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D
Dodge Dakota
11/29/2001
00:05:46
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 Subject: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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which is better? Has anyone had limited slip installed by dodge after purchasing their dakota? can they perform this mod at dodge dealerships? I was quoted $700 complete install/parts for posi, and wasnt sure if I should go the LS route through the dealership.
any input would be great.
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Clevite 77
Dodge Dakota
11/29/2001
08:34:15
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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The way I look at it "posi" is when the rear wheels are locked together but that's what GM used to call their LSD's but anyways whether you lock your rear axles or go with a LSD depends on what you need if for, daily driving some off roading or towing... a LSD would work fine. serious drag racing, or if you use it only for "muddin" a posi would work. (not sure if it was GM that called it a Posi or someone else, don't quote me on that)
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Dan Gruber
Gen III
 
11/29/2001
12:07:10
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Limited Slip and Posi are two names for the same thing...they distribute torque to both drive wheels so that one wheel isn't spinning wildly while the other just sits there. But they don't completely eliminate the speed difference between the wheels to allow for turning corners. Good on the road and helps off road or when traction is less than ideal.
This is different from a locker which actually locks the drive wheels together so they spin at the same speed whether going stright or turning. Good off road but lousy on the road.
Dan
2000 CC SLT 4.7 4X4 Auto 3.55 LSD
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D
Dodge Dakota
11/29/2001
15:27:14
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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I always thought posi makes both drive wheels spin all the time, and limited slip kicks in when one wheel starts to lose traction????
thanx for the info, did you have LSD installed, or did it come from the factory?
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Zute
Dodge Dakota
11/29/2001
18:09:17
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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What about Locking or Anti-slip differential?
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Jimbo
Gen III
11/29/2001
19:01:23
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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I ordered my 2WD Dak with the "Anti Spin" differential from the factory. I can't tell you which is better, but I can tell you what this one does. I got it because I had other vehicles with one wheel drive that could never get traction. I bought the truck because its fast as hell and I want to get as much of that power to the ground as possible. With the stock LSD, the only time I leave tread is when I want to ;-) The only drawbacks are the tires wear faster and it gets a little tricky in the rain. But I bought the Dak expecting to replace the tires on a monthly basis and it hasn't been raining much in Tampa lately, so it's all good.
'01 CC SLT 2WD 4.7 5-Speed 3.55 LSD
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Bruce P.
Dodge Dakota
11/29/2001
19:10:35
| limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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HOLD ON GUYS!!
LSD is EXACTLY THE SAME as the GM-named "PosiTraction"
GM calls it PosiTraction
Mopar calls it TracLok
They are BOTH LSD!
These are JUST BRAND NAMES.
Technically... the Mopar TracLok is better because it uses CONES for the clutches.
Here are some URLs that help explain it.
http://www.truckworld.com/How-To-Tech/Lockers-Differentials/4x4Lockers-Diffs.html
http://www.ring-pinion.com/Gear%20Talk/TracLoc.html
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/diffs.htm
http://www.auburngear.com/402.htm
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Aaro
Dodge Dakota
11/29/2001
21:21:16
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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The cone thing is used on Auburn Gear diff's, the "Dana" track-loc has clutch discs and has the best name in the industry behind it. Both clutches & cones can wear out , wear can be greatly reduced if you change the gear lube every 20-30,000 miles and use red-line gear lube.Auburn Gear diffs don't get a good showing at drag strips and aren't as strong as a dana diff.If you look at a 8 1/4 dana trac-loc diff you will be impressed by the steel on this thing,looks as strong as a 9" ford,in '97 the axles , bearings and caps got bigger and sloved the weakness of the 8 1/4" rear end.
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MACE
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
14:14:58
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Ok, so do our DAKs that have the anti-spin option,
have full time torque applied to both rear wheels, or only full time torque to the right rear, till it spins, then the left rear starts getting torque?
For extra credit, what it the full time torque split on my AWD DAK? I've yet to get the same concise answer from multiple sources...or is there
no full time torque split, but just the ability at a given time to give all wheels torque?
I do know our AWD system gives traction to the wheel(s) with the most spin -vs- most traction.
Thanks.
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Bruce P
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
20:38:18
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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MACE You are mis-informed on both accounts
1) The LSD is just some preloaded clutches within a differential. BOTH wheels are connected together to a point where the clutches slip.
2) The AWD option (as offered on the Dakota) "splits" NOTHING. it is just an open diffential in the xfer case. It is essentially ONE WHEEL DRIVE sending torque to the wheel with the *least* traction.
Adding LSD to the AWD option is even WORSE... the action of the LSD essentially GAUANTEES that one front wheel will slip LONG before there is enough torque to break traction on BOTH rear wheels.
This has been pretty much discussed to death each winter on the edmunds Dakota forums.
