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jasonsdakota
Dodge Dakota
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12/19/2004
16:45:52
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 Subject: auxilary injectors?
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i guess this is something you do only if you need extra fuel, but how does this work on a dakota. kenne bell puts two on with a supercharger, where do they go? anyone got pics?
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rtspeeddemon
Dodge Dakota
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12/20/2004
11:03:51
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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Jason, do your self a favour and either forget about supercharging or pay a professional to set one up for you.
If you need to ask where the additional injectors go then you are far to inexperienced to tackle this project.
I'm not meaning to slam you here with this post, but boosting an application does not allow for errors without parts breaking. If something is not set up right parts will break!
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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12/20/2004
15:38:23
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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"If you need to ask where the additional injectors go then you are far to inexperienced to tackle this project."
Gee, I wonder if the first person on the moon had prior experience.
Go for it, Jason, most everyone except, rtspeeddemon, has learned from experience. To me, it's obvious that you are asking long before taking the plunge. I'm quite sure that you are capable of determining your own capabilities.
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MauiRT
Dodge Dakota
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12/20/2004
15:51:50
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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Gotta agree with the speed demon..i have 25 years of experince in a racing garage and believe me its not for all to do..just asking for advice wont do...you need to have watched and tried and made mistakes corrected by someone who knows before even trying this..and all in all the bang for the buck isnt really worth it...esprcially with the fact you need to upgrade MANY parts and reprogram others...and as the demon says there is ZERO room for any error.........clear that n56629 hasnt a clue either .......
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hybrid
Dodge Dakota
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12/20/2004
16:52:32
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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MauiRT,
Am I reading this rite?
" all in all the bang for the buck isnt really worth it...esprcially with the fact you need to upgrade MANY parts and reprogram others"
To me that says that adding forced induction to a motor is NOT worth it?
Other then N20 I don't know an easier way to gain that much power.
My engine is bone stock internally, rite down to the oil filter.
The only parts I've upgraded or replaced are the following:
1) exhaust manifold with a turbo manifold
2)injectors (now have 72# injectors)
3)fuel pump (255lph cheap insurance)
4)programable ecu (reprograming is as easy as plugging in a laptop,changing perameters, then burning it into the chip)
Beyond that the parts replaced are parts that most do anyways such as exhaust, intake filter (when I run one) msd ignition, spark plugs ($1.49 each not breaking the bank)etc...
In addition to those parts I had to buy the following:
intercooler,
wastegate,
blow-off valve,
GM 3-bar map sensor,
a snail that blows hard (turbo)
and charge pipe (mandrel -u- bends)
Sure there are some small things I needed such as gauges,resistor pack,etc but nothing major.
I feel the $3,500 spent (including paying for some tuning) is well worth the 100% increase in hp (at actually works out to being alomst exactly double the stock hp (give or take a couple hp)
Beyond that you are CORRECT, One needs a complete understanding of how and why things work the way they do. I don't have 25 years of experience in a garage, but the few years I have working on MY car has taught me a lot. I've been messing with forced induction for about 4 years, I love it and wouldn't have it any other way. Like it was said before, one thing goes wrong,.(to much timing, not enough fuel,etc).....time for a rebuild. It's expensive when something goes wrong, but the feeling of all that power pushing you back in your seat upon accleration is well worth the risk.
I've put well over 40K miles on my engine since it was boosted, along with 3 years of abuse at the track (1/8th mile and 1/4 mile)..so far it's holding up great, compression is good,leakdown is good, and it pulls like no other.\
He has a LOT to learn before he starts turning wrenches, I'd hate to see a post from someone (anyone) saying "you guys were rite" and ending with "so now I'm looking for a new motor".....
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RaZoR1
Dodge Dakota
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12/20/2004
19:21:41
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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Just to let ya's know the kenne bell kit is pretty much fool proof. The directions are great and the extra fuel, timing and anything else is supplied in the kit(180 stat, iridium plugs). You have to send them your computer to be flashed and wait for it to come back. I shipped them mine beforehand and they shipped it back with the charger. I'm not sure if they are making one for your year dak yet jasonsdakota. Check out kennebell.net and see for yourself.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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12/20/2004
22:15:31
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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"i have 25 years of experince in a racing garage and believe me its not for all to do"---MauiRT
If there were any truth in that, you would have known that there setups for street use and setups for all out racing. Maybe you should get out of that so-called racing garage and smell the roses.
Most anyone that can do the basics such as remove manifolds and heads, install headers and such, can most certainly install today's plug and play supercharger kits.
Now, MauiRT, tell us how you think the average Joe Blow can get more horse power out of their engine for less than the cost of supercharger. Six or seven grand should get a nice long block and an additional 100-150 hp. And, of course you will have to add all of those little extras like a larger throttle body, some headers, a new pcm, etc.
Yep, that's all a whole lot easier for average Joe Blow than figuring out how to install one of them crummy supercharger. But, hey, like you say, I don't have a clue.
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rgathright
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
09:49:15
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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Hybrid? Tell us more about your turbo setup... you seem new to the boards.
Your comment about the programmable ECU is interesting as well... you mean an aftermarket mapping system right?
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hybrid
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
13:09:04
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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rgathright,
I've been around for about a year (bought my cc dak in june of 03)...
