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91 Dakota
Dodge Dakota
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5/29/2002
14:11:29

Subject: REAL lift
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Not a cheap, wannabe w/ lift blocks (ahem! trailmaster) Heckethorn has add-a-leafs for dakotas available through JC Whitney. they may be only 1 1/2"-2", but well worth considering, especially since a pair of the springs INCLUDING shipping is only $50. i also ordered a 125 decibel horn putting the total at $61. it should all be here this thursday or next tuesday. the torsion bars will be cranked up. trailmaster use front bracketry and new A-arms for front lift. i also have a 2" body lift w/ 31" tires. any guess on taller tires that'll fit? (i trimmed the fenders a bit)

Knobbyman
*GenIII*

5/30/2002
08:16:58

RE: REAL lift
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What year truck do you have?

'01 Graphite QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
4.5" Customized Suspension Lift
305x70x16 GoodYear MT/R's
http://www.knobbyman.com
----Speed only breaks stuff faster----

Toby
Dodge Dakota
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5/30/2002
09:44:31

RE: REAL lift
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Well, his name is 91 dakota soooo.........

Knobbyman
*GenIII*

5/30/2002
11:47:13

RE: REAL lift
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LoL that doesn't mean a thing anymore.. I was just talking to a guy named 2002Dakota but he really owned a 96 Dakota.

Anyway.. ;-) thanks for the info.

'01 Graphite QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
4.5" Customized Suspension Lift
305x70x16 GoodYear MT/R's
http://www.knobbyman.com
----Speed only breaks stuff faster----

91 dakota
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2002
03:35:02

RE: REAL lift
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well, the 1st response was right. a '91 dakota. it has a 2" body lift (came with the truck) and i hate it. but, hey, i can add 31s to it so, there is a give and take. the springs should be here within a few business days, according to JC Whitney. maybe tuesday. the springs come w/ the bolts and thats all. i figure if a someone comes up w/ some brackets for the front OR torsion bars to lift the front, then we have a 2" lift available to us.

arthur
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2002
12:40:37

RE: REAL lift
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I seriously doubt you will want torsion bars for your truck...if you really want to do it right the first time...coil-overs are the only way to go...that or a solid front Dana 44 and coil-overs...but then that's REALLY doin it right the first time.

Walt_Felix
Dodge Dakota
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5/31/2002
14:41:49

RE: REAL lift
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I sorry, I normally don’t pick posts apart but I really don’t understand what the hell you’re trying to say here. You’re saying you don’t want “a cheap, wannabe w/ lift blocks (ahem! trailmaster)” Then you go on to say, instead, your getting add-a-leafs from JC Whitney for $50.

That’s a better solution?

For $50 bucks you’re getting just a pair of leafs, not a new set of springs. Add-a-leafs really are not a “ lift ”. While they do raise the overall height some, their real purpose is to increase payload weight capacity. They do so at the expense of ride quality and suspension articulation. Now that you have one additional leaf, the spring is stiffer and it takes more force to get it to flex.

Second, if blocks are so phony, then why do most kits come with them these days? While I agree that spring lifts are stronger, blocks do have a purpose besides increasing ride height. In most cases, they also correct for the change in the pinion angle (which add-a-leafs do not) and do so without sacrificing ride quality. Since most 4x4 owners these days never take their trucks off road, overall strength is not a consideration. However, any change that drastically changes the ride quality is (ie. springs with more leafs or higher arches). Not to mention that most truck manufactures these days use blocks. Have you looked under a Ford Superduty or Ram 3500 lately? Cheap is using $50 add-a-leafs from JC Whitney’s because you don’t want to spend the $1200 on the Trailmaster kit with blocks. Better is taking you truck down to a spring shop and having them build you a set of springs.

