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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2002
21:03:51
|
 Subject: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Most everybody knows that I have been running a single turbo system on my 4.7 Dakota for a while now. I also have heard that quite a few people are waiting for the 4.7 turbo kits to come out. I have lined up manufacturing sources for all of the parts and I am willing to produce kits if there is enough interest. The kits would be duplicated from my system, except for some refinements for ease of installation and/or performance enhancements. The kits would make 5-7 lbs of boost and would bring the hp numbers of the otherwise stock 4.7 to about 350 hp. It would run safely on premium unleaded and would drop most people's ETs by about a full second.... if not more. At this point, I am only interested in producing a baseline system that everybody can use and use safely but it's obvious that all of the building blocks are there for MUCH higher performance once some experience is gained with the system.
Right now price of the kit looks like it would be about $3,995±.
How many people are actually willing to buy a kit right now, or will be in the very near future? I'm obviously not asking for anybody's money right now.... just trying to decide whether to persue this or not.
Can I see an honest show of hands? hehehe
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CW
GenIII
 
4/22/2002
21:15:31
|  RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Duner: Can I borrow $4000 and then I will buy one. ;)
2001 4.7 RC 5sp 3.92 LSD
Click on thumbnail for mods.
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D
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2002
21:25:15
|  RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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LOL, I wish I had 4 g's sittin around.
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Turbofreak
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2002
21:46:31
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Would you consider financing them? Or a cash only up front kind of deal? I understand if you wanted to do the cash only deal.... Would the $3995 price include an intercooler? I know it is not needed at 5-7psi of boost really, but for later, higher boost settings, it would be super helpful.
I will tell you the truth DUNER, you have an awesome setup there on your truck, and it runs really great, but I am afraid that too many people are scared of turbochargers. This is the reason why those little lamo superchargers will still be selling for years to come...
Also, here is an idea for you, not to get under your collar, but to make you think about this in a business sense. Yes, selling turbo kits for $3995 sounds great to you doesn't it? BUT, knowing that you probably have only about $1800.00 in parts in your kit, your profit margin would be awesome. This is good and bad. If you really want to pump a lot of kits out and get your name out, you must sell for a lower price. You could probably do all the same stuff, possibly cheaper, by buying in larger quantities from your manufacturers, this would bring the profit up for you and prices could be lower for us, the consumer. I was thinking you could make and sell your turbo kit for somewhere around $2900-$3200. The problem with the turbo kit also is this; if someone wants to really turn the boost up, which they will be able to easily with your kit, they are going to start busting pistons and blaming you and that "dang" turbo. This is probably another reason for superchargers success, less dummy factor in the consumer because they can't tamper with boost levels so easily, or warranties are voided, etc.
I didn't write this to lecture you, just to agree with what you are doing in some ways and to give some positive criticism about some things.
I want to congratulate you on the success of your kit and I hope the best for your business!!!!!!!
Sincerely,
Ryan
P.S.- I will probably be trying my hardest to get a turbo kit of some kind for my truck in a couple of years, so you may hear more from me in the future... It all depends on what the economy decides to do and whether or not I can get a higher paying job, as it is, I feel lucky to even afford a new truck..
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Duner
Dodge Dakota
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4/22/2002
22:56:43
| *Consumers....
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Hahahaha, yeah sure, I'll finance everybody! 100% down and take over payments! hehehe
Ryan - I don't know what kind of business you are in right now.... but if you can produce a similar quality kit for the 4.7s that will perform as good or better for just $1800 in the whole system, then you should be in the turbo kit business! It would only cost you $18,000 to build 10 kits at one time, that way you could reduce the cost to all of the *consumers. Although, I'm not sure that a quantity of 10 is gonna get you much of a discount..... you better plan on 20. ;>) Of course, that would be a $36,000 gamble - but just think of how many friends you would make! hehehe All those *consumers....
The whole point of this post is to find out if there is enough interest for a production run of all the necessary CNC produced parts. I'd like nothing better than to be able to make a production run of 50 of everything. But you and I both know that it won't happen that way. That would mean I need 50 *consumers that are ready to spend their money right now.
You are right about one thing.... it's all too easy for somebody to turn the boost up and double their horsepower. Anybody who buys a kit must understand that turning the boost up and doubling the power output will require more of a commitment to support that decision.
Thanks for the positive criticism... and for pointing out how I might better save some money for my potential customers.
