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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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9/23/2002
12:28:35
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 Subject: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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Thanks for your request. TBN, ASTM D 2896, mg KOH/g, typical, for both SAE
> 10W-30 and SAE 15W-50 is 11. 11 is right up there with Amsoil. It would appear that Mobile is pretty close to an extended drain formula again.
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Lab Rat
GenIII
9/23/2002
12:35:18
| RE: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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Is that for the Tri-Syn formulation?
LR
Gibson Dual Sport, AirForce One air intake, Jet II, IAT, TPS, when are we gonna see some real parts??!!
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
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9/23/2002
16:24:26
| RE: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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This is for the TRi-Synthetic Super Syn formula currently being marketed her in the USA. I only asked about the 10W30 and 15W50 so their answer reflects that. I posted their reply. Amsoil product still appears to be suppior but it looks like Mobil 1 is catching up. I realy hate the idea of haveing to mail order my oil. I am holding off until I get my oil test back. I want to see the proof that Amsoil is going to protect my engine better before I cough up $20.00 a year for prefered customer account. As it stands right now retail sales Amsoil is to expensive for me to to consider with out the preferred customer account. I bought 3 quart of the old formula the other day and it came to $18.60 and I can get 5 quarts of Mobil 1 for $17.89. I have always left mobile 1 in for 6 month intervals with out a problem reguardless of millage. The big thing with Amsoil is I can get all of my products through them and that is a huge selling point. The next big selling point is the fact that they make a good product and stand behind it. I just hate the mail order part. I hate to have to pay shipping on oil. The extended drain is also a big selling point but others offer this too. If the series 2000 was not so insanely high in price I would not even be writeing this. Amsoil should consider droping the price on the old formula lower then Mobil 1 to stir sales and interest and think about lowering the price of the Series 2000 $8.70 a quart is insane for oil. If all synthetic had cost that much back in the 1988 I would still be useing dino oil. So while I am leaning toward Amsoil products myself I am still exploreing other options until I have proof in hand. I am also trying to keep others informed of what I learn as I go so they can make well informed choices as well. The Amsoil camp is well represented and they have been very helpful and provided alot of good information. It is not just Amsoil either I hated this same thing when I used Redline I always had to call and order my oil or tranny fluid or gear lube. I did not have this problem when I lived in the huge cities but know I live in a small city and have a hard time finding anything.
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Lab Rat
GenIII
9/23/2002
16:45:09
| RE: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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I hear ya. I looked and looked for a local retailer but since there isn't one I went with M1. Steven was real helpful, but yes paying S&H for motor oil goes beyond reality for me. Add to that the fact that I can't bring myself to go beyond 3K intervals and the cost would be outrageous. It also still bothers me that they're marketing vitamins and fertilizer. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for corporate diversity, but branch off under a different name and don't associate the divisions. Rediculous case in point: would you buy soft drinks from a company that also makes enemas if you knew about it? OK, that was a little extreme but maybe you see my point. It bothered me a bit to see Steven pitching his lubrication products and throwing in the infamous "by the way, did you know we also make such-in-such?". It probably doesn't bother anyone else but I personally don't care for it-the name AMWAY has come to my mind as others.
I may in the future consider their products, but my baby's only about four months old w/6K; gonna run with something I'm familiar with.
LR
Gibson Dual Sport, AirForce One air intake, Jet II, IAT, TPS, when are we gonna see some real parts??!!
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
9/23/2002
21:43:17
|  RE: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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Message:
Sandman,
TBN is one of the physical and chemical measurements made on engine oil. It is not a direct measure of an engine oil's performance. The higher the number is not necessarily better.
The total base number (TBN) is a measure of the engine oil's ability to neutralize any acids that may be formed during the combustion of fuel.
Historically, the higher the engine oil's TBN, the better its ability to neutralize any acids that may be formed. However, starting out with a high TBN "DOES NOT GUARANTEE" that the engine oil will RETAIN its high level of TBN during service.
With the movement towards extended engine oil drain intervals and the future of exhaust gas recirculation to reduce emissions there is a greater need for the engine oil to contain an effective detergent/dispersant additive system that will not only effectively neutralize any acidic components that may be formed, but also retain its TBN throughout the engine oil's drain interval.
An engine oil's TBN will deplete (fall) over time and use. With the desire for longer oil drain intervals, an engine oil that has a TBN of 8, 10, or even higher could actually have a TBN of 4 or 5 by the time the oil is changed. Therefore, it is critical that an engine oil exhibit very-good-to-excellent TBN capability in order to prevent engine wear and bearing corrosion.