BOTTOM LINE: DO not pay extra for the AWD option. you will get LESS traction and wear out drivetrain linkages and tires at an alarming rate. (and get less MPG too)
A 2WD with LSD has better tractive force to the ground than AWD with or without LSD!!
The above assumes the AWD is not placed into the 4HI position. The physics of the 4WD system changes when this occours and is a different discussion.
READ THE URLS I POSTED ABOVE VERY CAREFULLY!
BTW; I have been driving 4WD for over 25 years in Vermont winters. I have ALWAYS owned a 4WD and KNOW what I am talking about from a real-world perspective.
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robert
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
20:55:50
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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I just want to back everything that Bruce P. said... from the LSD to the AWD. He is right on.
Never thought about the LSD and AWD scenario... but after thinking about it, I agree 100%.
One thing to remember... all of the LSDs still allow for slip so you can turn smoothly. This means that with enough power and/or the right traction conditions (or lack thereof) you can still lose traction in one wheel. DO NOT sit there and 'smoke' one tire when you have a LSD (or without LSD for that matter). This can be hard on the differential (with our without LSD) and it can wear out the LSD mechanism. LSDs are not meant to handle 'big' power at the drag strip.
As for the torque split issue... there is none. Explaining how a differential works is very hard without showing you one taken apart. If you could just see how it works, everyone would understand that when factories use the term 'torque split', they are using it in a very different way than what most people think it means. The ONLY way you could have true torque split is if there were two separate power sources (one powering the front driveline and the other powering the other driveline) independent of each other... monitored and controled by one system. Another way would be to have brakes applied to the slipping wheel(s) independently of each other... but that is not really a split, it is just applying more resistance to the slipping wheel to make things equal.
Sorry, got off on a tagent... but this subject is probably one of the most mis-understood things in 'gear talk'. Not just this board, but everywhere.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
11/30/2001
23:19:00
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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limited slip and posi are same principal. Both redirect power to wheel with the most traction and only function when traction is reduced or lost at primary drive wheel. You are confuseing these two terms with a locking differiental. A locking differiential(like the detroit locker) stays locked at all times and only unlocks when coasting around curves. Their are also lock on demand systems like and ARB air locker. It lock and unlocks when ever you turn it on or off.
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D
Dodge Dakota
12/02/2001
18:52:41
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Message:
okay, thanks for confusing me more...ha ha.
does anyone know if a detroit locker is
available for an 01 CC4.7 2wd??
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MACE
Dodge Dakota
12/03/2001
13:40:41
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Bruce/Robert
If our AWD system is just one wheel traction till
slippage occurs, how can it promote wearing of parts faster or provide less MPG, especially when driving most of the times on surfaces with plenty of traction?
Is some mechanical part still being used when there is traction?
Re: 2wd with LSD giving better traction than AWD, I'd say my driving experience with this AWD system, shows it to work just fine: example, pouring rain at a stop light, I can floor it and go WOT with NO tire spin at all, goobs of traction....will 2wd with LSD do this as well or be quicker off the line?
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robert
Dodge Dakota
12/03/2001
16:20:44
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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MACE,
I did not say that only one whee drives the vehicle! I just stated that it is possible to have one wheel slip... and the truck go nowhere. Jack one front wheel off the the ground with your transfer case in full-time 4wd and you will be able to put the truck in gear without moving.
I don't agree with 2wd with LSD being better than full-time 4wd. All of this comes down to the situation and traction. In slippery road conditions, an LSD can be worse... because both tires can bust loose. At lease when only one breaks loose the other keeps the rear end from sliding around.
All we were trying to explain was the full-time option is an open-diff in the x-fer case. It is like the diff in your axle... where you can hold one wheel and the other one turns. Same thing with the drive-shafts. Hold one shaft, and the other one turns. Hold the rear shaft and the front one turns. Hold one front tire and the other front tire turns. This means you can hold the rear drive-shaft AND one front tire... and the front one will turn. 4HI is locking the diff in the transfer case. In that scenario, you are guaranteed one front wheel and one rear wheel will ALWAYS turn... no matter what the conditions. Locking the differential at the axle will guarantee both wheels with turn no matter what the conditions.
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Bruce P.
Dodge Dakota
12/03/2001
22:07:59
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Message:
MACE
I do not beleive that Dodge ever said it is AWD... they call it FT4WD... this is a SIGNIFICANT difference.
The name AWD is more often used for superiour systems such as that used on Suberu that actually send power to the wheels that has the MOST traction.
Your Dakota FT4WD actually sends power the wheel with the LEAST traction. That is why, with one wheel sitting on ice... you could be theoretically stuck and unable to move.