*Definition of a consumer = A person who purchases....
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KenDawg
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
00:05:56
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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4,000 grand for a turbo set up? If the price drops lower I'll buy one, your in competition with speedtweaks. They estimate about 3,500-4,000 I think, but I know theirs comes with intercoolers,liquid and air. Plus a 6-8 boost
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TallQuad
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
00:48:43
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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I've been in Duner's shoes before. I custom built a single turbo system for my '95 Jeep Wrangler and did A LOT of plumbing work on it. Even though the PARTS may only be about $1800, you have to consider the R&D and all the costs of trial and error. Basically, your paying for the experience and the parts, which is a good thing for novice people. I think $3500-4000 is a reasonable price for a kit that smacks on over 100 H.P. full-time!
Anybody can build a "turbo system" but I guarantee most people will spend well over $4000 by the time they figure out the engines limits. So what I'm saying is... ahh... anybody got 4 G's they can loan me so I can get a kit from Duner?? hehe...
TallQuad
2002 2wd 4.7 5spd 3.92
6" Lift 33's (still fast!)
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
09:01:53
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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MeMeMeMeMeMeMeMe!!!!! Over Here! I will !!!!!
alex
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rtdkota
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
10:18:31
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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I think Duner is in the best position. He's got a working kit. Other's are still trying to get it to work. I've seen it in person, and had him simply blow the doors off my truck shortly thereafter. People have no idea of what this thing does to a truck-- no whiney supercharger (though some may like that), the steathiness and power output is amazing. Imagine a guy in a QC 4.7 Dakota (4x2) that'll take a F-body (might be a stretch-- but it'll be close).
You could get one the turbo, put up a booth in front of your house with a sign 'E Ticket' and give people rides for money LOL.
A 4.7L Dakota, RC w/turbo would be an animal. Ford Lightnings would be nothing more than a pair of head lights WAY back in your rear view mirror.
Wonder where I could pick up a 4.7 cheap.... Hmmm
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DakGuy
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
12:25:08
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Duner,
The wife and baby spend all my money so that is definately an issue for me and probably the rest of us. If I had $4,000 I would go for it, I hope you find the intrest needed and the money to go with it............Good Luck......
Guy
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TommyBoy
Gen III
4/23/2002
12:33:54
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Message:
Duner,
I most certainly would buy a turbo kit from you, provided that i have the right kind of setup. What exactly do you need to run a turbo? i have only a new intake, headers exhaust and chip. Plus i run a 4x4. Sure will make those mud runs fast! ;)
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
13:34:32
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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I need a little more information. I have about 2/5 of that right now, but saying you have a turbo does not help me. I need a parts list of stuff like type of intercooler, turbo, blow-off valve. All that sort of good stuff.
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Art
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
14:19:25
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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I would love to turbo the 4.7 but being in Canada we are pesoly challenged, 4000 us comes out to like 6000+ Canadian +shipping+ if you get flaged at the border for duties + 14% on the canadian value= another 1000 Canadian,makes the total come out to about 7-8000 Canadian and pretty much puts me out of that price range for now
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bernd
*GenIII*
4/23/2002
16:58:00
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Message:
$4000. Hmmm...with heat exchangers, intercooler, pump, ignition and fuel control? ;)
C'mon Duner...let's build'em both and see what happens.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Dr0p0ff
GenIII
4/23/2002
17:19:24
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Message:
:::watches bernd draw a line in the sand::: "step over!! i dare ya!!"
Keep On Truckin!
Sgt G
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NoDak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/23/2002
17:42:22
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Message:
dunner, I have seen your truck run in a video on another sight before and it rocks. I see that speedtweeks is goign to bild a turbo for all of the other engines first before they make one for the 4.7 engine. maybe this will make them hurry up and make a kit for the 4.7 sooner. Then we will no how close there estimates are. You shuld race there truck when it gets done if it ever gets done then we will no whos kit is better. I would love to get one of your kits for my truck but I don't have enough money.
