Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update

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.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/05/2002 13:41:52	Subject: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: For those that were involved in the "What does it take to run 13's??" post, this is a preliminary glimpse. The limiter is gone, whatever was causing it. The engine feels "lighter" like I shaved weight off the flywheel. It just winds up so much quicker, and yet, it doesn't feel like I gained much more torque. Which is fine, i guess. Now, of course this is all based on a few runs from the bottom of 2nd gear to the top of 3rd gear on some surface streets. And when I hit 90 mph on a 4 lane frontage road, things start to get obvious. heh. It definitely feels like I need to be shifting at 5500 rpm ANYWAY, but at least there's not a limiter at that rpm that kills the motor. Currently it seems like a modded intake manifold and some new cams will make things even better. Maybe some headers and y-pipes..... Anyhow, my work schedule is looking like I won't make the dyno before next Saturday, so I'll have good solid data on it then, but the reconfigured fuel curve seems to be helping thigns out.
Canucker Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/05/2002 14:46:47	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: good to hear ... I'm jealous 8-)
.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/05/2002 14:59:41	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: I forget.... do you have a flash yet, Canucker?
Canucker Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/05/2002 16:10:34	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: no I don't :( still debating what to do about it .. not sure if I should hold out for a plug and play system (FAST)? or not ... I mean $400 or whatever it is is a LOT of CDN $$ .. that's like $650 +shipping +duty +tax!!! it sux! a good rule of thumb is anything ordered from the states will be double the cost in CDN dollars once you're done with exchange and crap. damn dollar .. grumble grumble. Plus if I ever go forced induction, I'd have to send it back and pay the extra $150 ($250 CDN) cause I'd want a 2BAR table put in there. ... that's already $1000 or so! I've also been debating a stand alone system .. but that just opens up a whole new can of worms.
.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/05/2002 16:37:07	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Yep.... you're figuring out my saga. If I have some more a/f issues, the cheapest price i've found on a Roe COntroller is $380. That makes $450 plus $380 and that's $830 to STILL not have full & accurate control over the air & fuel. If I go forced in a year or so, then I will need to have the timing pulled back out of it and the fuel corrected a little..... that's another $150 to Leach. Now we're clean up to almost $1000. Hmmm..... The FAST system (according to Marty) may end up being pretty damn pricey for the 4.7 trucks, though. Like over $3000 or something. Lots of extra sensors and wiring... We'll just have to see.
Canucker Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/05/2002 18:08:26	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: yup .. we'll just wait and see. I'm out of commission until summer anyhow... snow makes it tough for the track to open, and it really sucks working on stuff in the snow without a garage!
MikeD R/T 12/05/2002 18:25:36	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Alex. I'm having issues w/ my truck running too lean with my Kenne Bell flash considering I added heads, cam, injectors & bigger exhaust after the flash. I was thinking about sending it to B&G but then I read about that FAST system and was getting excited...then I saw the price and was like holy sh!t. Scratch the FAST idea...sounds great but thats almost the price of a S/C!! The B&G flash looks like a small dent in the pocket compared to the FAST system! ~Mike~ Get In...Sit Down...Shutup...& Hangon
.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/05/2002 18:45:11	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: From Marty's conversation with me on the phone the other day.... "Oh yeah, absolutely..... once i get Leach to hit the box on ANY truck, I put a Roe Controller on it to fine tune the thing. Yeah, it's a band-aid fix, but i never have to send the box back a second time." More juice: "Alex, let me tell you... once you drive a truck on the FAST system at the track, you'll never be able to do without it again. You can make a run, come back, open up the laptop, tweak a little, make another run, and so on. Once you get it dialed, you're done...." Just makes you wish you could win the damn lottery.
