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Tom
Dodge Dakota
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4/09/2003
14:19:59
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 Subject: intercooler or injection
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I heard great things about intercooling your s/c and also ran across the "boost Cooler" by www.snowperformance.net. Anyone try these ?
97 Dakota 5.2L, Magnum R/T heads, KRC 210B cam, headers, cat-back, MSD, Powerdyne s/c
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TurboGuy
Dodge Dakota
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4/09/2003
22:55:30
| RE: intercooler or injection
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Got news for ya. Water injection has been around since the 1930s. It doesnt add any hp because the water injected takes up volume that air/gas need to create additional power. (more air/gas=more power)
The water does "cool" the intake charge, but no way in hell it adds 100hp like that website claims.
Kinda expensive too, considering you can fab one up yourself for under $100.
Besides you have to keep refilling water injection. Cars have loads of room for an intercooler and associated plumbing.
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tom
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2003
11:44:40
|  RE: intercooler or injection
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My main concern was cost & installation.
The "Boost Cooler" is a methanol/water injection system, not just water. It's suppose to allow you to run more boost and more timing under boost instead of retarding the timing.:)
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/10/2003
12:04:12
| RE: intercooler or injection
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a lot of the buick GN guys run the water/alky injection, with great success. i have also talked to several RT guys who run the alky injection, and it cut 3-6 tents off there 1/4 time.
two of them said they could run full timing on the mopar pcm, with 9-10lbs of boost.
im probably going to get this one...
http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/SteveCkit.html
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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Daker777
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2003
13:08:22
| RE: intercooler or injection
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Turbo guy- Alky injection does add horsepower, indirectly. I just got rid of my Scer with an alky system on it and it gave back alot of timing that had to be pulled. The more timing you get back, the more horsepower is being put down. There are many r/ts with the track times to prove it. Myself being included.
Secondly there is NO room for an intercooler- Air to air atleast- on our v8 trucks. The only place is under the car which is no good. Alky systems cost around 300 bucks and take a few hours to put in. An air to air intercooler would take complete fabrication, over 1000 dollars, and the risk of breaking it on a speed bump.
Are you gonna get 100hp from alky? Not unless you are running insane boost levels and detonation is a problem. But you tell me a mod that will give you 6 tenths for 300 bucks?
Go with an alky kit, it is the best option there is right now.
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Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2003
13:09:40
| RE: intercooler or injection
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Believe it or not, but Saab uses a system that takes the windshield washer fluid (alcohol based) to cool the intake charge, when it runs out, it retards the timing. It's only activated at full throttle.
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Franky
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2003
13:10:30
| RE: intercooler or injection
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Yea good luck with yur stock valves, dude. Trust.
From experience it bakes the edges and seats even if you got s/s. You'll get a couple good runs before u pack it in and head home with ur heads trashed. Unless maybe u tear ur sh1t down every weekend.Just my 2c, no offence.
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Daker777
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2003
14:04:02
| RE: intercooler or injection
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Im not saying your wrong, but i used it for over a year and a half with no problems. There are also some cars that came from the factory using this. Thousands of people use it and for decades and decades they have, I have never heard of any PROVEN ill effects from using such a system, except that it can wash the cylinder walls and can POSSIBLY reduce engine life to 100k miles of continued use-It was actually tested. I am telling you not just my expericance which had NO ill effects. Even with almost 30 strip runs, and hundreds of times used on the street. I was probly the first dakota r/t guy to use an alky/water system. All you have to do if you are worried about problems with spraying too much water is put some "lube" in the mix. Im speaking from the person who gave me the idea and ran a hot rod with a very archaic water injection setup for almost 10 years. Get a quality system and you wont have any problems.
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HSKR
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2003
14:28:50
| RE: intercooler or injection
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The only way alky injection will harm your motor is if you are spraying too much of it into the cylinders.
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TurboGuy
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2003
19:24:01
| RE: intercooler or injection
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So you guys that are running this are also running superchargers??
I would figure the alcohol would evaporate too fast to be of any use.
I dont understand why folks just dont buy a quality ignition setup where you can pull timing out if youre running nitrous or supercharger.
I guess its not for me.
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brianman
Dodge Dakota
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4/10/2003
23:08:52
| RE: intercooler or injection
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look at it this way water dont burn. why would you impede forward motion to gain forward motion?
