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00:52:14 - 12/20/2024
General Dakota Board
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Clark
Dodge Dakota
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12/28/2002
23:42:08
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 Subject: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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I am about to order a QuadCab 4X4 and I have couple of questions about the AWD option. 1) If you have AWD has it been a noticable help in bad road conditions? That is, do you think it prevented a mishap, or kept you from getting stuck?
2) How does it affect mileage? I would imagine that the added weight and extra mechanicals would reduce the mileage. Does anyone have any observations on this?
All responses appreciated.
,Clark
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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12/29/2002
00:48:30
|  RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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I like all wheel drive for grocery getters and soccer moms. I do not like all wheel drive for hard core off road use or long term durability. It will cut into gas millage but not like the old systems did. The newer Dakotas are not realy designed to be easily modified for hard offraod use and last i checked no one had a mass produced lift kit for it yet. Some even claim that they will not build a lift kit for it. So I can not see any reason why it would get in your way. Remeber though that the more complex you make something the greater the chance for failure!! I am kind of old school and would prefer a lever and manual locking hbs myself!!
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Clark
Dodge Dakota
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12/29/2002
18:51:56
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Thanks sandman. The Dakota I get will have to get me to and from work, to the lake, through severe upstate NY winters, and down fire trails and logging roads, but not rock climbing or looking for off-road challenges. I too prefer all mechanical hardware (as my F350 hiboy, and S10 LB pickup had), but it seems hard to find everything in one vehicle, and the size of the Dakota feels 'just right' - big enough for towing my larger boat and still being low enough to be able to reach the roof where I carry the canoe. The Dak would also have to carry me and my buddies from the bar back to the camp in the rain, so comfort and safety are high on the list.
Due to my insecurity with too many electronics (despite, or perhaps because of, having 20 years working in Information Technology), I have told my wife that I will need to buy an old stripped down jeep to fill a woods bashing niche in our 'automotive stable'.
It seems that the only drawback to the AWD transfer case is reduced mileage. Sandman, or anyone else, do you have any figures or sense of how bad the impact on mileage is? 1mpg, a half or quarter mpg, 2mpg, any idea?
Thanks in advance (hey, I may like this Dak ownership thing ...)
,Clark
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Eric
Dodge Dakota
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12/29/2002
22:46:12
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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I have the '02 QC with the AWD option and wouldn't change it. With the 4.7 and 3.92 gears, I average around 15-16 on the highway at 80mph and between 12-13 in town. I have a heavy foot. If you want a truck to get around on slippery roads without being technical for the wife (no offense ladies, some women just don't want to have to switch into 4X), AWD is worth it. Hopefully, Rancho will release their lift kit for the new dakotas in January like they say, because serious offroading with the limited stock clearance is difficult at best.
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mpil1
GenIII
12/29/2002
22:53:28
|  RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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I would think that AWD is an all round good thing to have. You still have the ability to lock the axles into 4HI and 4LO anyway like any other 4x4. So why not go with AWD?!?!? Only downfall I can think of to it is you might lose a little milage.
Mpil1
'02 SXT CC, 3.9L, 5-spd, 4x4, Trac-Loc...Not enough Mods Yet!!!
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Uncle Sam
Dodge Dakota
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12/30/2002
00:54:36
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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AWD is definitely worth every penny. Although I dont recommend, I have used 4Hi in heavy rain and I've not slipped once. I thought about spending the extra $, but i'm glad i did. Hope this helps.
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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1/01/2003
10:16:26
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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The problem with AWD is that it is always on so you have alot more wear of the T/case componets. You also get reduced towing capacity last time I checked. Seeing how you have shift on the fly anyways it seems kind of silly to me to pay for a computer to do that for me. I can definately see how it is easier for women folks and that is why I recomend it for grocery getters and socer mom. Check with DC and make sure that it can tow the weight you want to tow before you order it! I quess with the 7 year 100,000 mile power train warranty I would not worry about it so much but I did not get that I bought too soon. I also know that the system that the Jeeps used to use "quadratrac" was worthless. We used to tease everyone that had that worthless system. It always got them stuck in the thick stuff. So lets hope they fixed that.