graphiteRT R/T 12/05/2002 20:34:15	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Wow, there are some flat out scarey approaches to this computer tweaking going on here. When Marty has to slap a Roe on top of a flash, that says the flash is out to lunch to start with. That's not good. FAST system is excellent for tweaking A/F and spark if you just like to tweak or if you plan to contiually mod. But if you've got a combo bolted on your truck and you're done fooling with it, the "tune" really only needs to be set once and you're done unless and until you change the combo or add parts. That makes the price of admission($3K+) tough to stomach for most. Another downfall of the FAST is that you still can't change shift points, so you still have to pony up for that. What I would like to know, and you can call this a marketing study, is how many people would be interested in a PCM flash that is truly custom tweaked to a given set of mods, especially if it's packaged around some of the more popular cam options offered by folks like Marty at KRC? IOW, a "package" would consist of a set of mods like headers, cam, M1, TB, CAI and a ~$400 flash put on top of that which is optimized for that particular set of componenets. As long as you stick with the suggested recipe, you can be assured your custom flash is truly tuned for your set of mods rather than this generic flash or trial and error stuff that is going on now. Different flashes tuned around different pre-determined mod "packages". Would this appeal to you guys? Keep in mind the importance of sticking to the mod package before you say one way or the other. Particularly when it comes to the cam grind, if you try to go it alone and pick your own, the flash would no longer be a best fit for your setup. Go with a different TB or header type, same deal, you lose the optimization(partly intentional play on KB's marketing bit). Please post up your thoughts on this. It may have a direct impact on some future offerings in this area. Bob '01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s Soon: Viper 4 wheel discs
MikeD R/T 12/05/2002 21:19:13	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Thats exactly what I was thinking when I was talking to Dave at B&G when he says he can't customize the flash to get the most out of my big heads and cam. I thought that kinda sucked there's just pre-set flashes, sure the M-1 flash may be aggressive but I'm sure it wouldn't be as aggressive as a custom flash. It would be nice to send in your pcm and have someone punch in the specs from looking at your list of mods not just a preset flash. I think the FAST system isn't like the power programmer where U just hook it up to the computer, redo certain specs then unplug it, I think it comes w/ an ECU that bolts to the firewall and you hook that ECU to the laptop and change settings so its constantly working. But 3K is too high for me. ~Mike~ Get In...Sit Down...Shutup...& Hangon
.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/05/2002 21:20:54	Okay Check this book: IP: Logged Message: Well, it sounds like a dandy proposition.... the whole "purchase a package" concept. To offer a bit more background on the "out to lunch" flash process, I have dealt with Tom Fox at Mike Leach's shop. Tom's primary responsibility is NOT flashing PCM's. He is an employee of Positive Performance Exhaust and PCM's is a side job. I have never been able to completely verify it, but it appears that Tom and maybe a few others (Ron Zimmer, etc) were instrumental in writing the original software for the Dakota, the Jeep and the Ram motors directly for DC or Mopar or whoever. These same guys would have been the ones writing the software for a Mopar Performance Computer, if one had been able to pass EPA standards. But since they couldn't get the approval of the Federal sniff teams, and the resulting power output wasn't significant enough while burning clean, that PCM was never released. My impression is that Leach/Fox is currently offering what WOULD have been the Mopar Performance computer, but it's all "under the table." Your ability to pass your local emissions test is in your own hands. Apparently there are more than 15 contractors and no two PCMs are equal. If they are, it's purely coincidence. The total timing varies from box to box as does the fuel curve and top speed limiter. It's just a matter of the contractor meeting a few parameters, apparently. Apparently Tom has the entire index of PCM part numbers that have been produced by Mother Mopar's software contractors. Once you call Tom, he checks his index to see that he has access