever it is your arguing it is pointless because we aren't even talking about the same thing. I'm comparing stock to non-stock and you are comparing ALMOST STOCK to Heavily Modified......
Also, I made a typo earlier. The 1999 5.9l makes 160ft-lbs at 5k not 100. I was looking at the wrong graph. So, it would be reasonable to assume an ALMOST STock engine making 180ft-lbs at the rear wheels vs. a stock engine making 160 at the crank.
Also, he is running a cam much larger than stock. It is not a cam optimal for producing high torque. It is more suited to high HP. The R/T cam simply brings the torque curve up about 1000rpm without drastically changing anything else. By raising the power band 1000rpm, the 5.9l will make 280ft-lbs of torque instead of 160ft-lbs @ 5K and that's with no other mods. Swap PCM's, roller rockers, headers, air intake, etc.. and you can easily exceed a 150ft-lb gain in torque at 5000rpm. This engine is so lazy above 4K that there is no way to make it worse.
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capone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/11/2004
11:49:52
| RE: Mopar M1
IP: Logged
Message:
Sam?
Anyone?
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islander
Dodge Dakota
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3/11/2004
17:49:59
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
look man..we all realize you applied the hp side of some chart to the torque curve and came up with 50' or so torque at 5000 rpm.
interpret the info i gave you however you want.
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WipLash
R/T
3/11/2004
20:04:59
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
Islander,
I simply looked at the wrong graph. I was looking at a 97 5.9L. Depending on which side of the line (it's very thick ink)you scale across from, you can read the torque of the 1997 5.9L at 5000rpm to be anywhere from 60 to 90ft-lbs. I have the 97 and the 99 plotted on the same page and they are the same color. Throw in a couple of beers and you get the picture.....
I hope I get to base line my R/T real soon. I will see for myself what a stock R/T actually makes. I have a set of JBA headers ready to install. I plan to do a before and after run. I also plan to do a pull with and without the Performance PCM and the M1. If the average torque across the rpm range drops with the M1 I will be selling it on Ebay. My goal is to bring the average torque reading across the entire 650-5500rpm range over 320ft-lb. I want the peak torque to be in the 360-400ft-lb range. I think that is easily obtainable since the 5.2l already averages 280 across the entire rpm range. The 5.2 and 5.9L engines are about the only 2 engines Dodge has ever made that didn't produce 1ft-lb per cubic inch. I may have to raise the compression ratio to accomplish this.
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Rich
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/11/2004
20:09:00
|  RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
wiplash,
If you are going to sell it, contact me first.
I'll be interested.
-Rich
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WipLash
R/T
3/11/2004
20:45:14
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
I'm purchasing a M1 next week. I hope to do the Dyno and install by the end of next month. I'm trying to set up an appointment for a base line pull in Southhaven MS. I'll be posting my results. I have a feeling that I will be too ashamed of the stock numbers to post them. I think my 4.7L made as much torque across the rpm range as my R/T. I will soon find out.
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Rich
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/11/2004
20:46:20
|  RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
Where are you getting your m1?
How much are you getting it for?
-Rich
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WipLash
R/T
3/11/2004
21:26:44
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
stevewhitedodgejeep is the place that quoted me $320.00. It's brand new. I'm sure there is one somewhere cheaper, but that's about the cheapest I've found so far. I still have not found a cam (R/T) at a price I can live with. The dyno pull at the end of next month depends on if I can find a cam. I'm not going to pay $400.00 for an R/T cam from the dealer. Half that is for the lifters you don't need. It maybe as late as this summer before I make my final dyno run.
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islander
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/11/2004
23:30:31
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
I'll take that as a man up.
320' tq wide across the band..you'll need
heads and cam..torque convertor/4.56 gears because low end torque will be lower/
flash pcm for higher shift points(5700 sounds safe)/upgrade the valve train for the higher rpm/52mm fb tb..kngen2 cold air intake..rockers..
I'd look at 1.92 heads or street ported stockers..
the above subject to opinion. theres lots of ways and tricks..remove clutch fan etc.
or go 408 stroker.
my own combo should go..330 tq' at 3800 rpm
smoothly to 270 tq' at 5000 rpm..peak around 3500 at 340 tq...at the wheels.
thats not bad for a few basic bolt ons.
It sure feels good...want more.
Sam Parthener has his engine built like i mentioned and maybe some good suggestions.
You can find him at the delphi rt forum easiest..
or your local hooters.
call Sam.
call KRC.
call Dan the fastman.
call John mercedes at southeastrt.com.
They'll help.
I have a beer barrel vs m1 hp/tq chart.
if you want it post your email.