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NYSubDak
Dodge Dakota
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1/01/2003
19:41:53
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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I'm not sure I see where the NP241 would lose much mileage. What is turning that wouldn't be with an NP231? If your answer is that the NP231 uses more gas in 4x4 mode, and since the NP241 is always in 4x4 mode, I disagree. I think a NP231 equipped truck uses more gas in 4x4 mode mostly because it can't ratio the torque, resulting in overdriving the front or back wheels during turns. The center diff in the NP241 precludes this by allowing a speed differential. As far as those who say that the NP241 is a waste because your only driving one wheel anyway, you're wrong. With the NP241 center diff, or for that matter, any front or rear diff on any truck, 4x4 or not, until there is a speed differential, the torque is evenly split down both or all four outputs. This means lower torque per wheel, increasing your margin to wheel spin. Even when turning, torque is still being applied to both wheels/drive shafts in varied amounts, until one wheel spins.
Wade
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Clark
Dodge Dakota
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1/01/2003
23:23:21
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Thanks for all of the responses. As I said, I live in upstate NY, Syracuse to be precise, and we have the New Process Gear factory here where the transfer cases are made.
I was shopping for a Dakota and I was persistent with the dealership in seeking more info on the AWD T-case. They put me with their service manager who showed me a training CD that had good graphics but still didn't reassure me. When I asked if they had any other info they searched their contact database and called a NPG engineer at home while I watched them dial. I got his name, but I'll respect his privacy. This was at 7pm (I was in the dealership after work) and he was home.
He worked as an engineer on the AWD T-case and bought a 2002 Dak with AWD about a year ago because he thought it was a superior system. He said that since then 4 other engineers who he works with have also purchased AWD Dakotas. I mentioned that he was probably biased and he laughed and said that if I buy a Dakota then I will be buying a T-case from the NPG plant either way, and that he was giving his informed advice.
He said he demonstrates the system to friends by placing two wheels of one end of the truck in the snow and the other two on the road, and then showing how the two wheels with traction pull the truck out, regardless of which end is in the snow and which has the traction.
The result? I just ordered a QC SLT, Atlantic Blue, 4.7L w\5 spd, AWD, LSD, ABS, skid pkg, HD everything (coolers and electrical), pwr- seats (40\20\40), windows, locks, mirrors (heated), overhead group w\compass, thermometer & trip computer, 265x70 tires, rear-window defroster, and Infinity sound system.
This should be a great vehicle for combating Lake Effect Snow going to work during the winter (we had 200" (almost 17 feet!) of snow two years ago), and getting around the Adirondacks in the Summer. I can't wait. Now if only there were a way to get a sunroof in a QC then it couldn't get any better ...
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Clark
Dodge Dakota
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1/01/2003
23:34:33
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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I also want to mention that the NPG engineer said that there is little or no impact on gas mileage, or front end wear, due to the AWD. The front shafts are turning anyway since the front hubs are always locked, which means that the gears are being driven 'backwards' in the sense that the drive gear and driven gear roles are reversed, which is a less efficent way for gears to mesh and consequently leads to reduced gas mileage.
The AWD system, on the other hand, simply drives what would already be turning, but drives the gears in the proper direction and adds to the available traction. I suppose I will know for sure when I drive the truck or a while, but it seems that almost no one on this board who got the AWD regrets it.
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JP
Dodge Dakota
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1/01/2003
23:38:45
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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I view AWD in the same way as 4 wheel ABS. Most of the time it is not needed, but when it is it is well worth it. A couple of apparent misconceptions; first, if you are a serious offroader the T-case can still be locked into full time 4wd hi or lo, second, milage is about the same as the part time system since all the same components are driven. Finally, I think the dry road handling is superior because the the truck is being pushed and pulled through corners. I would definitly get it again.