to your PCM's serial number and thus your codes. They don't have the ability to flash anything beyond the 2000 boxes for any motor. Apparently OBD 2 got pretty tight in the "chastity belt" department after 2000. Anyhow, once Tom accesses the index and verifies that he can "hit your box," you send it to him and he has to install it in Mike Leach's wife's Durango (usually this goes down on Tuesdays if at all possible). The only way to access the guts of the PCM is to flash it thru the OBD2 port under the steering column. He also does not have the capability to see what your current program looks like. It is merely a matter of downloading a few commands on a few boards and hoping for the best. Apparently there are 5 or 6 different "Leach Flashes" that Tom has worked out. I had bad luck with the "DR" flash as my air/fuel ratio was approx. 8.8:1 at 5500 rpm. Kinda fat. I sent it back and now have the "D3" flash..... I have yet to get back to the dyno. According to Marty, the flexibility that Tom has to reprogram the Mopar software is of the "blunt instrument" nature at best. It's a matter of increasing things by percentages here & percentages there. I am personally not worried about shift points, as I drive a 4.7 5-spd. I am interested in forced induction and perhaps WITHOUT an FMU. What if you could just control the injectors in such a manner as to eliminate some underhood plumbing? I'm not sure what B&G's flash will do (I know they dont' think the 4.7 is worth the flash), but i know that ASE actually cuts open your box and inserts a new chip into the potting. Kinda crude.... So, in the end, the flexibility of the FAST system seems appealing to someone who might want to eventually throw a supercharger or a turbo system onto a heap of parts that's already running high 13's (or mid 14's in my case).... I think there are a lot of trucks right now that have about half a second or greater left to shave off in the 1/4 mile, but the tuning required to do so is almost impossible to achieve. There are only 4 companies in the country with any semblance of ability to alter the factory programming through their out-to-lunch flashes. The price of the FAST system seems pretty damn astronomical and pretty damn out of reach unless you're Scott Quaranta and you have cubic dollars available to extract that last little ounce. You are correct that $3000 is a bit much to ask to tune in the combo for one time and then leave it. But imagine the ability to run some Ron Merx-inspired 10's, and yet lean the motor out on the highway far enough to see 26 mpg on the way home. Even with a 4.56 rear end...... Is that even possible? As for "plug & play" packages that come with a custom flash.... I'd like to create my own package and then have whomever create a flash based on that specific package. If I had my way, they could send me a disk with that flash, and I could download it from my own PCM. I would simly place a call, and maybe the person on the other end of the line could even e-mail me the changes that i needed. But do you really really really want to corner the market on forced induction and huge cams and all this stuff??? Really Really??? Here is a tip: Figure out a system that converts the Dakota/Ram/Jeep engine management system to a pure Mass Air system. Look at the Mustangs that are running twin turbo's and scoring hi 9-sec ET's, while still serve as daily drivers. Think I'm smokin' the good stuff? Check out January's Popular Hot Rodding. Christina Eldert was one of two girls who showed up at the Atlanta Fun Ford weekend and competed in true street. You tech in, they shut your hood, you go for a chaperoned 30 mile drive on the surface streets, and then immediately make 3 back to back to back 1/4 mi runs without so much as tapping your fingers on that hood latch. He who averages the three fastest runs wins. Well, this past summer, it was a she. In the dead heat of our Georgia summer, Christina ripped off a series of 10.10's. A basically stock 4.6 mod motor, twin turbos, a big fuel pump, big injectors and a MASS AIR ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM. It totally reads everything about the air mass that's coming in to the motor and the computer control system is able to respond accordingly. All you have to do is give it the proper tools to do so (injectors & a pump). If you can convert the DC engine line-up to a true Mass Air system, and not the Kenne-Bell piggy back system that they wont' sell separately anyhow, then you will be able to rake in a butt-load of cash money in exchange for your wisdom. Okay.... sorry for the book. But you asked....
