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samtheman
Dodge Dakota
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10/10/2002
16:38:50
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 Subject: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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So who is correct, the tri-y guys or Bell? Also, has anyone run Stans headers?
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bernd
*GenIII*
 
10/10/2002
16:41:49
|  RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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WHAT?!? Tri-Y Headers have been around for a Looooooooooooong time. They build a very nice TQ curve.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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samtheman
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
10/10/2002
16:52:41
| I'm just the messenger, check out his web page!***
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xplikt
GenIII
10/10/2002
17:54:25
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Oh yeah, I read that yesterday. They just dump on tri-ys.
2002 2WD RC SLT 4.7L 5spd 3.92 LSD
MBRP Single in/out, straight piped 3rd cat, turndown tip
Hotchkis swaybars and springs
Bilstein custom tuned shocks
Roadmaster Active Suspension
Shaved emblems and antennae
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D
GenIII
10/10/2002
19:37:21
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Message:
I think its because they want you to buy the
kenne bell headers...
2001 4.7 CC auto
shaved door handles & tailgate
welded Sir Michaels roll pan
DJM drop 3/6
airaid intake
180 stat, ported-polished TB
Dynomax 3" dumped carsound cat
HO cams/manifold, Sure Grip & 3.92's collecting dust!
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signman
Dodge Dakota
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10/10/2002
22:27:01
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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"I think its because they want you to buy the
kenne bell headers..."
I'm not so sure... after I bought my Kenne Bell Supercharger I asked about their headers and Jim Bell told me they were only able to squeeze out about 7 extra rear wheel HP with a set of their headers on an allready Supercharged 4.7. Told me he'd be happy to sell me a set, but wanted to let me know exactly what to expect. Offered to send me a dyno sheet to show me. At $700 a set(if memory serves me correctly) I politely declined. He basically told me that the factory design on the 4.7's was really, really good and I may want to stick with it. I ended up buying a set of Borlas hoping mainly to get a more aggressive sound from the headers and if I gained a couple RWHP great. Only bad thing was after installing them the truck sounded EXACTLY the way it did before. No diff. at all.
Another thing I found interesting was the fact that neither JBA or Borla would send me a dyno sheet of what gains their headers made. Told me that info. wasn't readilly available. WTF??
I'm not saying the tri-Y's don't work. Just letting you know my personal experiences with Jim @ Kenne Bell. From what I understand, they not only dyno all of their products, but also some of what their competitors offer as well. I guess to see if their competitor's claims are true. In some applications the tri-Y's may just be useless...like with the 4.7L.
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98 Black, CC, R/T, 4.56 gears, MP PCM, M1 2 bbl intake manifold, 1.7 Rockers, Ported TB, Cold air intake, 180* Thermostat, 3" Cut-out w/ electric power plate, Catco 3" in/out Hi-Flow cat, 3" Cat-back w/ Flowmaster, 2/2 Drop w/ Toxic Shocks, Clear Corners, Nittos 275/50/17 back - 255/50/17 front
00, 4X4, Intense Blue, CC, Sport Plus, 4.7L, 5sp., 3.92 limited slip, Borla Headers, 180* Thermostat, Magnum Performance Throttle Body, 3" Cat-back w/ Flowmaster, Roadmaster Active Suspension Upgrade
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cudashoe
DakotaEnthusiast
10/10/2002
23:35:22
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Message:
Yea - but did they use the factory Y- pipe? if so no wonder they didnt get much power. I put headers on my 4.7 with true duals 2 1/2" pipe, and got huge gains. Took a full second off of my G-tech times.
And if you have the pre-cats, then they definitly wont make any power.
2000 4.7 5- speed, 1989 Shelby #799 White
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signman
Dodge Dakota
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10/11/2002
08:15:39
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Message:
I'm not sure if they used the factory Y-pipe or not. After he told me the gains and price I really didn't inquire into any more info.
I doubt very seriously that just adding headers cut 1 sec. off your time. Maybe the true duals helped and if you got rid of your pre-cats and main cat. Adding 60-70 RWHP with my Supercharger probably took off 1.0-1.5 sec. off my time.
I have a G-Tech Pro and their fun to play with, but that's about it.
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Fubar512
Dodge Dakota
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10/11/2002
11:37:38
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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I've had headers on a lot of different cars, and I can't quite say that they make (all things being equal) your exhaust any louder.
What I mostly noticed, and only when I was next to a wall or another car, was the metallic ticking sound from the exhaust pulses going thru the primary tubes.
The first car I installed headers on, was an old big block Chevelle, and they made a tremendous difference in power, as the factory manifolds were crap.