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/23/2002
18:14:56
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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I really wish we (4.7Ls) were sooner, if it was built in a month from now, Speedtweaks would have one sold already -- me! If I put down a 100% refundable 50% downpayment of the turbo, would that move the 4.7L up a few spot in the production line?? Pleeeeeeez?
my definition of a customer = the most important person in any business
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Chad
Dodge Dakota
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4/23/2002
19:49:54
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Please mark me down as being VERY INTERESTED. I have read many of your posts and you seem very direct and not subject to BS. Just the way you started this post tells me that you are serious about making the kits, but not necessarily trying to generate any marketing hype. Don't take this wrong but you aren't in sales are you? I will need more information about the kit before agreeing to purchase, but the fact that you have already built a kit and that you drive it every day tells me something. Can I assume by your statements about manufacturing the parts that the kits will not hand fabricated one at a time?
Could you email me direct? I might be able to help you market these.....
cdelsi@bennettdavisadvertising.com
Chad
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TallQuad
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/23/2002
21:35:48
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Message:
Hmmm... bernd and duner... Not to make competition, but I would love to see what each kit comes with. I'm not concerned with "how much power" each will give side by side, thats just a quarter turn away on the waste gate. I just wanna know the goodies that comes with 4 Gs!!
Whenever you guys are close to knowing the full set-up, please let us know!! Gotta love turbos!!
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Turbofreak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/24/2002
00:35:15
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Update on my stupid opinion and foot-in-mouth disease!!!!!!!!!
Ok, ok, so consumers are more like people who buy deodorant or toothpaste in your eyes.... not turbo kits for their trucks....;) So SUE me!!!
I started thinking about this idea... If these engines have a relatively good exhaust port, but have crappy intakes and smallish intake ports and flow figures.... You could probably find about another 50-70hp alone in the heads and cams with the same boost level you are running now. This extra horsepower would not raise the strain on the pistons significantly because it would only see a more even pressure rise, with probably the same chamber temperatures, but more air flow going past. Just a thought on how to make your turbo kit perform better with the mild boost settings...
I have a turbo Dodge Omni 2.5L- 4 that has a hybrid turbo on it called a super 70, which uses a small exhaust side and the compressor wheel off of a Buick Grand National's To4 turbo (a 70mm wheel). This turbo is supposed to be efficient well into the 30psi of boost range, which my engine will be capable of with a good intercooler. This is a two-valve per cylinder head that is basically like our 4.7L, but only in some ways; definetely not as good. It is a SOHC head also. The point is this about airflow and boost pressures... DUNER KNOWS THIS BUT MANY OF THE OTHERS DON'T NECESSARILY.....
On an engine with a very high cfm flowing head; Most DOHC, and some SOHC, it takes much less boost pressure to reach the desired hp level than a poor to moderate flowing SOHC head.
My 4 cylinder SOHC has a fully ported and worked head that flows approximately 210-220cfm on the intake at .500 lift. Suprisingly enough, stock cams are the fastest under high boost, only Taft makes one better in a roller for stock rollers...
I also have to use the best of the best in every part of the engine to hopefully keep this thing together... (dang dodge FWD JUNK!!!!)
I have Venolia pistons, custom 1 piece stainless valves, custom-tooled valve locks, hardened retainers, upgraded springs, new, enlarged seats for bigger valves. Custom Serdi valve job, ported and fully polished head, 52pph injectors (that's right, 52PPH!!!), adjustable fuel pressure regulator, Holley Rising Rate Regulator, Arp Wave-loc rod bolts, Arp main studs, Mopar performance head gasket, clevite 77 bearings, Turbo II intake manifold-ported, Turbo exhaust manifold-fully ported.
It started making a funny noise after about 700 miles,only with a mildly driven break in... It was running pretty good, so I drove it too hard for too long I guess, but only at low boost pressures (less than 10). It sounded like a cross between a rod knock and a broken flexplate(yes it happens, remember, I said they were all crap...)
I popped the valve cover, hoping that it was a damaged lifter assembly or something weird maybe, like a cam that broke in two , and only one cylinder would fire, No.1; (remember, crappy...).
This happened to me not too long ago...
BUT NOOOOO!!!!
It was something complicated...
I dropped the oil pan first, and started pulling rod caps off to inspect bearings, all were basically fine except for some fine flaking that had occured (overheated bearings-oil breakdown, etc).