Walt

91 dakota
Dodge Dakota
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6/01/2002
05:06:35

RE: REAL lift
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cheap wannabe meaning low quality. instead of using lift blocks in the rear, they should use springs. besides add-a-leafs ARE springs. springs at the bottom of a spring pack are not much larger than the add a leafs. besides, the term add a leaf is short for add a leaf SPRING. all lifts were created for was to give clearance OR give a higher payload capacity, such as helper springs, or adding a spring pack. i do know the consequence of adding leaves to my supsension; i'd rather do that than add a cheap (quality) suspension and pay for the damage in the end from spring wrap.
blocks are popular because they are CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP. a second gen. blazer lift is approx $350- maybe $500 before adding springs. after the springs, lift SYSTEMS (with springs) start at $500 and go up from there. Second, blocks can be homemade almost anywhere. theyre a terrible detriment to a suspension system and encourage breakeage. blocks higher than 4" or even at 4" are not recommended over springs by any installer or manufacturer. while considering ride comfort during offroading is necessary, doing the best and most efficient for the long run is worth the discomfort. 2" in lift is not so much to consider any change in angularity. besides that, Heckethorn makes a quality product anyway. not like as if they are acme springs. going over the ride height amount to cause u-joint breakage is the fault of the user.
since many off-roaders do take their trucks off-road and strength is of the utmost concern, going cheap and easy should not be considered an efficient albeit safe route to go. as already mentioned doing what is cheap and easy isnt the best, i.e. domestic manufacturers supplying undersized spares for vehicles. sure it is cheap and saves money, comfort and weight, but, how easy is it when you end up paying more for taking the easy route? cheap is $50, cheap is also $350. but, which one is most feasible (if for example, the blocks used were 2") when considering safety, breakage, money, practicality and the lifetime of the parts? now, $1200 is a ripoff. first of all the blocks are blocks. . . why don't they add springs? or 2" springs and 2" blocks? the only reason trailmaster charges so much is they have themselves in mind. first of all, they are the ONLY manufacturers of a complete lift for that dakota, second of all that truck style is a dead style, third, it is the I.F.S. and fourth, dumb dodge used torsion bars in the front, not expecting (not thinking) the front would be lifted, which is a style used in cars. building me a set of springs would be unheard of if i consider the trailmaster lift--$1300--ridiculous. they will charge me more in the labor of manufacturing them and installing them than to lower it and race it. besides, that is another tool to mess with. i am trying to sell it any way because of all this B.S. and get me a truck i can work with. beside how many people on this planet have built a spring setup on this dakota that was affordable (under $1000). why do you defend trailmaster anyway? who's interest do you have in mind? why do you feel the need to jump to their defenses? it really doesnt matter.

SuperBee
Dodge Dakota
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6/02/2002
01:14:31

RE: REAL lift
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are you sure you own the right brand a truck, you sounds like a whiney ford lover to me

Knobbyman
*GenIII*

6/02/2002
08:18:35

RE: REAL lift
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91 Dakota..

Have you noticed that almost ALL trucks now days use Torsion Bars up front? Dodge was just the first. At least in the Full Sized until you hit the HD & Super Dutys they use Springs and Solid front axles.

If you want to get picky about Dodge yell at them for not putting a soild front axle up front. That's what really screwed us up in my opinion anyway.

Also Quit complaining. If you find a good deal about add-a-leafs just state "$50 for Add-a-Leafs from JC Whitney" and list the part number. Personally I got add-a-leafs for my truck but now that I've ridden a truck w/ add-a-leafs and a truck w/ blocks I would have rather put 2" blocks in my truck instead. It's only after you break about 3" that blocks become a problem because of axle wrap. But 2" or 3" is fine. If what your saying is that trailmaster has 4" blocks. SO WHAT!? at least they made a quality lift for your truck. I'd jump at the chance to get a quality suspension lift for my truck. Just get some 2" blocks (about $30 and your $50 add-a-leafs) and quiet down. If you wanted to save some $$ cut those 4" blocks in half then you have 4 2" blocks.

Lets not argue with eachother.. Just share your experiances and opinions but don't yell and complain about something that we all know about already.

'01 Graphite QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
4.5" Customized Suspension Lift
305x70x16 GoodYear MT/R's
http://www.knobbyman.com
----Speed only breaks stuff faster----

91 dakota
Dodge Dakota
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6/03/2002
03:27:18

