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skeener
Dodge Dakota
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8/24/2005
17:09:07
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 Subject: If you were a Cop
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If you were a cop and saw someone that you could visually tell that they had been drinking and about to get in a vehicle would you A:) Stop them and tell them that they are not able to drive and have them call some to pick them up. Or B:)Let them get in their vehicle and drive and then pull them over and take them to Jail knowing that in that distance that they drove they could have wrecked and hurt someone or theirself?? What would you do?
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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8/24/2005
19:14:34
|  RE: If you were a Cop
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Stopping someone who looks like they are about to commit a crime, but have not yet done it, is called "Harrassment", and a violation of their civil rights. It leaves the patrolman and the city liable for huge lawsuite settlements.
Stopping them 50 feet later is called "agressive law enforcement", looks good in the stats, and gains funding for the department.
What would you do?
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Evan
Dodge Dakota
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8/24/2005
21:17:46
| RE: If you were a Cop
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I am finishing up my Criminal Justice Degree right now and you can't pull them over after they leave the bar UNLESS they show signs of being intoxicated while driving. The officer can follow the driver the entire way home, or until they leave he jurisdiction, and if the driver shows no sign of impairment, there is no traffic stop.
If the driver IS pulled over after showing signs of impairment the department will have it's numbers boosted and it's good work by the police, but they won't make any more money because of it. A department is lucky if they make $5 on a $120 ticket. Also their fiscal budget is usually the same year by year and is only a percentage of what the city budget is and only increases when the city itself has more revenue (taxes, little from tickets, court costs, restitution, etc.)
Sorry if I'm coming off like I think I'm a genius, I just love the CJ system and like to talk about it just as much!
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Evan
Dodge Dakota
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8/24/2005
21:19:08
| RE: If you were a Cop
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Also, that is Michigan Law, and I'm sure it can be different in others states.
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8banger
GenIII
8/24/2005
23:15:22
| RE: If you were a Cop
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I would think that it is a cops duty to prevent a crime that is about to happen.
03 Dakota 4X4 QC SportPlus 4.7L 3.55 LSD AWD
Superchipped, 2Chamber Flowmaster Dumped, K&N Drop-in, 2" Torsion Lift
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2005
01:09:47
| RE: If you were a Cop
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"I would think that it is a cops duty to prevent a crime that is about to happen."
That would be nice. But the ACLU would have a field day with it. And rightfully so. Imagine the cop pulling you over: "Well, son, it looked like you might want to do some speedin' up there".
Unfortunatly, common sense isn't. Especially when you get lawyers involved.
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Evan
Dodge Dakota
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8/25/2005
19:43:50
| RE: If you were a Cop
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Generally, a cops presence can usually prevent a crime before it happens. I definitely am not going to do a burnout with a cop behind me.
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Jecht
Dodge Dakota
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8/30/2005
17:49:05
| RE: If you were a Cop
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I thought if someone is drunk and just sitting in a car with the engine running could be charged with a DUI. a guy where I work at got charged for that. seen a guy charged with a DUI riding a lawnmower lol
also what if the cop lets the person drive off to follow him and he hits a person and kills him. what will people say about the cop then? he knew he was drunk but still let him get behind the wheel. the cop can stop the person and tell him that it seems like he had too much to drink and will call a cab for him. that is not harassment that is doing his job.
my cousin is a local cop in my city and he caught a bank robber afew weeks ago. now BOB you said "Stopping someone who looks like they are about to commit a crime, but have not yet done it, is called "Harrassment", and a violation of their civil rights. It leaves the patrolman and the city liable for huge lawsuite settlements. well he was driving around and stopped a guy walking. they guy looked like he did nothing wrong. wasnt even waring the clothes described. he stopped the guy and ask for his ID. when the guy went for his wallet. he had to pull down the pants he was wearing to get to the pants underneath. he drew his gun and told the guy to stop. now by what yo usaid bob my cousin had no reason to stop this guy. so was this harrassment? I think not. any cop can stop anyone. its only if they continue to stop the person everyday then its harassment. I have been pulled over becasue I drove a truck just like one that commited a crime. so if a cop lets a guy get behind the wheel knowing the guy shows signs of intoxication. then the cop failed in his duties to serve and protect the general public from a person that can casue harm to the public. also if the guy does shwo signs of intoxication then can be carged with drunk in public and hauled off anyways.
definition of harassment
harassment
n 1: a feeling of intense annoyance caused by being tormented; "so great was his harassment that he wanted to destroy his tormentors" [syn: torment] 2: the act of tormenting by continued persistent attacks and criticism [syn: molestation]
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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8/30/2005
20:55:37
| RE: If you were a Cop
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You'r quoting Webster, not a law book, and not a lawyer.
Obviously, you can be stopped for an observed crime. You can also be stopped for probable cause, which is what you described when driving a truck that looked like one used in a crime. There's also something else (the name escapes me at the moment) which is not probable cause but less, like suspicious activity. For example, you're hanging out in a strip mall parking lot at 0300 for no apparent reason. Then a cop can stop and ask for ID and check you out.
OTOH, lets say you're walking down the street and a cop stops you and asks for your ID. Do you have to show it to him? The answer is NO you do not. And, IMO, you should not.
