Synthetic or dino oil, whats better?

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Skyne Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/07/2003 13:09:54	Subject: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: I've been running castrol dino oil forever, heard it was the best, but on this forum i see many peeps say the fake stuff is better and it cleans? SO if this is true, Which is Truely the better oil? 318 2wd, M-1,K&N gen II, performace, homebrew freeflow exhaust.
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 2/07/2003 14:19:54	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Skyne, By "fake stuff", I assume you mean "synthetic". Synthetic Lubricants are fuel efficient, extended life lubricants manufactured and formulated from select basestocks and special purpose additives. In contrast to petroleum oils which are pumped from the earth and refined, synthetics are custom-designed in the laboratory. The properties of mineral oils (dino) tend to vary due to inconsistencies in the crude from which they are obtained. The properties and performance features of synthetics on the other hand, are very predictable due to their molecular uniformity, ... creating the ideal lubricant. Since their inception, manufacturers of Synthetic Motor Oils have sought to educate the public about the facts regarding synthetics, and the need for consumers to make their lubrication purchasing decisions based on quality rather than price. Though it sounds too good to be true, synthetics do reduce engine wear, improve gas mileage and increase horsepower. This is because synthetic oil molecules are superior in a number of ways to mineral-based oils. - higher resistance to heat (up to 600 deg. F) - Added lubricity (uniform diameter of synthetic oil polymers allows them to more easily slide over one another. The resultant reduction in friction shows up as more horsepower and torque and reduced internal engine wear) - Higher film strength (one of the major benefits of synthetics, since film strength is what keeps oil molecules from being pushed away from each other under pressure) - better "pour points", "flash points", "fire points" - "high temperature and high sheer viscosity - and so on and so forth ..... Bottom Line ... Everyone should be using Synthetic Lubricants (except Grandma who only drives to Church on Sunday's). However, the question of "which" synthetic manufacturer is up to you. ---------- Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
Dragon Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2003 08:35:53	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Ok, here's a strange question fer ya: Back in the '80s it was "understood" that you couldn't mix synthetic and dino oils, that it caused breakdown of the viscosity to the point you are running on practically water. They went so far as to say you had to flush the engine of all remnants of dino oil before adding synthetic or you'll sieze. So, is this true? Can you just go to an oil-changing place and say "use synthetic" without negative repercussions? Or do you have to have the engine steamed first? Same thing for the tranny. Can you just switch at the drop of a hat?
sandman Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2003 10:32:49	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Synthetics and regular oil are totaly compatable(sp) you can mixem until the cows come home and no damage is going to be done.It was common in Germany (Circa 1980's)for street racer to go 50/50 with the oil. Our Turbo charged engines realy needed it. We would mix 2 quarts of Mobil 10W30 with two quarts of straight 30W and drive the heck out of it for 3000 miles then change it. This kept cokeing done to a minium and kept cost down. Today I would not bother to mix. I would just buy 100% synthetic and change at 5000-7500 miles.
Ram 1500 Box Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/08/2003 20:10:28	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: There was a time when synthetics were in their infancy, and at that time it was a little shaky as to their usage. (would it damage my engine, seals, bearings and the like) But today there are MANY reputable synthetic oils on the market and the greatest advantage over dino based oils is it's ability to not break down by shear forces. (the pulling apart of the molecules at high forces) Synthetics are more stable, provide better protection in the long haul than any dino oil, simply by it's very design. BUT, with that said, you then have to confront the fact it is certainly more expensive than conventional oils, and this is where the trade-off occurs. I personally use ALL synthetics in my Dodge (Valvoline) from stem to stern, except for the transmission, which is synthetic ATF+4 supplied by the "good old boys" over at the local Dodge dealer. (and NEVER let ANYONE tell you to use ATF+3 in transmissions requiring ATF+4) Changing from conventional oil over to synthetic will in no way "hurt" anything, it will only help. It will in no way void ANY warrantee from Dodge. Will it cost me more to use sythetics? YES! Will I get better protection and even better milage over the use of conventional oils? Again, YES! The real question is how much you have in your pocketbook, and the ol' saying "you get what you pay for" certainly applies in this case. Have fun, D.M.Box - ASE Certified Master Technician