RE: REAL lift
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well duh. of course i own a dodge. thats been the trouble. i'd eat dirt before id own a ford tho. no decent lift available for this truck. i havent been able to talk with others that understand what im talking about; i get steamed about the limitations of this truck. but while i still have it, i figure i might as well have fun w/ it. the add a leafs are in, will be installed tuesday. i have a long laundary list of things i'd like to do, but if i am selling it, well,... the reason ford owners are whiny is 'cause they always have $hit wrong w/ their p.o.s. i agree w/ you whole heartedly knobby, but replacing it w/ solid axle would cost as much as the truck is worth. hey, i got stuck the other day (what else is new. i have open diffs) and the yokel who pulled me out said shift on the fly is bad for your front end vs. locking hubs. whaddaya think?
"$50 for Add-a-Leafs from JC Whitney": #6104. *thanx for the idea*
my point was... i dont think 4" lift blocks and $1300 in front end equip. is quality, when another company has add a leafs. thats just my qualm about the whole thing. you have the chance for that knobby, at $1300. but by then you could have one custom built. cutting the blocks is a fine idea, how would you lift the front? the torsion bars can only be torqued about 1 1/2" to 2." its the fact there is only one expensive halfway decent lift out there that makes me mad. ive tried to see different custom possibilities, but there arent any. im just venting and seeing what others have come across, maybe to answer all this. ive had the truck 6 years, and havent been able to do much with it and am fed up is all. been trying to sell for about 3 or 4yrs, and no luck. is an old style. so, im da#ned if i do and da#ned if i dont.

Knobbyman
*GenIII*

6/03/2002
07:56:41

RE: REAL lift
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Just wait a few years.. Get the thing paid off.. Then when it's a beater.. Switch out the front axles :-)

Least thats my plan for a few years down the road. (few = 9)

'01 Graphite QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
4.5" Customized Suspension Lift
305x70x16 GoodYear MT/R's
http://www.knobbyman.com
----Speed only breaks stuff faster----

91 dakoota
Dodge Dakota
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6/03/2002
20:21:17

RE: REAL lift
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my dad gave me the title to a '90 tempo all wheel drive that he was about ready to drive in the ground. i can use that as my daily and the dakota as my fun toy. i gotta get a real job now to pay for all that, now that ive graduated. . . solid front would be nice tho!

Knobbyman
*GenIII*

6/04/2002
08:00:20

RE: REAL lift
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Sweet! :-) now I need to get a bike... so I can have a 2nd ride.

'01 Graphite QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
4.5" Customized Suspension Lift
305x70x16 GoodYear MT/R's
http://www.knobbyman.com
----Speed only breaks stuff faster----

Hawkeye
*GenIII*

6/04/2002
08:36:57

RE: REAL lift
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Whiney Ford lovers??

I dont whine!

Walt_Felix
Dodge Dakota
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6/04/2002
12:17:53

RE: REAL lift
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To clarify what I was saying. First, I by no means am defending Trailmaster. I installed one of the Dakota kits on my ’88 and have repeatedly commented about the low quality of the kit. None of the Damn holes lined up during installation, the rear torsion bar anchor drop brackets that are prone to bending every time you get near a rock just like that ridiculous cross member that they have under the front differential. I’ve already replaced that f**ken thing twice because it can’t handle a light tap. The probable reason why Trailmaster doesn’t offer springs with that kit is because of cost. It’s cheaper to market it with the 3” rear lift blocks, as it is, it lists for $1800. Their target consumer will never consider spending that much money on a kit with only 4” front and 3” rear. If the price is too high, they don’t recover the cost of R&D and manufacturing. Most dealers have marked it down to $1200 range just to move a few and you know they are making nothing for margin on them.

You and I are basically saying the same thing when it comes to the pros & cons of blocks and add-a-leafs. The reason why I replied was you stated that you don’t want a “cheap wannabe lift” then go on to say your going to lift it using add-a-leafs. That too is a “cheap wannabe lift”! Like I said before, “Add-a-leafs are not a lift. While they do raise the overall height some, their real purpose is to increase payload weight capacity.” That is what they were originally designed to do. I agree the goal of people who lift a truck for better off-road performance is to increase ground clearance and suspension articulation. However, add-a-leafs don’t accomplish this, they actually decrease articulation because now that you have one additional leaf, the spring is stiffer and it takes more force to get it to flex. You sound like you are an experienced off-roader so you know the more challenging the terrain, the more likely one of the rear tires is going to loose contact with the ground because the springs won’t flex as easily, and with a standard equipped open rear differential, once that tire looses contact, your loosing all of your rear traction. It’s almost self-defeating. A better way would be to use springs with more arch and/or flipping the rear shackle. That way, you increase your ride height without sacrificing that much suspension travel or ride quality. Six years ago, it cost me about $400 bucks to have a new set of rear springs made at a local spring shop for a Chevy wrecker I ran. I installed them myself. Custom springs for a Dakota can’t be any more expensive than spring sets for a Chevy 3500HD dually wrecker.