The ability of an engine oil to retain its TBN throughout the engine oil's drain interval is dependent upon the type of detergent/dispersant additive chemistry used in it's formulation.
It is important to choose an oil that not only effectively neutralizes any acidic components that may be formed but also can provide excellent TBN retention over the engine oil's drain interval.
How high of a TBN is really necessary and how critical is the number?
This question comes up continually, and it deserves some clarification. TBN is not a measure of an engine oil's performance, and an engine oil with a higher TBN number such as 13 or 14 is not necessarily better than an engine oil that has a TBN of 10. There are two things that are more critical to know about TBN than its starting point: how it measured and the rate at which it depletes.
There are actually three test methods, however, most used oil analysis programs use the ASTM-D2896 method unless another test method is requested, because this test method is easier and faster to run.
Since TBN is a very critical factor, especially with the advent of EGR containing engines which will produce and introduce more acidic components into the engine oil ...and you'you're trying to extend oil drain intervals, the ASTM D-4739 test method should be used and specified by you.. The ASTM D-4739 test method provides a more accurate indication of serviceability, especially if you're trying to extend oil drain intervals.
The second important feature of TBN, more critical than how high high it is rated, is the rate at which it depletes (drops) during use. Some engine oil's start with a high TBN and then drop and lose their neutralizing ability quickly. Other engine oils can start with a lower TBN, deplete at a slower rate and maintain their alkalinity for a much longer period of time.
Naturally, what is important is how well an engine oil can maintain its TBN during service. The real value of a TBN number is not determining an engine oils quality; it is in making sure an engine oil is not becoming corrosive before the end of a drain period.
This is another case of requirements changing with the times, and the old tradition of a TBN level of greater than 10 for vehicles cannot be used as a rule of thumb anymore. Engine designs have drastically changed over the years and fuel sulfur levels have dropped significantly during the last decade, so that even in off-road application, where fuel sulfur can be as high as 0.5%, the demand for a very high TBN rating cannot really be justified. What is more important is how the engine oil's TBN will last and maintain it neutralizing ability over the entire oil drain.
Hope this helps.
Steven
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Lab Rat,
I do recall once or twice throwing in the infamous "by the way, did you know we also make such-in-such?".
Here is why:
1) Studies show that today's "engineered" foods have less vitamins and minerals than the foods our parents and grandparents ate. Therefore it is important to take supplements and my wife saves approximately $200 per year using ALTRUM products.
2) I use AGGRAND Natural Organic Fertilizers because it is "better" for my grass, plants, trees, and the environment
3)I have installed AQUA BRITE Under-the-Counter Water Filtration because with the recent droughts I noticed my household water tests were showing higher levels of contaminants. NOTE: Los Angeles recently authorized the allowance of higher levels of fecal materials (poo) on a "parts-per-billion" basis to save water ... and save on the costs of recycling water. YUCK !!! :-(
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All of these products are available on my website. If I can help the environment or assist in the health and well being of fellow humans, I feel I have an obligation to do so. :-)
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Hey, You guys are GREAT !
We are all here to live and learn !
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants and Truck Care Products
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sandman
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
9/23/2002
22:27:23
|  RE: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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Message:
Steven, Thanks!!! I could care less if AMsoil also sells vitimins and fertilizer. I realy like you. I just hate haveing to pay a fee every year to get a good price on oil. It seems like the price you get as a prefered customer should be the price all the time and to everyone. Hell I know that Amsoil is going to give the Sponsor a kick back for every prefered customer they get and they will still get commision on sales so why not just sell the oil at a good price with out the funky direct marketing scams!!! I see some Sponsors auction away prefered memberships on ebay for next to nothing so I would imagine that the $20.00 is not going to corperate coffers it must go to the uplink. Priceing is all over the place and if I have an emergency and need a case of trany fluid right now I am screwed! I would have to stock pile oil and other fluids just in case. I thought about becomeing a dealer but once you get out of the big cities here in Michigan it trying to sell Amsoil would be like trying to sell Tofu to a Texan!!! It is possable but it would be an up hill fight all the way. I am on a realy tight budget and often I can not purchase all my oil at one time. I have to buy 2 quarts this pay day and 2 quarts next payday and 1 quart of trany fluid at a time until I have enough to service my vechile. So the shipping would absolutley kill me!!!! I would have to change my oil with Mobil 1 this time and then save up for six solid mounths to buy enough amsoil to make the initial $20.00 allmost worth while. I am trying to talk my Father in to ordering with me so the shiping cost would not be insane. So for me it is not only about performance but also about cost. So we will see. I just wish their was someone localy with a decent selection of amsoil. I am raly interested in the dual bypass filtration system and the open cell foam air filters. I have all the paper work you sent me on prefered customer so we will see. I might just have to try to shuffle my bills around so I can order atleast a case of combined various products to keep shipping down. Again thanks for all the information. I will let the whole group know how the Dodge does on oil test. It is primarliy my wifes truck. I drive it once a week to work (40 miles one way) at 80 MPH to burn off water vapor and keep battery charged other then that it mostly sits or gets around town driveing less then 5 miles a day. In two months it has aquired 1000 miles so as you can see the oil takes a beating in her truck.
