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Jon
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
10:37:06
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 Subject: Can air charge be too Cold?
IP: Logged
Message:
I know that the colder the air is the more
dense with oxygen particles it becomes, so as
a result can the incoming air charge be too
cold? The other day i was driving in 19 degree
weather wondering if my motor was making
max HP. Also when the air comes into the TB
or intake is there a max amount that can be
handled? For instance I could stuff my mouth
with 500 M&M's and only be able to take in
300. So my max efficency would only be 300.
Would this same analogy hold true with air
intakes?
Also how might volumetric efficency play into
this question? Sorry for the wordy post, but I
was feeling scientific and curious.
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andrew
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
10:47:25
|  RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
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Message:
Not sure about all that scientific stuff but I doubt any dodge motor is making its maximum amount of hp as is. As far as air being too cold or too dense, I doubt it. Now I feel a strange hunger for some m&m's.
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litl punisher
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
11:08:32
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
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Message:
A certain size tb can only allow so much air. stuffing more air in is different. that would be the same as what a supercharger does. (force feeding M&M's) If you have to much boost you might want a bigger tb or intake. (bigger mouth and throat to handle more of yourM&M's). as for the air the colder the better. Why do you think i run the bottle. problem is have to watch timing and run colder plugs. However the temp of outside is not usually cold enough to effect anything that the computer can't adjust itself
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ALEX
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
11:12:52
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
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Message:
To add to litlpunisher's thing, Nitrous Oxide lowers the intake air temp to levels like 30 degrees below zero(f) and that's how it makes all the power. VERRRRRY cold air and that one free oxygen molecule that comes loose. Mattr of fact, if you accidentally spray the NOS out of the bottle onto yourself, it can cause instant frostbite. So, driving around in 19 degree weather is not making max HP, but only because that TOO WARM, not TOO COLD. See?
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Mark
Forum Moderator
11/30/2001
12:04:39
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
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Message:
When dealing with engines and cold temperatures, there is more to take into account. Cold air is much better for the engine but you have to understand that its not only the air that is cold, everythign else is cold too and some mechanical and chemical components work differently at different temperatures. A battery is a prime example. It will not put out as much as a warmer one. Oil viscosity is different at different temperatures. Different engine materials expand differently at different temperatures. This wont matter too much if the engine is already warm though. Cold intake is good though because the air is more dense and therefor holds more oxygen nitrogen and argon. Your assumption is correct. Altitude also effects the density of air. Cant forget the 1% of argon which is in the atmosphere. I had this one professor in college that kept mentioning the argon after i pointed this out. Haha. I love you Dr. Bart!
-Mark Hryckiewicz
1993 Sport RC SB 5.2L Auto
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ZenDak
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
12:39:56
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
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Message:
Well,,,I got's a question:
I know that at a certain temp. water is at it's most dense state,,,and the colder or warmer it gets it becomes less dense.
Do this hold true for air? Is there a certain temp. at which air is at it's most dense state?
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Jon
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
12:42:17
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
IP: Logged
Message:
Thanks for the quick replies. I understand the whole forcing versus available air deal. One more question. Since the colder air is better and sea level has more dense air what would the perfect track conditions be to go the fastest? i was thinkin about -30 degrees Farenheit, at Death Valley(below sea level), now humid day or not humid day? How does humidity affect it? I am tempted to go buy a science book now.
Oh sorry about the M&M analogy i was eating some at the time and it was the first thing to come to mind.
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Fillupd
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
12:57:22
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
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Message:
I have frozen some M&M's and it seems like I
can eat more when they are
cold/verses when they are warm.
I'll run the test again just to make sure.
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Lesley
GenIII
11/30/2001
13:15:32
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
IP: Logged
Message:
I think you could process them faster at room temp
97 3.9 V6 Sport Club Cab. Black. Auto 3.55
Quick D Intake, JBA Stainless headers
Autolite 3923s with Borg Warner Wires
Awaiting Installation: Borla catback, V8 R/T TB
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alex
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
13:27:18
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
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Message:
Humidity kills any & all effects of cold-air or high density or whatever. But then again (I'm not a weather man, just play one on TV), when the humidity is high, the barometric pressure is generally low, and therefore, the air is less dense. Like summer in Atlanta. When the air is ultra dense, the barometer is reading its highest reading and the humidity is typically low. The best possible AIR conditions would be in the middle of winter in the center of Death Valley with about 20% humidity. That 20% is just to keep your skin from craking open. Then other problem is that asphalt is also very dense when it's cold. So If you could have soem cold dry air running thru your intake and some hot sticky asphalt under your tires, you'd have it made. Since that hardly EVER happens, somebody figured out that Nitrous Oxide, as it's released from the bottle, cools off to about -30 degrees. Therefore, you can have a -30 degree intake charge while the tires are gripping onto some 108 degree pavement and it makes for soem damn fine drag racing!
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Lattimer
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
14:04:42
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
IP: Logged
Message:
ZenDak,
That density property you asked about is particular only to water. Its the only substance that does that. I remember something (ok, almost nothing) about covalent bonds and such, but I do remember that water is the only substance that does that. Thats why ice floats. Air will get more dense as it gets colder until it becomes a solid, then it won't change anymore (very, very tiny amount, but very difficult to measure) once its a solid.
Oh, yeah, I am a geek (read engineer).
Shawn
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Andy VH
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
17:27:14
|  RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
IP: Logged
Message:
OH BOY!! Good ol' Wisconsin winters will finally offer me something to work with!! I have made all the popular mods (at home) in anticipation of those cold dense power making winter days!
Oh,...wait,....I've been making these changes trying to improve my mileage.
DOH!!
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Jon
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
18:08:24
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
IP: Logged
Message:
So now that I have this wealth of knowledge I am thinking about using a heated driveway system for the 1/4 mile track, you know to keep the tires sticky. then I am going to buy a advanced air conditioning system to keep the temp at about -30 and then a advanced humidifier that will keep it at 10 percent. So this whole indoor race arena should cost about 35 million to make. Now all I need is a sponsor...think Speedtweaks could fork over the donation :)
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kota on 20s
GenIII
11/30/2001
20:01:14
| RE: Can air charge be too Cold?
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Message:
Jon, i think you have something there! hehehe.
Eric
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