Mopars have had some pretty decent manifold designs, but the ones used on the LA style small blocks are not among them...I've seen dyno results on 5.2s were they gained over 15 horses at the rear wheels.
The 4.7's manifolds do look as if they'ed flow better then the 3.9/5.2/5.9 versions, though.
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cudashoe
DakotaEnthusiast
10/11/2002
11:47:55
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Message:
Well the combination of headers, and true 2 1/2" duals, Dr. Gas X-pipe, no cats ( I had already removed my 3rd cat), Powerflow mufflers, did take a full second off of my G-tech. You have a 4X4 so if you had a 2wd RC like me you might have taken 2 seconds off!
I contend that the 4.7 manifolds are WORSE than the 5.2/5.9s. I will post a picture to show why.
2000 4.7 5- speed, 1989 Shelby #799 White
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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10/11/2002
11:53:13
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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cudashoe,
I would love to see the pic of a nasty 4.7l manifold. I have HO'd my intake side and done a gibson on the exhaust but I still ahve a third cat and some pre-cats tot ake care of.... :)
Chris
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/11/2002
12:13:08
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Talked to Marty at KRC and he said he is having a set of JBA's cut-up and re-welded. The BS "Firecone Sealing" blah blah flange only has a 2 1/4" opening. Then that bolts on to the factory 2 1/4" y-pipe mouths.
He is having the firecone things cut off and a 2 1/2" flange opening welded back on. Then those will mate to custom 2 1/2" y-pipe inlets.
So, I think that maybe why hardly anyone has seen any performance from "just bolting on headers." Sure, the factory manifolds flow well, but this sounds like it flows a bit better.....
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Chipster
Dodge Dakota
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10/11/2002
13:33:04
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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I read an article in one of the mags. They were
talking to the DC engineer who designed the
4.7 and the new hemi exhaust system. He
said that the factory exhaust manifolds were
within 2% of aftermarket headers. These new
generation engines are well designed.
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Art
Dodge Dakota
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10/11/2002
14:39:27
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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The 4.7 exhaust manifolds are very well designed,just look at them.They look just like the 340 HP manifolds 'drivers side 340' which had great flow,not many headers flowed as well and the 4.7 sure look like a copy of the design.
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cudashoe
DakotaEnthusiast
10/11/2002
15:10:44
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Art - They look NOTHING like HP 340 manifolds. I will post a picture of those as well. You take off the heat sheild and there is hardly anything there. Have you even seen HP 340 manifolds?
here is a link to pics: http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=81311
Chipster - What magazine? What Article?
These stock 4.7s are the worst looking ones I have ever seen stock. I have had numerous 273/318/340/360s and none of those are as bad as these.
I just happen to have a set of HP 1968-1970 340 manifolds at my garage. I will post pics of them with these 4.7 ones. There is no comparison.
2000 4.7 5- speed, 1989 Shelby #799 White
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cudashoe
DakotaEnthusiast
10/11/2002
15:12:59
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Message:
I will post better quality pics as well. These ones arent too good.
2000 4.7 5- speed, 1989 Shelby #799 White
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Demon Dakota
DakotaEnthusiast
10/11/2002
15:24:30
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Message:
I definitely agree with cudashoe on this one. Anyone who hasn't looked at the 4.7L exhaust manifolds needs to check them out sometime. They can't possibly flow within 2% of aftermarket headers. No friggin way in hell! I'm just glad I've got access to a mandrel bender and CnC machines at my dad's work. I'm going to start making my own stuff, once I do enough research, that is.
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Art
Dodge Dakota
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10/11/2002
16:00:54
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Cudashoe,let me rephrase they look like the passenger side 340 hp manifold i:e they dump at the rear not like the non HP manifolds that dump in the middle and that is what makes them flow well,even the 340 drivers side is not as good as the 4.7 stock manifolds.Have I seen 340 hp manifolds?? well yes everytime I pop my hood :)
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Jerry
Dodge Dakota
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10/11/2002
17:03:51
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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From Kenne Bell's web site.
4.7 with Optimizer ll 10HP gain
4.7 with Optimizer ll and headers 12HP gain
I don't think a butt dyno could detect a 2HP
gain. I thought Duner said that the lack of
performance gain was due to the shrouded
exhaust valve.
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signman
Dodge Dakota
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10/11/2002
17:36:19
|  RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Message:
Don't want to sound as if I'm arguing here but this was my experience with the factory 4.7L manifolds.