Rob454 Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/09/2003 03:05:06	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: I use regular Wal mart tech 2000 oil in my trucks ive been using them since 1991 on my vehicles My 89 GMC has 280 000 miles using that kind of oil the motor has NEVER been apart, the compression is still liek it was when I first got it with 20 000 miles on it. My wifes 1995 GMC Jimmy has the same oil in it.Tech 2000 also has a synthetic version. i started using it. i noticed NO difference in the way the truck runs as far as RPM, heat or anythign else. it runs the same My 2000 dakota has had the same oil in it since new. Again no problems with it either I jsut change the oil and filter every 3000 miles. Sure in the LONG run if you keep the truck for 15-20 years you may get a extra 15 000 miles by using synthetic but overall I could care less. i keep my trucks usually for about 100-120 000 miles then I sell them. I do the regular maintenance and all that cause I want them to run well. ive heard all abotu amsoil and all the other synthetics. About 97% of all street driven cars do not see more than 2500 RPMs at cruising speeds and if they do go past it to 5-6000 they are being raced to get to speed. If you have a 350 or 500 HP motor ok then I can see using synthetic oil but otherwise for a normal daily driver I think its worthless Rob
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 2/09/2003 09:26:51	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Dragon, Myth # 97) "you couldn't mix synthetic and dino oils, that it caused breakdown of the viscosity to the point you are running on practically water". Myth # 98) "you had to flush the engine of all remnants of dino oil before adding synthetic or you'll sieze". Never the case in either instance. For the Record: All motor oils (dino and synthetic) contain detergency additives, and always have. I recall my father was also concerned for the same reasons: #1) He was "country" and did not trust anything made by "Engineers" in a "Fancy Factory". #2) He was afraid that the Synthetic Oil would clean so well that his "gunked up" seals would begin to leak. #3) Etc., Etc., Etc. ---------- Years ago, standard oils left a lot more residue in engines than they do currently, and maybe the synthetics we had back then cleaned too well. Back then people thought that it was a problem, and that perhaps deposits that were cleaned away might be circulating throughout the engine (and clogging filters, etc.) due to the cleaning effect. That is no longer the case. ----- Now all the synthetic oil makers (except maybe Amsoil) say to just make the switch regardless of the mileage on your engine. Amsoil would prefer that you use their 15 minute engine flush when switching high mileage vehicles. ----- As to mixing oils: Do it at your own risk because I will not be held responsible. Everyone who is into "home brewing" oils needs to keep something in mind. The additives used in Group I, Group II, and Group III oils are different and don't work well together. In other words, an additive package tailored for a Group III synthetic is not going to work properly in Group II base oil. If you go mixing a Group II and Group III oil, you'll likely wind up with an oil that is inferior (from a performance standpoint) to either of the two oils you mixed. The same would hold true when mixing Group IV oils with anything else. ---------- Ram 1500 Box, ASE Certified Master Technician Not to disrespect you ... or Valvoline ... but Valvoline does not manufacture a 100% TRUE Synthetic. They use Group III (hydrocracked) base stock, and in some cases a Group II base stock. Valvoline says their Max-Life is a Group III oil when it is actually a Group II. It is made from a Group II base stock just as the regular Valvoline oil is. It has basically the same additive package as the regular Valvoline except for the small amount of Moly Disulfide added to it. It also has around 9% ester base added to it for it's seal conditioning factors. IMOHO (In my own humble opinion), there are better "On-The-Shelf" oils available. I know a lot of mechanics are using Valvoline, and Valvoline's new advertising is "... the #1 oil used by top mechanics in their own cars", ... (I should nbot touch that one but I think it is because they are "giving" the stuff away). Again IMOHO. ---------- A TRUE synthetic uses either the Group IV or Group IV base stock, or a mix of the two. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of the synthetics use all of just one, they mix both of them. Group VI is PAOs (Polyalfaolefins) while Group V is the esters. By PAO's tend to shrink seals, while esters will swell seals. So to counter this effect, the oil companies mix these two base stocks, which along with modern additives, have made oils neutral to seal swell or shrinkage. ----- Rob 454 and To Everyone, If you are happy with the motor oil and other lubricants that you currently use, I am not trying to convince you to switch. I am just laying the facts out on the line. Some of us like Coke and some of us prefer Pepsi. I am simply here offering information, answering questions to the best of my ability, and offering my assistance. Thank You, Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
Ram 1500 Box Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/09/2003 12:50:33	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: The MSDS tells all. I'm aware Valvoline's SynPower starts it's life with Group III Hydrotreated heavy paraffinic distillate, but it is also listed as a synthetic lubricating oil containing zink and esters just as Amsoil does. The one departure is that also in the MSDS, Amsoil's product is known to be and listed as an acute health risk, and the other leading products do not fall in such a catagory. I have no disrespect for you or your company's product, but flash points fall within the same region (around 440-450 degrees) and the protection qualities also mirror each other. None of the products you spoke of in your post (concerning the Ashland company) make claims to be 100% synthetic base stock and the Max-Life product makes no claims to being synthetic in any sort or manner. I wish you the best in your sales venture, D.M.Box - ASE Certified Master Technician