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islander
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/11/2004
23:40:33
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
do not sell your r/t.
mod it when you can and keep it clean.
theres a club cab running 13.3 1/4 mile
with stock heads and cam..n/a..others in the 13's...stock heads and cam.
learn up.
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Rich
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/12/2004
13:03:46
| RE: Mopar M1
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Message:
Stevewhitedodge just quoted me 409.07 for the manifold, installation kit, and gasket.
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WipLash
R/T
3/12/2004
13:39:52
| RE: Mopar M1
IP: Logged
Message:
Rich,
The price I got does not include the installation kit. I already have the gaskets. If I need fasteners my job has everything I need. The install kit is a rip off.
Islander,
I'm referencing the 320 average torque at the crank. That would be under 260 at the wheels. I don't need heads for that. My 400 averaged 370ft-lbs of torque through the entire rpm range. All it had was a 280 cam, Edelbrok Performer Intake, 9.8:1 compression, and Rhoads Lifters. A 270-275 cam would have actually given me more usable torque in the mid-range. It peaked at 430ft-lb.
It is relatively easy to obtain 1ft-lb of torque for every 1cu-in. The 4.7HO already does it. The 5.7l Hemi already does it. Nearly every engine that has come out of Dodge's plant has made at least that much torque. Even the low compression 440's of the mid 70's made over 480ft-lbs. I am confident that I can do it with the original set of heads. I may have to change pistons.
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rtdkota
R/T
3/12/2004
15:20:52
| RE: Mopar M1
IP: Logged
Message:
OK-- I am back-- Sorry, my mom is on her death bed so I have been extremely stressed out and have had only about an hour a day to do anything but sleep/go to work, and see my mom.
M1s--- 95 and older (OBD-I) MUST use the EGR version as they have EGR systems on their vehicles. To bypass them you'd have to plug ports and basically disable the system, which might have negative results in tuning.
96 and newer (OBD-II) do not have an EGR system, and can use either the NON-EGR, or EGR M1s (just plug the non used ports on the manifold).
The 4bbl (both the older version, and the newer version) is a NON-EGR setup (does not have provisions for the EGR plumbing).
I run a 4bbl on my truck and NA on stock gears, I lost a good bit of torque on stock heads and cam. But I did gain approx 16 rwhp peak... the trade was worth it-- I then did 1.92 non ported RT heads, a custom ground Crower cam to work with my 1.7 Crower rockers I already had. Picked up ALL of my lost torque, and my curve was a lot flatter than before... (make 110 ft. lbs. MORE torque at 5k rpm than I did stock). Picked up 34 addtional rwhp-- (I make 100 hp more than stock at 5200 rpm). On a heads up race with a similarly modded RT w/ 2bbl M1-- it's pretty close... I might run 1/10th slower, or 1/10 faster depending on the truck, but always run 1-2.5 mph faster through the lights... Gears are next on my mod list (and going in tomorrow)-- Getting me into the higher rpms quicker most definately will improve my times. I also run nitrous on this truck, and have run a best of 12.62@108.9 on a 100 shot (900 psi bottle), and a 12.52@110.0 on a 150 shot (750 psi bottle--)
Neither NX run was with a heater--- a heater would have made a big difference, but I am going NA for now.
My price on the M1 2bbl is $422 shipped-- includes everything, including the bypass hose, and T stat housing gasket. Best I can do guys-- I am a small biz, and not the dealership that can blow things out at or near cost. I am in this to make a little bit of money, doing something I enjoy doing.
If you break down other people's prices, add in the freight, etc. You'll find I am very competitively priced-- and offer free tech support questions 24/7 (but I prefer to handle them on weekends 7 am to 12 mid PST-- I'll even call ya back to save you the long distance charges).
Sam
619-274-1292
www.socaldakota.com
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capone
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/12/2004
15:39:09
| RE: Mopar M1
IP: Logged
Message:
Thanks Sam. I wish you the best for your mother.
I'm curious. Why does a higher flow intake manifold decrease
low end torque? If I had higher flow R/T heads, would it help
prevent the loss?
I'm not planning on purchasing one for a while. I need to get my
engine built and everything first, but I just want to be prepared
and know what to look for and expect. You'll be the first person
I look to for purchasing an M1 when the time comes.
Thanks,
capone
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WipLash
R/T
3/12/2004
22:50:38
| RE: Mopar M1
IP: Logged
Message:
Capone,
The R/T heads compliment the intake and cam. Dodge originally developed these as an "R/T kit" that was meant to be sold together and work together. If you just add one of these components to your stock engine you will see little or no gains and you might even loose some. That's why I'm doing the exhaust first. I figure I won't loose anything by putting on headers now and the headers will compliment the other modifications I plan to make later.
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