graphiteRT R/T 12/05/2002 22:28:56	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: alex, either you've made some pretty stretched assumptions, or someone out there is telling fairy tales. Leach/Fox/Zimmer had/have nothing to do with writing base code for DCX controllers at any point in the past or present. That stuff is handled in-house and the code is tightly controlled. Positive Performance has neither the resources, nor the code access to be developing any CARB compliant(which effectively makes it EPA compliant, BTW) DCX controllers. They had, until recently, an older version of the programmer and a set of base tables. Mopar Performance, as a subsidiary of DCX, developed their own stuff. I'm not understanding your Mustang example. It's a lighter car altogether, running a twin turbo and they have tools to tune their ECMs. We run speed density systems. It's a mistake to think that that difference is the limiting factor. The FAST system is speed density based and it is powering plenty of cars out there today that are blindingly quick. That's not the problem. The problem has been access to tuning tools. As long as you pick a cam that maintains at least 12" of vacuum, the speed density setup will be just fine. The FAST system is not a requirement to make a S/C or turbo run properly on a Dodge. Not anymore. Neither are "band-aid" boxes, aux injectors or any of this other kludged crap. That's why I'm asking what the interest and willingness is to follow a pre-set "recipe" of mods. Due to the limited availability of people who can do custom flashes, the focus has to be on a limited set of custom tuned PCMs due to the time and resources it takes to develop each individual one. This won't come from either B&G or Leach because neither has the dyno access or appears willing to invest the time and money to do it. It's no longer a secret that DCX has released code into the aftermarket to a select few companies to develop custom flashes, but it will take a very, very long time, if ever, before you will see the custom dyno tuning possibilities the GM and Ford guys have now. That's why if you choose to go down the path of picking your own parts and attempting to tune, the FAST will remain your only option, because sending a PCM back and forth across the country will not get it done. You'll still likely end up with a final A/F and spark setup that is less than ideal for your setup. So for the time being it looks like the options for the "pick your own parts" approach is a $400 flash followed with a $450 Roe controller and you still don't have an optimal setup. Either that or a $3k FAST system. So would you be willing to give up that flexibility in order to get a better matched combo that will, in all likelihood, be faster overall when it's all said and done?? Bob '01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s Soon: Viper 4 wheel discs
Art Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 01:23:45	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: I would love to see a package for the 4.7,i:e good streetable cams,better flowing heads,Throttle body,intake,headers and a flash to top it all off,but I dont see anything of value except maybe cams out there for the 4.7.I know their are more mods out there for the 4.7 but like GraphiteRT states nothing is matched and no for sure flash that will work well with what you have.
Duner Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 01:39:34	Code...... IP: Logged Message: The packaging of the "hard" parts is the easy part. What hurts the effort is DCX's practice of continually changing the code in the PCMs from year to year. You can figure out and have a package of parts and a flash that works just great for a single year.... then not be able to duplicate the flash for a different year. I'd love to have the FAST system on my truck.... but I'm far too "economically challenged" for it!
.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 07:35:30	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Bob, On the first question..... it's starting to look like a combination of Fairy Tales and Stretched Assumptions. But some of those Fairy Tales have been delivered to me by Tom Fox and Marty. Guess i need to start retaining more salt grains. The Mass Air Example is simply pointing out that those guys have computers that "see" the boost that's being introduced into the system. And the computer is able to react much more accurately and sensitively to the changing conditions of summer heat, rainy day humidity, arid Phoenix weather, etc. It is very adaptable. The Speed Density systems that we have (from what I can tell) don't do much except read the pressure in the manifold and then reference some table and give a solution to the rest of the systems. Once you mess with the tables (ie a flash) you begin to unleash hidden power potential, but the end result still misses the mark by (more than likely) a significant amount. Another tune-ability example that I was envious over: This really has nothing to do with the speed-density/mass air point, but I have been dyno'ng at Team Ford in Marietta, Ga. I know.... what a cesspool, but three pulls is $65. And I can do it during my lunch hour. But the point here is that they are the largest dealer of Saleen Mustangs in the nation. There was a new GT on the rack that had just received deeper gears and a few other tweaks, and the owner was not pleased with his performance out of the hole on slicks. So, the tech reached up under the dash, pulled whichever chip out of the ECU, and went into "the office" to call up some guru somewhere. That guru gave him some numbers, the tech downloaded those into the chip, strapped it back in, and the customer was on the dyno right after me. After a 5 minute phone call, the guy had 23 more hp and 14 more ft-lb of torque. The only down time was what it took to walk inside and make a phone call. What will I have to spend to get THAT degree of flexibility? $3000? So far..... yep. Now.... as for your marketing study, I think that if you can develop a flash that is dead-on dialed in to a certain combo of parts, and you are able to make the most power on 93 octane pump gas possible from this combo and flash, you will be making money. But, it can't be much more than $450. We can already get close-but-not-quite for $450. To be competitive, that $450 that you would be charging would also have to be part of the actual package of "hard parts" such as cams, heads, headers, etc..... Don't take this as incendiary, but you're also going to have to show that this one-time flash is (substantially) faster than a stack of band-aids.