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 2/09/2003 19:49:24	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Ram 1500 Box First, Welcome, always good to have a tech on this site. ----- Second, I was simply trying to clarify (correct) your comment of: "I personally use ALL synthetics in my Dodge (Valvoline) from stem to stern", by stating that Valvoline was Group II and Group III. -------- The MSDS only lists what the law requires it to list, and there may be more than one way to legally put things down on the MSDS. ----- Amsoil's products are quite different from most of their competition... ----- You can learn a few things from the MSDS but never the whole story. ----- Valvoline products are good, but can probably be beat in any of their price ranges by other OTC oils and Lubes. Yes, if you use nothing but Valvoline products your machinery will last a long time. However, other brands might give longer engine life and lower costs ...... Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
sandman Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/09/2003 22:40:31	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Yes, I agree that mixing oils is not a good thing to do due to additive package incompatability. When we were doing this in the 1980's we ( young punk kids) did not know much about oil or additive packages. What we knew was that Syntheitcs were really expensive and that dino oil coked up our turbos on the autobahn. So the 50/50 blend was our way of trying to get benifits of synthetics without breaking the bank. We thought that as long as we used the same brand for both synthetic and dino we would be fine. This is why I did not recomend the practice in the end of my post. While I never had any problems doing this I understand more about the chemistry of oil additive now then I did as a young Tech. So I would just as soon leave my oil alone and let it do it's job!!! The point of my post was to let people know that their is no incompatability issue with the oil but the additive packages might not work well together. So if you are driveing from Texas to Florida and need to add a quart and can not find synthetic it is ok to top off with what you can find at the gas station!!!!
dakinblack Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/10/2003 05:39:45	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: I have been interested in switching to synthetic oil, a co-worker was trying to get me to switch to conklin oil.....ever hear of it? he claims it is a extended drain oil, but from what i can find in the archives that may not be a good idea with oil containing molybdednum (sp). can anyone enlighten me on the moly?? Thanks
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 2/10/2003 06:42:52	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: dakinblack, Conklin. I have seen them around but are a scarce breed. They do contain moly, and recommend a 15,000 mile drain intervel. I have no idea whether the base oil is a group II, III, or IV; what additive and additive levels, nor what type of moly they use. I have never seen any oil analysis with this oil so IMHO, if someone was to use this oil, I would not start out with a 15,000 mile drain. I would like to see an analysis one day as for the price they are charging. They are priced "up there" with the most premium of oils. Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
Texas Todd Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/10/2003 08:32:14	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: I had to chime in here, well I didn't have to, but, when Ram 1500 Box said: ' I personally use ALL synthetics in my Dodge (Valvoline) from stem to stern, except for the transmission,' I just had to chuckle a bit-ALL synthetics, but as Steve pointed out, it's not a true synthetic at all, probably good oil though. I can remember before they really made any 'true synthetics', I only used 'Valvoline Racing'.
Ram 1500 Box Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/10/2003 21:58:18	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Okay folks, let's put one thing to rest. I use ALL synthetics available from Valvoline, (as opposed to the non-synthetic equivalent) stem to stern. It has been interesting to follow along as people read in "all Valvoline is ALL synthetic" which I didn't say. It is presumptuous to think you have to "correct" the posting. Obviously, if you feel you need to chuckle, have at it...but what started in this thread, which was the question "should I use synthetic oils in my vehicle" (which I whole heartedly agreed with) has now turned to "no other oil BUT MINE is synthetic, and my daddy can beat up your daddy..." I understand that AMSOil has a vested interest in this site, and understand any bias towards their product, but there are certainly MANY other synthetic products on the market that offer exceptional protection, irregardless of the bias to sell this specific product name or that. If you feel the need to purchase AMSOil, go for it. I prefer to stay away from their product. Lets also set another untrue claim to rest concerning AMSOil's motor oil has "higher resistance to heat (up to 600 deg. F)" The very claims by AMSOil themselves, in their Federally mandated Material Data Sheets, places it's flash point (the point when it will burst into flames) is certainly well below this stated claim of "up to 600 deg F." (more along the line of 440-450 deg F.) Actually there are many name brands that match this crucial performace standard, and when matched grade to grade AMSOil performed NO better than Mobil1's, Castrol's, Penzoil's or Valvoline's synthetic equivalent. (within just a few deg F.) Let's dispence with this childish need to make one product better than someone elses, even to the point of lying, and agree that sythetics are simply better than it's non-synthetic counterparts.