JP '01 SLT+ CC 4.7 AWD LSD ABS
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NYSubDak
Dodge Dakota
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1/02/2003
00:31:05
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Clark,
Believe it or not, I too am in Syracuse. Well, Baldwinsville actually. It sounds like you will use your truck the same way as I do. If I buy another Dakota (very possible), I will get the full time x-fer case also, I think you made a good choice. My biggest reason is that I have to have 4x4 capability for the heavy snow, especially near my camp at Panther Lake, but I can't be leaving the x-fer case in 4Hi-loc on my 40 mile drive to work in Oswego because of the speed. The NP-241 x-fer case will be perfect for my daily commute up through that nasty 481 corridor. I think your package is awesome, the only thing I would add to it is the 3.92 gear ratio with rear limited slip in back. I made that upgrade to my 2000 club cab 4x4 this summer and I am very happy. If you are even on the fence about the gears, get the 3.92 because it is very costly to upgrade later on a 4x4.
Wade
P.S.: welcome aboard!!
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FM18
Dodge Dakota
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1/02/2003
00:39:53
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Hi Clark,
I have a 2001 QC with AWD. Don't regret it one bit. I went through the same thought process you did. Got a written response back from a engineer at Dodge at the time and it said pretty much the same thing. It has definitely been a big help on wet roads. Never been able to spin the tires on wet or dry pavement and take off is great no matter how hard you punch it. It will spin all 4 wheels on gravel and sand though! Love that 4.7! Haven't had hardly any snow the last two years in VA so I can't say much about that. Did get to drive over some PA mountains that the roads were just getting snow covered and it did well that one time. You definitely made a good choice in my book :)
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RicKK
Dodge Dakota
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1/06/2003
09:43:09
|  RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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This may be a stupid question but - Why would you need LSD if you have AWD? Just curious
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Clark
Dodge Dakota
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1/06/2003
14:58:02
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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LSD with AWD makes sense for two reasons:
In AWD mode:
The LSD does no harm when in AWD because there is an open differential in the AWD transfer case. The AWD differential splits the torque evenly between the front and rear. Say there is 300ftlbs of torque, then 150 goes to the front and 150 to the rear. The rear LSD will try to split the 150ftlbs of torque it is receiving evenly between the right and left rear wheels, 75ftlbs to each. This will prevent just one of the rear wheels from spinning and the other remaining motionless.
However, the front wheels are connected to an open differential in the front gearcase, which means that if one slips then the other will stop driving. In this case, in AWD mode, it is concievable, but not probable, that one front wheel could receive all 300ftlbs of torque, if it has absolutely no traction (on smooth ice, or 'hung' in a ditch), and will therefore spin while the vehicle stands still. This is unlikely under normal driving conditions since weight is biased over the front wheels (engine, tranny, cab, etc) so they will have a greater traction potential. The rear wheels, which often spin on a V8 pickup truck under hard acceleration, are each limited to 75ftlbs and are less likely to waste energy in spinning. Thus this sytem is ideal for daily driving and over changing surfaces such as from pavement to snow, or pavement to sand, and back again.
In 4WD Hi\Lo modes:
When switched into 4WD (high or low) the center transfer case differential locks the front and rear driveshafts together, eliminating the open differential. These modes would be used in very poor traction conditions, such as mud, snow, ice, sand, gravel, wet boat launches, etc. With the locked transfer case the rear wheels and the front wheels are driven independently so that it would be impossible for a single front wheel to spin and consume all 300ftlbs of torque, the energy would be transfered to the rear wheels, with the LSD, instead.
Thus, the LSD provides a benefit in both AWD and 4WD modes.
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Texas Todd
Dodge Dakota
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1/06/2003
15:15:57
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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So, you're saying AWD, isn't really ALL Wheel Drive, as in all 4 all the time?
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Clark
Dodge Dakota
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1/06/2003
16:20:34
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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In 'AWD' mode ALL FOUR WHEELS ARE DRIVEN, the same as in 4WD Hi or 4WD low.
The only difference is that in AWD mode the connection between the front and rear driveshaft goes through an open differential that allows the drive shafts to turn at different rates. This permits the wheels to turn at different speeds as when going around a corner. It is this ability that provides the advantage of all wheels being driven without worrying about damaging gears when the wheels fight each other in 4WD on dry paved surfaces. The 'AWD' should probably be properly called "Full-Time Four Wheel Drive" (through a transfer case with an open diff.). There are other sophisticated AWD\FT4WD systems (Suburu, Mercedes, Lexus) which have variations on this theme, and which add to the confusing array of drive systems.