As for your question about wear -n- tear. Since ALL of the driveshafts and axles are ALWAYS enguaged with FT4WD, there is a LOT more moving parts under the vehicle at all times. When turing sharp (such as parking-lot manovers) there is additional stress on all of these parts because the outside front wheel is turning faster than any of the others. If you are a savvy driver, you will notice that the vehicle will tend to "slow down" during sharp turns while coasting. This is a direct result of your tires "scrubbing" the pavement.
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RAFAEL
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/06/2002
18:11:37
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Message:
go to GEARUS.COM and u are going to get ur posi
or go to EBAY
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Cecil
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/06/2002
18:57:14
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Message:
D
Get something from powertrax.com,trust me it works ,just give it time to brake in.
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Dakota Bob
GenII
4/06/2002
19:29:25
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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D, was you wanting an answer on 2wd or 4wd?
On 2 wheel drive a posi unit stays locked except going around corners.
LSD is not the same thing at all. It will act like a posi at times but you will get one wheel slipping at times.
Not sure how much rear ends have changed over the years but If you have a posi traction off the ground and spin one wheel with your hand the other wheel spins in the same direction.
LSD you spin one wheel with your hand the other turns in the opposite direction.
Bob
Cincinnati
Jet chip stage 1 JBA Headers,19# fuel Injectors,Flow master 40s Split Fire Plugs K/N Chrome Filter 180 T Stat ,TPS adjustment,Flometrics throttle body Black Magic 150
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Red4.7
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/06/2002
21:28:35
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Message:
All this LSD, and awd, whats anti-spin? Good discusion, it's very interesting.
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scat pack
GenIII
4/08/2002
18:24:56
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Message:
Dakota Bob, your descrption of how LSD set up spins is actually how an open rear spins. On the old mopar "sure grip" rears the tires both spin the same way like with GM's "posi", I would think the LSD should do the same ?
2K RC 4.7 4x4
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Dakota Bob
GenII
4/08/2002
20:39:54
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Yes, I was refering to the gm posi. I thought the LSD would do the opposite. My truck if I have both wheels off the ground and turn one wheel by hand the other wheel spins the opposite direction. When I punch it both wheels spin on mine on wet or dry road except when Im gettin on it while turning.
Bob
Cincinnati
94 CC 3.9 Jet chip stage 1 JBA Headers,19# fuel Injectors,Flow master 40s Split Fire Plugs K/N Chrome Filter 180 T Stat ,TPS adjustment,Flometrics throttle body Black Magic 150 JBA wires
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D
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/09/2002
12:35:23
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Message:
Bob...you have the OEM LS unit, or aftermarket
unit?
I wonder if the mopar unit is better than a
powertrax?
I go up to the snow a lot in the winter, would
the LSD be a bad idea, compared to an open
differential setup?
01/4.7/CC/2WD/mods/DJMdrop3-6
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Dakota Bob
GenII
4/09/2002
22:19:43
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Its OEM. I haven't done any thing to it. I think the LSD would be good for what you want.
Bob
94 CC 3.9 Jet chip stage 1 JBA Headers,19# fuel Injectors,Flow master 40s Split Fire Plugs K/N Chrome Filter 180 T Stat ,TPS adjustment,Flometrics throttle body Black Magic 150 JBA wires
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jjj
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/09/2002
22:31:24
|  RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Dakota Bob, I hate to tell you but if you jack both rear wheels off of the ground and spin on and the other tire goes in the opposite direction - you have an open diff. not a LSD.
LSD, posi, etc (except locker) are all the same. Even though different means are used to get the end result.
If you have a LSD and get both wheels up in neutral and spin one the other will spin the same direction.
Jeff
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Dakota Bob
GenII
4/10/2002
06:22:27
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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Thats what I thought I had all the time was open.
Bob
94 CC 3.9 Jet chip stage 1 JBA Headers,19# fuel Injectors,Flow master 40s Split Fire Plugs K/N Chrome Filter 180 T Stat ,TPS adjustment,Flometrics throttle body Black Magic 150 JBA wires
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LI Blackdak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/10/2002
13:25:20
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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is LSD the same as anti spin???
im confused
if i powerbrake only the right tire spins
what does that mean??
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J. C. Brandon
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/10/2002
14:10:26
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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"...if i powerbrake only the right tire spins
what does that mean??"
It means you are trashing the tire and brakes to make a bunch of smoke. And annoying the grown-ups.
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LI Blackdak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/10/2002
15:45:28
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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more or less
um where did this guy come from??
the toyota forum??
didn't u read the burnout 2 post
this is a pickup truck forum
ill burnout if i want to
where do u live, i wanna come tear up ur lawn with my limited slip or anti spin or what ever
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D
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/10/2002
18:00:15
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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one wheel spins, you have an open diff. not
limited slip.
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LI Blackdak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
4/10/2002
18:04:05
| RE: limited slip vs. posi on a cc4.7 auto
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yeah it definatly is taking a toll on my right rear wheel...i think ill stop
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