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MightyDakSXT
GenIII
9/24/2002
00:31:01
| RE: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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Message:
I have to agree with Sandman. I think I'd be more willing to buy AMSoil if I didn't have to order it and pay shipping. I also don't like the idea of having to pay a yearly fee to get cheaper prices. If you figure in the fee with the oil plus the shipping costs, it's up there. The thought of allowing my truck to go over 3,000 miles without an oil change makes me shudder. Then again, I'm the type of guy who thinks I'm being irresponsible if I go 1 mile over 3,000 miles. I can understand how changing your oil once a year might save money as far as buying oil, but that's just something I personally don't feel comfortable doing. I too wish that AMSoil was available in stores and at a price competitive with Mobil 1.
2002 RC SXT, 3.9 Liter V6, 5-spd, 3.55 rear, Extang Tonneau, Autolite 3923 Plugs, Borg Warner Cap & Rotor, Quick D Intake, Modified V8 TB, Gibson Exhaust, Robert Shaw 180° T-stat, Custom Grille, Custom JBA 9mm Power Cables
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Dr. D
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
9/24/2002
02:13:08
| RE: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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Message:
Just because an oil has a high Total Base Number does not mean that it is superior to another oil that has a lower one.
Oils should be judged by their overall performance during it's full service life.
I own some very expensive construction equipment and commercial lawn equipment and I have been using AMSOIL for years and it has served me very well, one of my favorite products (and the one that saves me the most money) is the 100:1 Two-Cycle Oil; I save about 65 cents on every gallon of gas that I mix for my trimmers, Edgers, etc.
I became an AMSOIL preferred customer back in 1994 and have been one every since and I like all of the benefits that you get with the membership. The cost to become a preferred customer is tax deductible if you itemize your taxes.
As a former user of many different synthetic oils (including Mobil1) I must say that "bang-for-your-buck" you just can't beat AMSOIL.
Dr. D
p.s.
Please don't bash me because I shure ain't gettin paid to say any of this.
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AmsoilSponsor
DakotaEnthusiast
9/24/2002
08:28:42
| RE: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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Message:
Dr. D.
In order to clarify your statement: "The cost to become a preferred customer is tax deductible if you itemize your taxes."
The cost is ONLY deductible if you are a business owner and use Amsoil products in your vehicles and/or equipment, or if you are a "retail on-the-shelf" store. Also, if someone is in the 25% tax-bracket the benefit is only $5 so the "out-of-pocket" cost is still $15. I understand why people don't want to "pay" to become a preferred customer. That was "the" reason I waited 4 years before I coughed up the $20 myself.
Suggestion: Interested parties could "partner" with friends and/or family and "pool" their orders and split the $20 annual fee. I have a lot of clients doing that. You would be suprised how quickly the orders (and the savings) add up doing this.
Steven Roark , Amsoil Dealer , Proud Sponsor of DodgeDakotas.com
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils, Lubricants and Truck Care Products
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yates-in-DE
GenIII
9/24/2002
09:38:07
| RE: Mobil 1 TBN Value!!!!
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I'll order the Amsoil at today’s Preferred Customer prices as long as they pay freight, and I don’t have to pay a Preferred Customer fee. If not, I'm going to continue to buy MOBIL1 at a lesser price and let Wal-Mart or AFEES pay the Freight charges.
Maybe I'm a stick in the mud, but I've used MOBIL1 for a very, very long time. I've tore down my engines with 80 - 90,000 miles on them and have had very little internal wear, and no sludge build up. I'm paranoid of extended drain intervals. I drain my oil every 4,000 miles regardless. I do not baby an Automobile in any way; in fact, I dog the crap out of them. Not trying to be a smart-a$$, but with a $20 yearly PREFERRED CUSTOMER fee, paying the freight charges, and nearly double the cost per quart, they had better be sending a fine female, blonde bomb shell around to see me a couple times a year.
I hope no one takes offense at this but it's my $.02.
Later,
MyVW Killer
Lynn
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