Don Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/10/2003 22:24:57	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: I never saw the amsoil guy say amsoil is or was best. He said, and i quote, synthetic oil molecules are superior in a number of ways to mineral-based oils. - higher resistance to heat (up to 600 deg. F). See, nowhere did he say amsoil. He said up to 600 degrees. Up to, see. And he was talking synthetics in general I think, and maybe not just motor oil. P.S. Ram1500, you started it by saying that Valvoline was synthetic, and it ain't. So why should we listen to you. Yea, let's just stick with the topic for once and not flame. OK Ram1500 ?
Ram 1500 Box Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/10/2003 22:32:04	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Don, maybe you should re-read what I posted.
Ram 1500 Box Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/10/2003 22:35:08	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: [posted by Don] P.S. Ram1500, you started it by saying that Valvoline was synthetic, and it ain't. (retain yourself an attorney and have him call up Valvoline, or any other company claiming their oil is synthetic, maybe you can make your first million from their false advertising)
Don Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/11/2003 04:31:39	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Ram1500, Sorry, Valvoline synthetic oil uses a group 3 base oil, so it's not really synthetic, but is a refined petroleum mineral oil (dino), and there is no comparing it to group 4 and 5 real synthetics. Composition and Information for Valvoline below. Durablend: Ingredient(s) CAS Number % (by weight) - HEAVY PARAFFINIC PETROLEUM DISTILLATES 64742-54-7 54.0- 64.0, SOLVENT-DEWAXED HEAVY PARAFFINIC PETROLEUM D 64742-65-0 10.0- 20.0, ZINC COMPOUNDS 68649-42-3 1.0- 1.0 Synpower: Ingredient(s) CAS Number % (by weight) - HYDROTREATED HEAVY PARAFFINIC DISTILLATE (64742-54-7 53.0- 63.0, ZINC COMPOUNDS 0.8- 1.6 - Through a court ruling and for marketing reasons, hydro group 3 are able to be labeled as "synthetic", but they are not, and they still are not near as good as a group 4 or 5 real synthetics. European versions of the same group 3 oils (only available over seas), are labeled Semi-Syn over there which is still an error, but closer to the truth. The EU, due to the tough EU label laws won't let them lie, and they must label it Semi-Syn. I wish we had tougher laws here and truth in advertising and labeling. I am not saying Valvoline is a bad oil, just not a real synthetic. Valvoline Company Information: 1-859-357-7206. Sincerely and in friendship to another greaser, Don, ST (Shade Tree) Master Technician. Million $ ain't enough for me Ram1500, I've already got a couple of those. My son-in-law is a lawyer, dont need one. Former Valvoline Employee, RETIRED. LOL
Ram 1500 Box Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 2/12/2003 07:20:27	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Don, while I understand you may feel a Group IV or V, in your book, are the only base stocks that classify as "REAL synthetic" let's take a look at the definition of what "synthetic" really is. [Merriam Webster's definition] Main Entry: syn·the·sis Pronunciation: 'sin(t)-th&-s&s Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural syn·the·ses /-"sEz/ Etymology: Greek, from syntithenai to put together, from syn- + tithenai to put, place -- more at DO Date: 1589 1 a : the composition or combination of parts or elements so as to form a whole b : the production of a substance by the union of chemical elements, groups, or simpler compounds or by the degradation of a complex compound c : the combining of often diverse conceptions into a coherent whole; also : the complex so formed Now, by the definition of what a "synthesized" product may be, any product containing various base materials DO qualify as a synthisized product, or better said, "synthetic." Ester base stock generally starts as a vegetable oil, rather than a mineral oil, due to the properties of the molecule. That too, is not a pure synthetic at it's base. Whether I start with vegetable or mineral oil, when I modify it's base with other base blends, that by definition becomes "synthetic." Ashland as well as various other companies, including Mobil, Chevron and other leading brands, add in ester base and PAO base modifyers to create a better lubricant from their proprietary "synthetic" blends.(re-read the definition of what synthesis is above)