As far as my turbo-set-up goes it's not on my dak but my other vehicle. I only mention it by "vehicle" because the last time I mentioned the make it got a few people's panties in an uproar. I don't mind sharing i actually love talking about it and helping give other idea's and advice because thats why I come here....to learn and maybe teach others a little. When it comes to turbo's and gas engines(fuel injected) they are all pretty much the same, they operate on the same theory and perameters (they all need tuned the same)..The programable ecu is actually my factory ecu but with a program soldered (chip) into the board. From that port I can plug the tuning software into that port, hook it up to a laptop and tune. I have complete control over the timing and fuel perameters. It's designed to allow you to tune your engine like it came from the factory turbocharged stock (or supercharged or insane N/A engines). It allows me to run much larger injectors (stock for me was 28lb per hour and i'm now running 72lb per hour) and tune the duty cycle of the injector to richen or lean out the mixture. Basically from start-up (running larger injectors you have to build a program to start the car on otherwise it wont start) to redline I can make any changes that effect the tune of the motor, then save them and burn them into that chip. Then the car runs off that program. It's really cool and makes tuning 100 times safer and easier. much more precise then running a fmu (boost dependent fuel pressure regulator) best of all the system only costs about $545 to get started. I used to run a fmu and other "piggyback" fuel devices but decided to get serious about my racing so I went this route. I gained about 15% more power just by tuning it more precise.
I can post up more if your interested.
I just hate to see people spend all this time an money on their vehicles only to ruin it all by stuipid choices.
I don't know of a single person that would build their engine larger throttle body,cold air intake,wild cam, P&P Intake manifold upgrade their valvetrain, full exhaust w/headers,etc....then purposly kink their fuel line so they get half as much fuel as they did before they built the engine up and advance their timing all the way. Thats essentially what your doing when you add forced induction to your engine and neglect the fuel management portion of your set-up.
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rgathright
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
14:08:36
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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I do not see Dodge giving us the same access to our computers as those modular Ford owners... Hmmm... which are you? I am a member of several 4.6L Ford forums, their technology is very similar to ours. If only we could get that PCM!
Fueling is a major concern for Dodge owners. Especially because these trucks (4.7L for sure) are cheap, non racing designed vehicles. We have the bare minimum injectors and fuel line. PHR had an excellent article a few months back that when applied to the 4.7L fuel system highlights it inefficiencies.
If only I could get a serial interface and a Commlink session running on my NGC. I would program the living hell out of my Mopar.
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Science Guy
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
15:23:59
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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let him do it! that's the only way he'll gain experience finding piston pieces throughout the motor.
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hybrid
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
17:45:06
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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rgathright,
I'd love to build a boosted stang, I've seen some really impressive power from those cars. but I got started in the other direction...import.
I actually built up (still building) my first car that I bought once out of highschool. I bought it because I love the styling. I just got bitten by the bug that causes me to squeeze as much power out of my car as I can. That and I love racing, cant get enough drag racing. That feeling I get when lined up that the tree waiting for the 2nd amber knowing that I'm the underdog expected to lose... and surprising a lot of people. Nobody expects my car to run 7's in the 1/8th mile. enough of that though, i'm getting impatient waiting for next season.
If someone woud come out with a program simular to what I have for dodge, i'm sure they would make a killing off it. If I know about that stuff I'd be busy building that program. The company that I bought my set-up from has been around for a few years, they have established their product. There are a few ingenious people who have taken that concept and applied it to their vehicles. They actually give the software away for free you just need to socket your ecu.
http://www.superhonda.com/tech/honda_ecu_programming.html
is a link to that sofware (or a write-up aboutit).
Something like that would change a lot of things. It would simplify a lot of the hassles of converting from N/A to forced induction. I know that there are complete stand alone systems out (haltec,motec, fast) but some of them require rewiring and are quite expensive. I know they have controls for up to eight injectors.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
19:46:01
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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Hybrid, what about the Perfect Power PRS?
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hybrid
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
21:08:47
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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N56629,
I haven't heard about the Perfect Power PRS, do you have a link to a website or anything?
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
22:01:17
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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The PRS is supposed to be a stand-alone engine managment system. They also carry some piggy-back systems.
http://www.perfectpower.com/products/prs.asp
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MudEater
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
23:04:47
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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Hmm, ok guys, but what about those two auxilary injectors. Im not planning on supercharging anything for now, but i also would like to know, for personal knowledge.
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jasonsdakota
Dodge Dakota
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12/21/2004
23:41:22
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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n56629, thanks for defending a guy.
everybody else, rest assured, i will not supercharge my car myself without professional help. i can do a intake manifold, fix a misfire code (recently done by swapping coil packs to see if it threw a code on that cyclinder too) and throttle body swaps (in my sleep) but aside from that i would need professional help. however, i still would like to be able to go into a shop and say look, mr k belle, i feel i need this, that, and so forth, and was wondering what effect the auxilary injectors had on running richer. i'm also curious how to increase duty cycle on my fuel injectors incase my new air fuel ratio slows less than 12.5 to one at wot but we'll leave that to another post. i'm very good at diagnosing problems on peoples cars and my own. i know my limitations do not include boosting my daily driver. forget about it. so to ease peoples minds, i'm not going to blow my engine up by supercharging without professional help. anyone ready to answer the original post or enlighten me. i've got a picture in my head of what it is but i could be off.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2004
11:56:52
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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Jason, your fmu or electronic fuel/time control unit should take care of that.
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rgathright
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2004
12:04:00
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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jasonsdakota, we are all learning, you should see some of the stupid questions I have asked in the past year!
No one posted a link of injectors yet eh? Here, http://www.reubengathright.com/47/cached.html is IdahoRt's auxillary injector pics for his turbo dakota.
Hybrid, I will give it a look. I need something to do until my IRS check comes in.
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N56629
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2004
14:57:26
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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Damn, that's a lot of plumbing. No wonder some people prefer superchargers.
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hybrid
Dodge Dakota
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12/22/2004
20:36:49
| RE: auxilary injectors?
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N56629,
Thats hardly any plumbing, about the same as a centrifical s/c if not less. You have to consider that he's running an intercooler too, the benifit far out weighs the extra piping.
Thats a nice set-up, looks good, clean.
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