This happened to me - and probably many of us here. You're walking down the street or through the parking lot, and a cop stops you and asks for ID. I refuse. That's harassment and illegal search. This is America, and we don't have to put up with that.
About 7 years ago, I gave my son a small motorcycle to ride. He went through the motorcycle safety course and got his license. One day he and I rode up to McDonalds and parked outside the door. As we were walking in a county officer met us at the door. He looked at my son and asked to see his drivers license. My son reached for his wallet, and I stopped him. The officer was "just curious". I assured him it was legal, and said no more. He left, and we stayed for lunch. He was waiting for us down the road. I waved as we went by, and he followed us home.
I was entering the motorcycle ralley in Pueblo on my Harley a couple years ago. When I entered the gate, some guy with a staff T-shirt tells me to pull over to the side so he can search me. I refused. It's a public venue, on county property. I asked him to show me the search criteria and he couldn't. I asked him to show me his badge, and he didn't have one. He just claimed it was a "random" search. No such animal.
He said he was not going to let me in unless he searched me. I said, "you're not going to let me in to this public venue on county property unless I waive my constitutional rights?" When he said yes, I asked for his name specifically so I could name him in the lawsuit. He waved me in without another word.
There is a certain amount of risk to accompany the freedoms we have. Letting the possibly drunk man drive out of the parking lot before busting him carries some risk. But I'm not willing to trash the constitution to eliminate that small risk.
Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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Evan
Dodge Dakota
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8/30/2005
22:26:06
| RE: If you were a Cop
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According to Barron's Law Dictionary 5th Edition, Harrasment is defined as:
In criminal matters generally, a prosecution brought without reasonable expectation of obtaining a valid conviction. Any excersice of authority in such matter as to be unnecessarily oppressive. Connotes purposeful actions and conduct motivated by a milicious or discrimanatory purpose.
That means, that yeah, the officer can go say that he probably shouldn't drive, but can't arrest him for getting in the car. He can do the "friend thing" by getting him a cab or finding him a ride and it wouldn't be harrassment.
There are a few problems with pulling someone over that LOOKS drunk when leaving a bar. Your first problem is it's PROFILING!! You can't just pull anyone over who comes out of a bar and stumbles. What if they trip on a crack? Have any of you ever known people to ACT drunk? I have. If an officer were to pull them over for that the city would lose millions!!! Someone just may not be able to walk straight and that's not a crime. If they can't drive straight however, that is reasonable suspicion. Regardless it's reckless driving, even if he's not drunk.
If the officer sees the person making a ruckus and causing problems he has the option to give in a public intoxication citation but he's not going to jail for that.
HOWEVER THERE IS A LOOP HOLE TO PULLING OVER SOMEONE THAT SEEMS TO BE DRUNK!!!!
There is the magical thing called pretextual traffic stops. The Michigan Motor Vehicle Code is much thicker than the penal code. This means that there are MANY ways to pull someone over. Tinted Windows, license plate covers, cracked windshields, etc. This means they can pull the person over and hope to see more signs of intoxication and ask the question "How much have you had to drink tonight?" That makes for a PBT or not and everyone is happy and it's done in a 100% legal way.
Now Jecht, your cousin had probable cause because there is more to a person's description than their clothes. If the face, height, weight, build, race all seem to match and they're wearing blue pants with a white shirt instead of red pants and a green shirt it doesn't matter, they still fit the description. Plus, he could have been in the area. Also, you can't get in trouble for sitting behind the wheel of a car while drunk if you aren't going anywhere. DUI= DRVING WHILE INTOXICATED, not Sitting while intoxicated. You have to be on the road. It isn't a cops job to babysit, he has to find a reason to stop that person not just because they left a bar. It's not the cops fault if the driver hits someone and kills them, especially if there is no visual reason to pull them over while they were driving.
LIKE I SAID, PRETEXTUAL TRAFFIC STOPS. THEY GET DOPERS, DRINKERS, AND A BUNCH OF OTHER STUPID PEOPLE WITH SIMPLE, LEGAL REASONS.
Hopefully, this will clear up some of the issues that we seem to be having here.
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.boB
Dodge Dakota
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8/31/2005
13:15:44
| RE: If you were a Cop
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Thanx, Evan. You explained it a lot better than I could.
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KY Joe
Dodge Dakota
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9/02/2005
23:58:42
| RE: If you were a Cop
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Hey Jecht,
This is no lie. There was a guy in Kentucky that got arrested for DUI while riding his horse. Yep, was intoxicated and had the horse saddled up and was riding. The lawnmower DUI is funny, but you gotta admit...a HORSE DUI is outrageous.
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fdgh
Dodge Dakota
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9/07/2005
01:33:28
| RE: If you were a Cop
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yep thats no lie i heard it on the radio, now call me crazy but i dont think that a horse would just walk out into on coming traffic.
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Dan M
Dodge Dakota
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9/07/2005
11:41:58
| RE: If you were a Cop
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All a cop needs is probably cause. If the guy is stumbling out of the bar over to his vehicle that is differnet than someone walking out of a grocery store to their car.
Then again there are also the public intoxication laws.
- Dan M
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