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j
GenIII
4/11/2003
01:09:44
| RE: intercooler or injection
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You are already putting water into your chamber even if you don't have water injection (unless it is 0% humidity). The difference is, water in the outside air doesn't help you because it's already a vapor. With water injection the water is vaporized in your intake air and it takes a lot of heat out of it in the process. The charge will be cooler. Temperatures in the chamber will be lower. Which means you can run more boost, or more advanced timing or both.
2000 4.7 CC auto, clear corners, Magnaflow catback, Kenne Bell s/c.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/11/2003
01:31:35
| RE: intercooler or injection
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turbo guy, the whole purpose of the alky injection is to keep temps down, so you can ADD MORE timing! retarding timing does keep it from detonating, but also robs power.
BTW you post up top about robbing you of power because it takes up volume in the manifold, sorry but i have to disagree!
a few immeasurable specs of water, will not take away from the volume of the manifold to even notice. heck even if it did, it would just add more torque (that is the purpose of the turtle in the M1's.. to take up volume and to give back some of the torque that some have clamed to have lossed)
yes i have a supercharger, yes i have a MSD BTM to pull timing, and yes i will be getting a alky injection kit! if you had a blower, and felt the power get sucked out of your ride when you turned the little red knob to the right, you would know what im talking about.
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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TurboGuy
Dodge Dakota
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4/11/2003
06:48:49
| RE: intercooler or injection
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Kotaon20s...a few immeasurable specs?? Yeah ok. You have 8 freaking cylinders. Water has volume...volume that sacrifices cubic inches when injected in a motor.
A good ignition system as well as a properly sized blower coupled with intercooling can make loads of power. I just dont trust alcohol in a street motor. I would use nitrous over alcohol.
Adding a bigger blower or turbo does virtually the same thing as alcohol injection. It adds more cooler air to the point of its effective effciency. For instance at 6psi, turbo 1 makes 250 hp. But the intake charge is 240 degrees. Add a larger turbo (that doesnt spin as hard and create more heat) and you can drop intake temps 20-40 degrees.
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Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
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4/11/2003
09:02:20
| RE: intercooler or injection
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The simple act of compressing air creates heat. When a gas expands or liquid evaporates, the reverse happens (read up on how your A/C system works)
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Dally
Dodge Dakota
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4/11/2003
09:44:37
| RE: intercooler or injection
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There's only one point being missed here. water has 7+ times the ability to create horse power alone, with out any other fuels. When combined with a gas/air mix, at optimum levels of total combined mix, you will see extreme gains. However, you gotta do it right, the hotter you can get that steam, the better it will atomize.
This works simmilar to the way the older highway trucks used propane injection in the big diesels.
In order to really be able to wrap your mind around this, you need to combine the primary principals of a steam engine, and a fuel injected v-8. I did this on a 68 chevy 250 inline, for the purpose of fuel economy. I lost no HP, and gained 18.5 mp/g, bringing the old truck up to a whoppin 35 mp/g. THATS MORE THAN DOUBLE THE MILEAGE. Now start shavin heads and compressing mixes. you do the math.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/11/2003
11:19:25
| RE: intercooler or injection
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turboguy, the water never makes it into the 8 freaking cylenders, and like i said about the time its in the manifold, it just builds torque. as for getting a bigger blower or turbo, i dont know if you know it or not, but we are kinda limited by our choices. and for some people, money is an issue.
adding a larger turbo also makes for more turbolag, but since no one here besides duner has a turbo, lets not stray away from the superchargers
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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j
GenIII
4/11/2003
11:31:29
| RE: intercooler or injection
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Changing the size of my blower is not even an option. Yes, a fraction of the charge volume is taken up by water. Any negative effects of adding water vapor to the charge are more than offset by the increase in timing or boost allowed by the cooling effects of vaporization. Remember a cooler charge is a denser charge.
My knock detector will back off the timing at the first sign of pinging. But Kota is right, it is a large loss of power.
2000 4.7 CC auto, clear corners, Magnaflow catback, Kenne Bell s/c.
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
4/11/2003
12:13:56
| RE: intercooler or injection
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"but since no one here besides duner has a turbo"
where the hell did i go???
just because you get a bigger blower/turbo wont make the intake charge less hot... it will just cause more lag like eric said.
Turbocharged V6
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daveczrn
Dodge Dakota
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4/11/2003
13:17:50
| RE: intercooler or injection
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your car will run faster on a less humid day. why is that ????? because of the water vapor in the air.... corkey bell says that water/alc. inj. is not the right way to cool the intake charge and he is the man when it comes to turbos... injection will let you create more power but not as much as an intercooler can.