The reason why Dodge built the truck with torsion bars is simple, they wanted to sell trucks. At the time the Dakota was introduced, Dodge had only a very small share of the market. They were far behind Chevy, Ford and many of the imports when it came to sales volume. Considering your average 4x4 owner these days NEVER takes it off road let alone lift it, Dodge went for the softer ride of the torsion bar configuration to appeal to their target market demographics. Making it easy to lift is probably at the bottom of the list of goals the designers/engineers had if at all on the list.

The point was, you sound like you wanted to do it better, then do it better. Save your money until you can afford to do it right and don’t mickey mouse with the cheap solution.

Walt

redskull
Dodge Dakota
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6/04/2002
21:25:48

RE: REAL lift
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I have the same predicement that Walt had and I'm looking for solutions, I need major help with lifting my 89 Dak sport 4WD, anything would be a great help, nothing to technical or expensive just stuff I can buy and have put on. I'm only 17 so money is a slight issue, but anything under $4,000 I can handle.

91 Dakota
Dodge Dakota
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6/05/2002
02:39:06

RE: REAL lift
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ok walt. whatever, we'v all made our point; knobby cooled me down and i realized some have money and time to spare and others dont. anyways, i lifted it today and got 2" and the wheel wells look pretty da#ned empty. i would like to put some les scwab mudders on it.it rides stiffer (thank god!), no more bounce. i cant believe how much 2" makes, nice.
redskull, like i was saying previous, you have 2 choices, ones i considered and one i DID: order part #6104 from rough country. they are add a leaf **SPRINGS** and WILL add at least 1 3/4" to 2". The pair thru JCWhitney costs $35, then add $14 for shipping. in my rear, it added 1 3/4" and torquing up the torsions 3 and 1 half cranks gave me just over 2", or 2" after it settles. HUGE difference, as it clears now the half point on my tires. rides stiff and not sproingy anymore; its great! OPTION 2: order the $1,400 lift **KIT** from trailmaster and you get 4" lift blocks :-( for the rear and new control arms for the front as well as other bracketry. good luck, hehehe!. i also have a body lift when i bought the truck. helps clear the 31"--soon to be 32" tires--a lot. once i sell the dodge, this b.s. wont be a problem. too many possibilites for problems with trailmaster's crap.

Dodgenut22
Dodge Dakota
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6/05/2002
12:38:37

RE: REAL lift
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91 DAKOTA,

It rides stiffer?? and you actually like it??

My '88 dak has 5 leafs in each side in the rear (Not installed to lift truck, the previous owner was a farmer, who like most farmers overload the he77 out of their trucks) When I got it it sat stupid, so I cranked the torsion bars and lifted the front about 2" (still sits lower than the rear) The thing rides like a dump truck. I hate it, one day when I have some free time I'm gonna rip those darn leafs out, If you waited I would have given them to ya for nothing.

Knobbyman
*GenIII*

6/05/2002
13:06:21

RE: REAL lift
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Crap :( I would have taken a set for either side ;-) Maybe if my truck isn't tall enough yet.......

'01 Graphite QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
4.5" Customized Suspension Lift
305x70x16 GoodYear MT/R's
http://www.knobbyman.com
----Speed only breaks stuff faster----

91 dakota
Dodge Dakota
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6/05/2002
16:02:11

RE: REAL lift
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yeah i like it. it doesnt ride nearly as stiff as 5 add a leaves tho, it takes out that mushy, bouncy b.s. and gives the feeling of a new truck supsension.
i went to les scwab, pep boys and big o. pep boys mudder only goes to 31 x 10.50, les scwab is expensive and big o is to, but they have this bad ass all terrain, the X/T. they were cool and offered to put a 33" on the front end. it fits, i just cant go wheelin' in them. so i will get 32s. my fender is hacked a bit already, as well. anymore and im cutting into the body support. now you all know.
future plans include 4.10 gears, limited slip (auburn), headers (edelbrock) and a split rear window.

P 1

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