CThomp Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 08:02:43	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Isn't being able to tune a PCM to adjust for mods already available through such devices as the Unichip and the Hyperspeed? The unichip has to be tuned on a dyno but from what I understand the Hyperspeed can be tuned on a laptop.
.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 08:23:42	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Do UniChip and Hyperspeed have a 4.7L 5-spd compatible product? What does it cost?
Texas Todd Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 08:45:54	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Awesome, constructive discussion guys, this is why I still come to this site. 01, QC, 4.7, 5spd manual-wouldn't have anything else!, HO cams, ported 68mm TB, no belt fan, etc.
CThomp Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 08:46:56	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Both have compatible products from what I understand. With the unichip you have to find a local dealer and go to them so the can tune the chip for your application. Hyperspeed makes a compatible product for just about any fuel injected vehicle. Bernd tested one of these out on his V6 and got 19rwhp from it. I'm sure it'd be worth more on a 4.7L. He had to custom wire it though. He was going to release a version of it that was "plug and play" but could still be tuned via laptop. All of this obviously needs more research which I don't have the time to do. There is a Unichip dealer down the road from me in Naples, Fl. I might have to give them a call. Anyhow...these are just ideas.
.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 08:59:34	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Well, "just ideas" is what it's all about. We need the flexibility to tune our own combo's without spending $3000 or dealing with 3 days downtime. Any way to expand that list of vendors and products will do nothing but cause more competition between the vendors. And that will decrease prices and increase performance options.
CThomp Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 09:29:32	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Exactly. All we need now is a "plug n play" device such as the Hyperspeed that can be tuned with a palm pilot or somethin like that. This would make life much easier. I'll give that speed shop in Naples a call tonight to enquire about the Unichip. I'll see if I can't get some prices. I'm sure someone out there has one on a 4.7L by now.
graphiteRT R/T 12/06/2002 11:21:51	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Duner-- You're right. DCX didn't make the effort any simpler with the way the code is in a nearly constant stage of change. There are things going on with my '01 that are not consistent with earlier models. Frankly, won't be able to figure out where all the land mines are until we work with it for awhile. Alex-- Again, the issue is not whether a speed density system can cut the mustard, because I know it can. The routines within the PCM look at far more than the MAP signal, though I would call that one of the more important parameters that it bases settings on. One of the test mules in this project is a NA 408 stroker mounted in a Durango. By the end of a day of tweaking the PCM, it put down 400 rwhp and was clean enough to pass a sniffer test. That is but one example. You're still comparing a $400 flash coupled with a $450 Roe controller and I'd be willing to be money without even seeing it that your wideband read A/F curve is less than optimal on the dyno when you're done. Not only that, but the PCM will be constantly fighting that add-on box the whole way via the adaptive logic. I wouldn't get too far ahead of yourself with the Ford examples. You have to keep in mind the knowledge base for tuning is very deep in that camp. They've had the tools and have been doing it for years. This effort hasn't even really got off the ground and Ron Zimmer is the ONLY guy I would credit with having much tuning experience/effort at all with these computers at this point besides maybe a few race teams with ties to Mopar Performance. That's about to change, but the results won't be obvious overnight. Lastly, you need to differentiate between tuning companies. There are the mainstream deals like Hypertech, ASE, etc. who will offer things like the PPIII with less than optimal settings because they market to street driven vehicles. They cannot and will not offer something wild that modifies all parts of the PCM simply because they sell product specifically intended for street use and the EPA would shut them down otherwise. The other camp includes some of these Ford tuners you're talking about. They don't advertise the service much and their work is intended for off-road use only. We're getting a bit off the earlier question. How many would be willing to buy a pre-set package that included the custom PCM? If the mindset is that people want to pick their own individual parts and then hope for the best when it comes to the computer, there's not much help available short of going to the FAST for serious tuning. Bob '01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s Soon: Viper 4 wheel discs
dak owner Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 11:33:50	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Just a comment in regards to how protective DCX is about their code: I was, about three months ago, privvy enough to get my hands an the official DCX EDT, being, Engineering Diagnostic Tool. I spent about 4-5 hours with this thing, scanning every page of every menu and it's very obvious that even their own engineers, except programmers, have no access to source code or tables. It was very apparant that if you didn't know the hex equivalent of the parameter you wanted to alter that all you could do is screw something up. It's no wonder that no one has been able to truly crack open the PCM to see how to modify the code.