AmsoilSponsor DakotaEnthusiast 7/14/2003 10:08:54	American - Synthetic - Oil = Amsoil IP: Logged Message: Follow-Up Information: ---------------------- THE ROLE OF MOTOR OIL Before we can discuss what makes a good motor oil, it helps to understand what role motor oil actually plays in the performance of an engine. While motor oils serve a variety of functions, they are primarily necessary to lubricate and to cool the engine. When the engine is at rest, the motor oil sits in the bottom of the engine block in what is called the oil pan. Upon start-up, an oil pump feeds oil from the pan to the oil distribution system by means of a network of passages, tubes, grooves and holes leading to the engine bearings and other surfaces needing pressurized oil for lubrication. Other parts, like the overhead valve system, receive a carefully controlled quantity of non-pressurized oil through splashing or spray. In addition to lubricating and cooling engine parts, motor oil must allow easy starting, protect the engine from corrosion and oxidation, keep the engine clean, form a tight seal between piston rings and cylinder walls and help the engine use fuel efficiently. In days gone by motor oil was made from the throwaway byproducts of a barrel of crude oil after everything useful was taken from it. In those early days the filter, if you had one at all, was a by-pass type, filtering only a small percentage of the oil. In some instance the filter was little more than a screen and the oil was changed every five hundred or thousand miles. (Some of us recall grandpa's stories of tires needing to be changed on every trip to town, the idea of longevity being somewhat foreign back then.) As cars and their engines became more sophisticated, so too the requirements of a lubricant became increasingly demanding. In the 1960's jet fighter pilots and their mechanics were becoming aware of the advantages of synthetic oils, and a few of them experimented with the notion of synthetic lubrication for automobiles. One of these pilots, Lt. Colonel Albert J. Amatuzio, went further than the haphazard experiments of his peers. His ten year quest resulted in the development of AMSOIL, the first automotive synthetic motor oil to exceed the certification requirements of the American Petroleum Institute (API). SYNTHETIC VS. CONVENTIONAL PETROLEUM Conventional lubricants are refined from crude oil which has thousands of types of molecules. Refining is a process of physically separating the impurities from the oil and further separating the light and heavy components. Because refining separates products by weight, it groups molecules of similar weight and dissimilar structure. The result is a lubricant with a wide assortment of molecules. Some of the substances in crude oil are detrimental to lubrication. Paraffins, for example, are a common conventional oil contaminant that causes motor oil to thicken in cold temperatures. Synthetic motor oils are made from pure chemicals, not refined crude. Their components are chemically reacted to produce finished products with pre-designed performance characteristics. Because of their molecular uniformity, they excel in reducing friction, which improves fuel efficiency, controls heat and reduces wear. This molecular uniformity also helps synthetics resist thinning in hot temperatures and thickening in cold. -------------------------------------------------- Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of www.DodgeDakotas.com AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants, Filtration, and Truck Care Products
chrisS Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 7/15/2003 06:27:33	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Just found Amsoil 5W30 at my local Napa Auto Parts for $5.49 a quart. I currently use Mobil 1 SuperSyn 5W30. I just want to give Amsoil a try and see how my engine runs and responds to it. What do you think about this? My conservative plan is to run Amsoil for 7,500 miles and then do an analysis. See how far I can push it. I've ran Mobil 1 5W30 for the life of the truck and it has aprox. 92 K on it. I've changed out the Mobil 1 every 3K miles like a wasteful dopehead until I started reading and edu-ma-cating myself. heh heh
Dex Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/07/2003 14:19:18	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: Holy $hit- They have been lying to us. I just saw my mechanic cousin and we had a few beers and played some pool. We started talking about oils. He told me some oils called Group 3 oils are are being sold to us as TRUE synthetics but they are FAKE synthetics. Valvoline (Pathetic) Synthetic, Havoline (Pathetic) Synthetic, Pennzoil (Pathetic) Synthetic, OuakerState (Pathetic)Synthetic, and Castrol (Pathetic) Syntec are all FAKE. Is this the equivalant of a non-alcoholic beer?
Durango Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 8/07/2003 14:55:24	RE: Synthetic or dino oil, whats better? IP: Logged Message: have a sip and find out
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