Luckily for me, Dodge made this turd so that the head could be pulled relatively easily without messing with all the accessories and such... SO I pulled the head/turbo/intake and exhaust assembly as one unit, about 125 lbs or so, give or take. I found that the # 3 wall was polished on the thrust side and opposite the thrust side by the piston for some reason... I pushed the pistons up out of the hole and found that #'s 1 AND 2 were ok, but had slight scuffing on the skirts, #3 was completely galled with parts of the skirt missing where it had overheated and came out in chunks. I think this is the noise I heard, #4 was not as bad as #3, but was much worse than #1 or #2. All of these pistons were installed with the same clearance, but you see that #3 and #4 were subject to either more heat, or more fuel wash. I dunno for sure. Anyways, I have more pistons coming for it... and I am going to build it very loose this time, but I left the block in the car. That was the hardest part of the whole job, getting the engine in and out of the car. At least now I can do an in-frame!!! ;) The only reason I even built this car is because of it's potential in the 1/4 mile and how well it handles even in stock trim. Next time you wonder how good these matchboxes handle, let someone with a Omni GLHS scare the hell out of you in the corners.. That is why I am attached to it at all. It certainly isn't because of it's reliability so far...
Anyways, I just wanted to point out what can happen even on an engine designed and built for Turbo use, of which the 4.7 really isn't.. But, who knows,maybe it will be a great turbo engine... I hope so for our sake.
This is another thing to be cautious about, is the valve quality on the 4.7L engines with a turbo.. Many a 4 cylinder turbo has died from valve failure due to imcompatible material used for the extreme heat that a turbo engine puts into the exhuast valves.
Duner, this will be a good thing for you to test or find out, what type of material Dodge uses for our 4.7L valves, and if the HO heads have better material in them like some heads tend to for higher performance engines.. LT1 versus LT4 Chevy valves, LT1 is crap, LT4 is awesome Sodium filled $30.00 each valve.. perfect fore N20 or Turbo-supercharger.
If not, I guess you could also offer a Ported head with Turbo-proof valves installed as an upgrade for your kit..
One more thing of issue is this...
How difficult would it be to pull the heads and pull the rod and piston assemblies out in your hands to change the pistons to a forged design?
Is the block short enough and the engine bay wide enough to allow for this?
I know I have said way too much here, so I will shut-up for now....
Just some things to contemplate...
Later All,
Ryan
Btw- My Turbo Omni should be able to smoke pretty much anything that normally prowls the streets as soon as I get it fixed, and hopefully, it will stay ok, but no guarantees ..;) I will probably try to sell it and use the funds for my '67 Cutlass 2dr hardtop or maybe to work on my Dakota with... Who knows...
This must be the longest post ever....
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Crux
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/24/2002
01:15:32
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Message:
ive actually been saving for either a good cooled turbo or supercharger for a few months now. Will have the money youve targeted in another month or so, and very intrested in the idea. Post a little more info :)
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D
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
02:15:17
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Message:
post some real world numbers...at 6-8 psi,
none of this 20 psi stuff. We all know your
truck runs in the 12's, but thats running 20lbs
of boost.
Please include parts that come with the kit,
intercooler, blow off valve, etc. I would much
rather spend 4 g's on a turbo kit than spend
the same on a powerdyne SC, as long as the
kit comes with easy to follow installation
guide, (for dummies like me)
Sounds to me like Bernd is starting to sweat.
I hope they dont hurry their kit for the 4.7's,
those guys need to take their time and get it
right the first time. sounds like duner already
has the querks worked out of his kit...he's
ready to mass produce!
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xplikt
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/24/2002
02:49:53
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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He doesn't need to rush it, just move it up the ladder. How many 3.9L turbo posts have you seen? Guess there are a lot more 3.9s, 5.2s than 4.7s.. damn. I'm with D, we have got to see some real world numbers and what's in the bag-o-goodies.
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YA
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
04:31:18
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Interesting. Give us the contents information so we can make an informed decision.
10# kit would work for me.
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bernd
*GenIII*
4/24/2002
08:10:35
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Sweating? Nah. Sure, a little competition is out there now, but that just makes us work harder to make our version better. We're taking our time one the kits we're building to make sure we've got all bases covered.
1997 Dodge Dakota SLT - V6
Supercharged/Intercooled @ 10# w/Nitrous
14.55 @ 96.01mph
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Dr0p0ff
GenIII
4/24/2002
08:23:13
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Message:
hey D.. when/where did u hear that he was running 20ish #s? I thought the 12.7 was with 12 (doable with stock stuff he's proven.. course that water injection is in there) and Duner for some reason I thought you'd had your wastegate upto 14#s. do i have too much sand in my eyes? or is that right?
Keep On Truckin!