Canucker Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 11:51:56	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Holy Posts Batman!!! This is the kind of discussion I'm after! I agree with you 100% alex & Duner. A mass air conversion is the ultimate answer because it lets the computer know exactly how much air is entering the engine and at what temp, then it can advance the timing and fuel as required... I've been searching high and low for one, but to no avail. I asked Marty and he also said he hadn't heard of one. What the speed density system does is reads the MAP, the IAT and RPM, then assumes a set volumetric efficiency of the engine, and adds fuel based on that. .. that's the BIGGEST downfall of the S/D method.. the VE tables are set. .. whereas with mass air, your computer will know there's more air coming in cause it measures it. Think about it .. do any mods you do really alter the MAP signal or IAT or RPM significantly??? (besides forced induction) .. sure, Cold Air intakes lower the read IAT .. whoptydoo .. the IAT is a pretty small factor of the equation... big cams don't do much to the MAP signal at WOT because the MAP reads zero anyhow! .. same with porting the heads, adding headers etc etc ... the computer doesn't know you changed things and the engine is getting more air .. the result: same amount of fuel being dumped in .. now you're running lean. ... and then comes the issue of forced induction .. MAP will read zero at part throttle and 5psi ... this isn't even remotely close to WOT N/A conditions. You could go with a 2BAR map sensor I guess .. then you have to reflash again anyhow! .. man, what a headache. I'm actually really pissed at DC or DCX or mopar or Dodge or whatever they call themselves these days that they're still usind S/D! wtf... no one else is really... that and there's no knock sensors in our engine? whats up with that .. but that's a whole different issue. All flashes are just a shot in the dark trying to recalibrate that VE table ... if he gets it right, then you're lucky. But if you make further changes .. then you're right back where you started! you really need a dyno or some kind of feedback to tune properly. That's where a Plug'n'Play system comes in .. it allows you to tune the VE table as you see fit. It allows you to be the MAF sensor basically. The biggest downside about the FAST is you still have to get your box flashed to up the speed limiter. BUT ... all you really need is fuel and spark right??? you _could_ play with the fuel via a ROE controller and a fuel pressure regulator and injector sizes... but how do you adjust spark??? I haven't found anything out there that does anything but retard spark under boost. As far as the 'package' deal ... it'll never fly. For reasons Duner said (it'll never work the same on every truck, and you'll end up pissing people off who will, in turn, bad mouth your 'package'), but also because no one person is the same and is going to want the same package .. just look at the HO 'package' for example .. half the people just go with the cams, half go for both and the other half don't even bother... there'll be too many combinations to have a well tuned flash for each. and when people settle on which 'package' they want, they'll inevitably feel like they're making a compromise in some way. I hope CThomp is right about the unichip and hyperspeed ... I'll try and do some net surfing/research today at 'work' and see what I can find out. sorry for the book!
.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 11:56:31	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: I'm done altering your marketing ideas..... those are just a few things I've considered on my own. Much of it is based on heresay and info I've gleaned from the internet. And we all know about the internet. The rest of it is gleaned from conversations with Duner, Marty, Tom Fox, and others..... My problem is that I can't afford to throw down in one huge chunk for all the parts I want right now. Otherwise my wideband A/F curve would be smack-dead-on. So until I get the whole combo in place, I need to have the computer gradually adjusted to compensate for each add-on. That's my concern over flexibility, but I can't see buying a FAST system to compensate for some cams, injectors, pistons, and headers. However, i am also saying that YES I would be interested in a package of parts that included either a designated custom flash or separate PCM that replaces my current one. If i had the money.... but that's what home equity loans are about.