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j
GenIII
4/11/2003
13:28:58
| RE: intercooler or injection
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More humidity = less dense charge = less power. The difference is, with water injection the injected water is vaporized in the intake and absorbs heat resulting in a cooler, denser charge. This is getting redundant. If you don't like water injection, don't use it.
2000 4.7 CC auto, clear corners, Magnaflow catback, Kenne Bell s/c.
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/11/2003
13:34:39
| RE: intercooler or injection
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dave, you are right, but like Brig said, THERE IS NO ROOM unless you put the IC under the truck like procharger did, and that is a horrible place to put it. i know greg put, or is going to put his in the front valance area, but he has a lot more room to work with having a V6.
the only other ways to cool the intake charge is nitrous, but i dont like the idea of adding more pressure to the cylenders on top of the boost. even if it is a 25-50shot.. and ON TOP of that, you are spending at least $700 for the nitrous kit
then there is the cyrogenic (sp?) systme. looks good, it freezes the intake tube with Co2, but after you buy the tank, and then the intake kit, you are about, if not over the $500 mark
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/11/2003
13:39:22
| RE: intercooler or injection
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J, i agree with you! if you dont like it, buy something else.
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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IntenseDak39
*GenIII*
4/11/2003
14:04:34
| RE: intercooler or injection
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dont know if i am gonna do it anymore eric.. probably selling everything on the truck. Need something i can depend on now that i am down to two cars (fiance killed the alero).
if i only sell the intercooler i might go for the water injection.. i have seen many people use it, win with it, and like it...
Turbocharged V6
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brianman
Dodge Dakota
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4/12/2003
14:23:54
| RE: intercooler or injection
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then why not switch to a carb induction? as the fuel is metered into the intake it absorbs a tremendous amount of heat as it atomizes with the surounding air. it gives you the same effect as injecting any other liquid into the intake, but you get an added bonus the liquid you are injecting is fuel which can be burnt to make power. for those of you who say going carburation would be a step backward haaaaa. its not as big of a step backward as old water injection. you guys are trying to solve an age old problem with ancient ideas. just get a very efficient water to air intercooler. thats what they are designed for.
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Danny
Dodge Dakota
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4/12/2003
15:12:19
| RE: intercooler or injection
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I had a water injection system on a turbocharged vehicle. No it's not a blower but the concept is essentially the same.
I never tinkered much with the alchy injection other then the fact that I ran windshield washer fluid that contained alcohol in it into my motor. The same reservoir I had feeding my window sprayers also fed my motor.
After installing the system I was able to run 1 psi of boost more (keep in mind the vehicle had 8.5:1 compression) and was able to advance the ignition timing a little bit. It resulted in 1 mph in the 1/4 and .2 difference in my ET's.
Water injection DOES work but the gains are pretty mild. If you are looking to knock 1/10's off your ET's then fine. If you want to knock off a full second then intercool. If you can afford an intercooler then do it. If not, water injection isnt a bad idea. If you can afford both then that's even better.
This is a VERY similair set up to what I ran in my car
http://www.frii.net/~maphill/wi.html
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Daksmack
Dodge Dakota
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4/12/2003
18:05:30
| RE: intercooler or injection
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For cooler intake charge ...just run the suction line from your a/c through you intake tube.
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brianman
Dodge Dakota
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4/13/2003
04:59:25
| RE: intercooler or injection
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just stack some bags of ice on the intake.
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j
GenIII
4/13/2003
14:43:08
| RE: intercooler or injection
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Yeah, switching to a carb induction system. Hmmmm... all I would have to do is find a single barrel carb that would match up to my s/c... maybe a Bing off a '74 Husqvarna 490 would work. But wait, then I will have fuel and air going thru the s/c. Is that ok? I guess I could remove the injectors that came with the s/c. I'll have to rework my fuel system too. I think I'll still need the computer to control timing won't I?
Naw, I think I'll just stick with the water injection.
2000 4.7 CC auto, clear corners, Magnaflow catback, Kenne Bell s/c.
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brianman
Dodge Dakota
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4/13/2003
14:57:28
| RE: intercooler or injection
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whatever
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kota on 20s
GenIII
4/13/2003
18:28:11
| RE: intercooler or injection
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LMAO!
~Eric
Single cam, non-VTEC
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