I live in upstate NY where the winters are snowy, blustery and cold. It is possible to drive over snow, wet road, ice, slush, and dry pavement all within the same mile on a highway at 60-70 mph, transitioning from a patch of one type of surface to the next very abruptly. In conditions like this the 'AWD' may be a life saver.
The AWD should also reduce understeer by pulling the front of the truck around corners. In locked 4WD, if a corner is aken too fas, if something doesn't break then the vehicle may be prone to roll-over as the front wheel 'digs in' since it isn't free to turn as fast as it needs.
The AWD is of less value in warm sunny climates, but it could be valuable anywhere where there can be rain storms or worse.
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RicKK
Dodge Dakota
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1/06/2003
17:46:34
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Clark where in upstate NY are you?
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HonkyBurger
Dodge Dakota
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1/06/2003
21:25:23
|  RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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I picked up my AWD Dak a few months ago and don't regret it at all. I was really worried about the power and mileage drain, but it's worth it. I had a 2000 4x4 and the AWD is way better in the rain and on dry pavement. You can put the gas pedal to the floor at a stop light in heavy rain and not a tire spins, you just launch. It's pretty amazing, I really had to baby my previous Dak in those conditions. I would say that the AWD system steals some power though, you have to get the V8 to get the AWD, that's what scared me. Guess it could be that the V6 tranny wouldn't match up right with the AWD x-fer case though...
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JP
Dodge Dakota
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1/06/2003
22:03:15
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Clark, Excellent explanations. I find that few people really understand how the AWD system works on the DAkota and even fewer can describe it.
JP
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Clark
Dodge Dakota
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1/07/2003
23:56:03
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Thanks JP, The benefit of trying to explain something to someone else is that it oftens clears your own understanding. So I certainly gain from the attempt.
Rickk, I live in Syracuse, which is the city that the movie "Snow Day" was based in. We often have beautiful Summers, but the Winters can be severe. NYSubDak said in an earlier post that he lives in Baldwinsville, about 15 miles from me, so he knows what it is like. When cold air from Canada blows over the warmer water of Lake Ontario it condenses the water vapor as it is carried along and is dumped as snow when it reaches land.
HonkyBurger, I considered the bit more work that the engine would have to do with AWD so I orderd the 4.7L with the 3.92 gears. If I'm not satisfied with that then I'll try out those HO cams that many folks on this board rave about.
My truck won't arrive for about 4 weeks yet, so I continue to drive my '89 S10 LB 4x4 which got banged up against a guard rail when it spun on some black ice (a thin coating of nearly invisible but devilishly slippery ice for those of you who haven't experienced it). Due to the conditions and how the accident transpired, I think AWD and ABS may have save the day if I had had them.
One thing that is available for the S10 that I haven't seen for the Dakota is an after market 40 gallon tank. At 20mpg it would give an S10 an 800 mile range. At 15mpg for a heavy QC it would provide a 600 mile range. That would be a bit more comforting range to me.
The majority of folks on this board seem to be good people who just enjoy their truck, among other things. One thing that is kinda neat is that some folks are into street performance, some are into off-roading, some into styling, and some just looking for general advice. It is this diversity of uses for trucks that sets boards like this apart from some of the classic or sports car sites I visit. Those vehicles are less multi-purpose and tend to have a less diverse group of owners.
We certainly are lucky to be able to have such great tools and toys, friends, and freedoms.
,Clark
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vdubbin86
Dodge Dakota
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1/08/2003
11:50:47
|  RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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I think I may be one of the only people here that doesn't like the AWD option. That's one of my main points when buying my new Dakota is that it has a part time case. I just can't live with the power loss.
I have one question though. You say that you get worse mileage by having the part time case cause everything is turning anyway??? It should only be the axleshafts turning and the front diff should lock in when 4x4 is engaged. I don't think the driveshaft and gears in the front diff would be turning when in 2wd. If they do then I think that I may have to rethink my purchase.