graphiteRT R/T 12/06/2002 12:00:14	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Dak owner, I'm not familiar with the EDT you're referring to. Source code logic remains most definitely under lock and key as do certain tables. But we're running stuff like 2 bar MAPs, 36 lb. injectors, etc and that most certainly requires table modification. The B&G flash I currently run idles cold very close to stoich(I have onboard wideband display). The only way you can achieve that is via a table mod because I also run 24# injectors and it's an open loop table read at anything under 160 degrees ECT. The O2 sensors are not monitored in that condition. Just FYI, the STFT and LTFT numbers coming out of my current controller tell me that B&G doesn't do much outside of the open loop tables. I have LTFT numbers around -25 which is terrible. The goal with the new tuner will be to bring those as close to 0 as we posssibly can. High confidence from the folks doing the tuning that we can, even accounting for my cam, intake, TB and blower. Bob '01 Graphite CC R/T, MP headers, Magnaflow muffler into 'Cuda style exhaust, M1 2bbl, ported 2.02 R/T heads, custom grind cam, Crower SS rockers, Paxton Novi2000, Boyd's 20s w/Dunlop SP9000s Soon: Viper 4 wheel discs
Canucker Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 12:04:47	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: oh, and for Bob: thinking about it more .. the package thing _could_ work .. but you'd have to be pretty careful in how you do it .. you'd have to have an 'upgrade path' kinda like the WRX guys and Talon guys have. like a stage I, stage II, stage III etc etc type of deal. But you'd have to design each stage such that the step to the next stage is a significant gain over the previous one (maybe a gain that is 110% or 125% of the gain of the previous stage .. eg stage I is 30hp over stock .. then stage II would have to be 35-40hp over Stage I and so on). For example, a throttle body wouldn't be included in stage I .. but maybe III ... I don't know... It'd take a LOT of dyno time, and a LOT of resources. And you'd have to post the dyno results etc. From what I've found, most Dak owners are pretty conservative and leery. they need proof before they take the plunge (with a few exceptions of course, as with anything).. but you could name on one hand I bet the people who have tried something new with their truck that no one else has done yet (and I'm not claiming to be one of them)... but I bet there's 100 times as many people that wont do anything until someone does before and after dynos (either real of butt) or track times and then writes a very comprehensive set of 'how-to' instructions.
Canucker Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 12:12:14	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: aaahhhh ... this post never dies! Bob .. I guess what I was saying about the 'upgrade path' was similar to what alex is saying .. few people have the cash to lay down all the dough for all the parts at once. One more plus of the FAST system I'd like to throw in there is the WOT closed loop wideband capability .. closed loop all the time .. and you can set how much precedence the O2 sensors have in determining/overriding the A/F. A side note: where'd you get the wideband display?? is it an auxillary wide band sensor? or does the PCM use the wide band sensor? does it go to a standard A/F gauge like autometer or is it a custom one?
.alex. Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 12:21:12	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: Canucker: Here's a search item... http://www.haltech.com.au/index.html Marty keeps mentioning that team of Rallye racers over in Africa that are running his 218 cams and HO heads & hi-comp pistons. They are controlling the a/f/spark with HalTech. Hmmm..... need some prices.
Canucker Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 12:34:23	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: already looked into them .. they're a stand alone fuel/spark system (the factory PCM would still run the rest of the ship-speedlimiters etc.) here's what I found: email 1: ----- Original Message ----- To: "sales-us@haltech.com" Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 10:19 AM Subject: Engine Management units > Hello, > > I'm inquiring about your engine management units. I'm curious about the > price range of them, as well, do you have any specific application setups? > I'm looking at using it for a 2000 Dodge Dakota that will be turbocharged in > the future. > > Thank you, > > Mark Our E6k system is the best system to use It will fully control the fuel and ignition. And it is fully programmable while the engine is running. It is $1145.00 including a non finished harness. A terminated harness is an extra $150.00. You will also need a 1, 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor for Manifold pressure sensing. The 1 bar is $64.00 and is for Naturally aspirated engines. The 2 bar is $96.00 and for boost up to 15psi. The 3 bar is $112.00 and for boost up to 30psi. Haltech USA PH 972-831-9800 Fax 972-831-9802 www.haltech.com email2: ----- Original Message ----- To: "Haltech" Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 3:54 PM Subject: RE: Engine Management units > So can the E6K be used with the 4.7L dodge engine? Does it include software > and some base table to get the engine up and running? Can in interface with > a laptop? > > Thanks, > Mark Yes, The E6k can work with it. It does include a base map but the ignition trigger may be a bit tricky to setup. We have not set one of these engines up yet so you may need to do some research on the ignition system. Haltech USA PH 972-831-9800 Fax 972-831-9802 www.haltech.com email3: ----- Original Message ----- To: "Haltech" Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:35 AM Subject: RE: Engine Management units > Specifically what type of research? Just the spark timing map (i.e. the > software), or the actual hardware (sensors; individual plug > coils etc.)? > > Thanks, > Mark Yes. The research would be about what hardware the engine is using. This woud include the trigger, Ignition coils and ignitor that the engine has. A factory service manual with wiring would be a must. Haltech USA PH 972-831-9800 Fax 972-831-9802 www.haltech.com ---------------------------------- and that's as far as I took it.... definitely NOT a P'n'P system. .. would work, but a lot of custom sh!t would be required. Also talked to Damon Blummensomething .. he's running FAST on an R/T and I asked if he looked into Haltech .. he said yeah, but FAST is more comprehensive and that's why he went with it. It'd be a great system for a ground up engine build, or a carb to EFI conversion or something though.