When I put my Borlas on I had the exhaust shop that the Dodge Dealer uses. I know the guy very well and he's a drag racer. (Only mention this because it let's you know that he is very performance minded, and knows about trying to squeeze every HP he can out of an engine.) Anyway the day he's installing my headers he calls me and he's got one side off. He tells me that the manifolds look as though they flow extremely well and he doesn't see how the Borla's can flow any better. Said I might want to look into returning them and spending the money elsewhere to get power. Told me I should drive down and take a look at the factory manifolds, that they were impressive. I told him I mainly bought them for a more aggressive sound and to go ahead. Little did we know the truck would sound exactly the same.
Shortly after this I posted my results over at Moparchat.com Several people wanted to see the manifolds. We later had a Dakota meet at VMP dragstrip and I took the manifolds for a few of the guys there to look at and see how well they were designed. There were quite a few people there that were impressed with the way they're designed as well.
So not only has Kenne Bell told me they're impressed with the factory design and flow of the factory manifolds, but also an exhaust guy who's been doing exhaust work for over 20 years, and a bunch of Dakota guys I meet at the track. I'm tellin ya guys...save your money!! Headers are a good idea on the older motors, but the newer 4.7 is not in the same league. Much more efficient straight from the factory.
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98 Black, CC, R/T, 4.56 gears, MP PCM, M1 2 bbl intake manifold, 1.7 Rockers, Ported TB, Cold air intake, 180* Thermostat, 3" Cut-out w/ electric power plate, Catco 3" in/out Hi-Flow cat, 3" Cat-back w/ Flowmaster, 2/2 Drop w/ Toxic Shocks, Clear Corners, Nittos 275/50/17 back - 255/50/17 front
00, 4X4, Intense Blue, CC, Sport Plus, 4.7L, 5sp., 3.92 limited slip, Borla Headers, 180* Thermostat, Magnum Performance Throttle Body, 3" Cat-back w/ Flowmaster, Roadmaster Active Suspension Upgrade
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Chipster
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
10/11/2002
19:26:30
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Cudashoe---Hot Rod Mag. Nov. issue page66
Quote: The unique design of the 4.7L's
patented log exhaust manifolds carries over to
the HEMI, and under their straight tri-laminate
heat shields, they look as restrictive as a
potato up an exhaust pipe.
Looks can be deceiving, however,and their
inventor, Norm Rodenkirch, (DC exhaust
engineer), says his bi-level logs are within
2.2% of the peak HP made using 4-to-2-to-1
tubular manifolds. They are designed for
maximum flow in the minimum amount of
space using principles of gas dynamics, with
the exhaust pulses making as abrupt turn into
individual chambers and then into a lower
common log that maintains port-to-port
balances. These manifolds are high-silicone
molybdenum ductile iron castings, and their
compact shape is not only a packaging
necessity, but has the benefit of retaining
plenty of heat for the cats.
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signman
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
10/12/2002
01:18:53
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Message:
Thanks for taking the time to find the Mag. and write that up Chipster. I now have yet another creditable source to back up what I've been trying to get accross about these 4.7L manifolds.
I hate the idea that someone might come on here and read that huge gains can be received by replacing the factory manifolds with headers. Then go out and spend a few hundred dollars for something that isn't going to make that much of a difference (if any). I'm trying to let others learn from my mistakes. Disappointment sucks!! Throwing your money away sucks too!!
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98 Black, CC, R/T, 4.56 gears, MP PCM, M1 2 bbl intake manifold, 1.7 Rockers, Ported TB, Cold air intake, 180* Thermostat, 3" Cut-out w/ electric power plate, Catco 3" in/out Hi-Flow cat, 3" Cat-back w/ Flowmaster, 2/2 Drop w/ Toxic Shocks, Clear Corners, Nittos 275/50/17 back - 255/50/17 front
00, 4X4, Intense Blue, CC, Sport Plus, 4.7L, 5sp., 3.92 limited slip, Borla Headers, 180* Thermostat, Magnum Performance Throttle Body, 3" Cat-back w/ Flowmaster, Roadmaster Active Suspension Upgrade
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cudashoe
DakotaEnthusiast
10/12/2002
23:36:39
| RE: K. Bell claims tri-ys useless!
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Message:
Nice ride Art! I just sold a 72 Demon.
Ok headers on the 4.7 wont help much with STOCK exhast and cats.. With a true dual set up- they do make a difference. But if you want street legal, then probally not.
I stand by my claim a huge gains with the JBAs, true duals, and a Dr. Gas x-pipe.
I
2000 4.7 5- speed, 1989 Shelby #799 White
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