Could someone clarify this?
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Clark
Dodge Dakota
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1/08/2003
16:08:37
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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From my conversation with the New Process Gear engineer, who owns an AWD Dakota himself, he stated that the front hubs on the Dakota are not auto-locking but are locked (engaged) all of the time. He then went on to say that this "drives the front gears and driveshaft" and therefore has no less mechanical load that the AWD except for the differential in the AWD transfer case. It may be that some sort of auto-locker is in the front gearcase, I don't know. I cannot bear witness to this myself, since my truck is still on order, but other Dakota owners could verify if this is true. Using a person as an observer, or using a mirror held below the open driver's door, put a Dak 4x4 with a part-time transfer case in 2WD and slowly roll forward. If the front driveshaft turns then the gears in the front pumpkin are being driven by the wheels. I would like to hear from anyone who has an opportunity to check this out.
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Steve
Dodge Dakota
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1/09/2003
07:41:24
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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If you want my thoughts, I purchased my 2001 AWD QC used. I knew it was a 4x4 but did not relize it was the AWD model until i got home with it. Guess i was more caught up in the infinity stereo, leather interior and moonroof. But anyway. At first i was pissed that i missed that but after reading about what AWD is i was open to try it out. I live in the hills of NW CT so having the AWD for wet, sandy, light or heavy snow going up and down the hills of CT its great to know if you give it gas you will go. My ranger was useless in these condition unless 4wd was engaged. So, from someone who never wanted AWD, got it by mistake and really likes it. I get around 14-15 MPG average
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HonkyBurger
Dodge Dakota
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1/09/2003
18:40:59
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Clark, the NV engineer was right, the front driveshaft moves when a PT transfer case is in 2WD. I checked this on my old 2000 4x4 Dak.
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RicKK
Dodge Dakota
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1/10/2003
12:50:47
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Clark, I live in Saratoga, NY. Have had about 5 feet of snow in the past 2 weeks. Thanks for the explanation of AWD, I ordered my 2001 without AWD. now wishing I had gotten it. Always driving in just enough snow to make it slick but not bad enough to lock it into 4wd.
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Silverbullet
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
13:14:45
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Hi,I love my AWD truck.I bought a 2001 QC with awd and had a guy in very bad rain storm loose control on the other side of interstate, slide threw medium and hit us head on.All I got to say is my truck didn't move much when he hit us.I think it could have save my family life because we didn't get pushed into other lanes of traffic.What did almost killed us was when the air bag when off we thought truck was on fire so we bailed out and almost got hit by traffic not stopping and sliding around us.I really like the AWD also in the mud and sand seems to work good.I live in the Ocala national forest so I get to use quite abit.I had to trade my 2001 in because they fixed it after the wreck,I only made 2 payments on it and didn't want some wrecked truck so I traded it on a 2002 with AWD.Man I'm writing to much laters.Brian
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Mr.H
Dodge Dakota
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5/13/2003
13:37:44
| RE: Is AWD worth it? did it save your butt?
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Well, here's what happens when you DONT have AWD!!
Friday or Saturday night I was making a 10 mile trip back to the house here in the Little Rock area up 167 N. The rainfall was very heavy and all I could see were the yellow lines, so I didn't slow down cuz I can usually see when other people can't so I never do slow down much. Well, I have the CC 5 spd 4.7 and the back right tire is slick!! At 60 mph the backend decides to just slide right and left and around we go into the median and luckily not into oncoming traffic OR into a mudhole. I did have a chain in the back so I stood by the road holding it up for all to see and two people stopped within a minutes time. One of the guys had a 5.4 BOSS that I've been wanting to race, but I thought that was real nice considering that look I keep giving him when we pass.
Get the AWD or at least good tires!!!!!! Had we slid to the left first, we'd've been in the trees on the right side. That could've meant certain death... I'm just glad I'm still here!!
For what it's worth, if I would've had the trac-lok installed it may or may not have avoided the whole thing, but I KNOW I could've drove out of the ditch b/c I wasn't buried at all.
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