Sgt G
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Rockn blk dak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/24/2002
09:52:48
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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hell yea duner as soon as u get some more info on these things and i get the money saved up i would gladly buy a turbo kit for my 4.7 i love this truck, hehe but it needs more speed.
Ps. arent turbochargers suppose to be more reliable then a supercharger, besides turbo doesnt run off the engine its the exhuast right?
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PopGenie
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
10:06:11
|  RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Correct -- (simply) Turbo units run by taking exhaust gases from the engine and turning the compressor, which forces the pressurized air into the motor. Superchargers work off of a belt-type drive system (in most applications) to turn the compressor and force pressurized air into the engine. A Supercharger is considered a parasitic type of power -- it takes some away from the engine, but more than makes up for it in boost. A turbo is less efficient, and requires spool-up time to engage, whereas the supercharger is on from the get go. As far as reliability? The point can be argued. With proper maintenance and care both are reliable. Of course, when dealing with automotive maintenance in general, the same applies.
Just my Spin --
Mike T.
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rtdkota
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
10:08:08
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Talk about a firestorm.
I believe when I saw him run in the high 12s he was in the 10-12# range. Running in the 6-8# range (basically what most SC are running) would be a mid 13s run. That's knocking at least 1.5 seconds off your 1/4 mi time, and adding 10-12 mph! Some head porting, possibly HO cams (or custom grind-- see www.KRCperformance.com) should put a truck w/6-8# of boost back into the high 12s, still getting good fuel economy when driven in a normal (safe/sane) manner. He went full boat on his OWN install, and would put the same into his kit. From the craftmanship I saw, you'd be hard pressed (hard pressed, turbo, pressure, ha ha-- sorry) .. you'd be hard pressed to get this kind of setup from a large, mass production type company. Duner will go into detail, I'm sure. I'm sure if you bought one, he'd make you a sweet deal on a stripe kit for your truck too! (He did mine, and MANY others-- good stuff)
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SinCity R/T
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
12:13:57
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Duner ran 12.76 at 10# of boost at a poor hot track. Absolutely blew the doors off my R/T and the only guys that were hanging with him that day were a very well-tuned/driven S/C RT (12.4/5?) and a 408 with 200-shot fogger (12.x).
The rest of you who opened your mouths big enough to shove your foots in obviously didn't read the part where he said the kit would be released with 6-8# because it would be very safe at that level, but could be run higher at the owner's risk. There's a big difference between what a manufacturer can produce and what they will release just because of liability. I'm sure the people who shot themselves in the foot up above would be the first morons to crank their systems up to 25# and then complain to the mfr when their pistons self-destructed.
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rtdkota
Dodge Dakota
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4/24/2002
12:30:35
| RE: 4.7 Turbo Kits - Who wants one?
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Reading back-- Turbos take time to spool up... sure they do. Superchargers are there from the start??? I guess you don't have a lot of experience with the different (and popular) SC out there. The centrifical SC (powerdyne, vortech, Paxton) require a certain amount of rpms before they build boost. Sure, you can run a smaller pulley and build boost more quickly, but your gonna be overboosting (or running a LOT) by doing do. Majority of people are running 6-8#... with good results. These don't build 6-8# from idle or even close to that. Usually the boost doesn't come on until 2000 rpm and up... Peak boost near the high rpms range. A turbo works in the same fashion, but because it's free wheeling, once the exhaust gets the turbine going, it can hit 'full boost' much quicker. Go test drive a SAAB turbo (my brother has had 3-- the last two are still going, his with 198K miles, his wife's in the 359k range). He's had 2 turbos in 200k miles (the original went at 120k miles-- bearing went, he bought a new Turbo rather than rebuilding). With his car I missed a shift (2nd to 5th rather than 2nd to 3rd! OOps!)... within 2 seconds the boost went from -1 (vaccuum) to 8#s...and the car hauled from 25 mph all the way to 90 in nothing flat when getting on the fwy. Pulled like a V8, and it's only a 2.0L 4cyl. If you are worried about heat, run an intercooler. It'll actually give you more boost, so you de-tune the turbo to keep it in the same boost range, and have a cool air charge at the same time.
The only SC that is basically BOOST from idle on is the roots style Kennebell SC. There expensive, and pretty involved to install-- but powerwise the closing thing to a Turbo (with less lag than a turbo, but not by much.)
Sam
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