Canucker Dodge Dakota JOIN HERE 12/06/2002 13:28:07	RE: Leach Re-Flash Preliminary Update IP: Logged Message: So here's some info on the Hyperspeed system: ----------------- Hyperspeed’s Performance Computers intercepts the O2 sensor signal from the O2 sensor(s) in your exhaust system and sends an altered signal to the ECU without invading or re-calibrating the ECU itself. The ECU responds to our signal by optimizing the air/fuel ratio to your engine, resulting in more horsepower and torque. Improved air/fuel ratios result in cooler combustion temperatures allowing the factory ECU timing to stay advanced longer. Power, efficiency and improved response is noticeable during everyday use as well as during full throttle applications -------------------- and some more ... straight off their website: ----------------------------------- The HyperSpeed Performance Computers use closed-loop technology. Information collected in the exhaust stream by the O2 sensor (oxygen sensor) is relayed to our computer and then sent directly to the Stock ECU, allowing changes in the fuel management to take place. This technology has been perfected by the automotive industry for years, however our laboratory has improved on this technology in a broader range, which allows the ECU to maximized its' efficiency. This technology is fully patented. The HyperSpeed Performance Computer was designed for smoother performance and drivability, both of which objectives have been achieved. It is unanimously reported that the HyperSpeed also corrects decel popping, increases fuel economy, increases horsepower, increases torque, and maximizes drivability. We have managed to accomplish all of this while keeping the bike emissions legaThe HyperSpeed Performance Computers use closed-loop technology. Information collected in the exhaust stream by the O2 sensor (oxygen sensor) is relayed to our computer and then sent directly to the Stock ECU, allowing changes in the fuel management to take place. This technology has been perfected by the automotive industry for years, however our laboratory has improved on this technology in a broader range, which allows the ECU to maximized its' efficiency. This technology is fully patented. The HyperSpeed Performance Computer was designed for smoother performance and drivability, both of which objectives have been achieved. It is unanimously reported that the HyperSpeed also corrects decel popping, increases fuel economy, increases horsepower, increases torque, and maximizes drivability. We have managed to accomplish all of this while keeping the bike emissions legal. ------------------------------ Sounds like the old IAT trick .. on the O2 sensor ... only closed loop calibration (useless for WOT). but it probably increases part throttle horsepower. Only a fuel calibration too .. no ignition. Haven't found much on the Unichip. I sent them an email. from the sounds of it, most products intercept signals going TO the PCM/ECU, trying to trick the computer into thinking there's more air, or its colder air or whatever... this doesn't work on Speed Density systems because those VE tables are set! what a piggy back computer needs to do is intercept signals coming OUT of the PCM/ECU and alter them... but then, how do you advance timing on a feed forward system?? it would have to anticipate a spark signal and send it ahead of time ... in the future ... spooky. we're screwed guys. The only way for a Speed Density system to be tuned properly is to access the VE tables inside the PCM. or bypass the PCM's control of the engine all together. you can't 'trick' the PCM like you can a MAF system. so we're back to a stand alone/plug'n'play system versus PCM flash.
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