| From | Message |
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/19/2002
09:15:04
|
 Subject: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Most all ricers hav timing belts vice the chain, stock rice motors arn't made for radical mods. ie.cam, compresion, injection, stroke, ect. anyone ever see a timing belt pop at about 6,000 rpm? I have. wasn't pretty all four pistons smashed into valves sendin most of the vave train and other variouse internaly lubricated parts tumbling onto the pavement. Advice from an experienced technitian-stick with the V8 for mods and racing, to the contrary it's moor RELIABLE and engineered to withstand modifications that produce high hP. Rice motors not only are incapable of producing the hp. of a V8 the entire drive train is sensative.
|
Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/19/2002
09:40:10
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
That's true. 4 cylinder engines tend to be of the configuratin where the valves cannot be fully opened while the piston is at TDC. Sometimes called an interference arrangement. Some good ol' V8s have this, but not many. Most V8s have enough clearance that the valves won't interfere with the piston's travel.
|
E
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/19/2002
11:35:21
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Just to play Devil's advocate...
"Rice motors not only are incapable of producing the hp. of a V8 the entire drive train is sensative"
I would re-consider that last statement. I've heard of riced out, 10 sec. Imports puttin out some serious ponies (granted, its mostly high RPM-not much torque) and running the STOCK CV joints/drivetrain.
Wish I could get a Dakota into the 10's with the stock rearend/drivetrain! You gotta give those engineers some credit.
|
Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/19/2002
12:35:24
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
There's alot of ricers around my work. Alot of the drivetrains are having problems at higher performance levels. Such as the 13-14 second range.
I've been noticing that the ricer community is learning something that the classic hot rodder community learned 30, 40 and even 50 years ago. One guy was pulling 640HP out of a 4 banger, impressive, but after a couple of blocks going out because of the cylinder walls he had the block filled. And as you guessed, he runs a little warm, and he's having traction problems (FWD==bad weight transfer characteristics).
Some of the guys who run huge open exhausts are boggling at why they are having to replace the valves every 12-20k miles (no backpressure causes them to suck the valves). Disabling the wastegate on turbo motors produces massive horsepower gains, however head gaskets don't last quite as long.
Old lessons being rediscovered by a new crowd.
|
ZenDak
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/19/2002
12:59:20
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Out of curiosity...
Keeping everything stock..except a catback (flowmaster 2 chamber, split duals),,,,this isn't going to cause any adverse affects, will it?
I mean it's not 'THAT' free flowing to cause damage to the valves is it?
|
Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/19/2002
13:42:31
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
if you have cats, that's enough backpressure.
|
IntenseDak39
GenIII
3/19/2002
13:55:35
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
i think i had the one rice motor without a timing belt... a mitsu 2.6 in a 82 lebaron. 5 quarts of oil and a true double roller timing chaim. My other car was a shelby that had the 2.2 and after several mods (rebuilt, .04 bored over, mopar rockers, high rpm lifters, Forward motion 475 cam, no exhuast, stock turbo, no intercooler, high strength valve springs, mopar logic module, etc, etc, etc,) the engine would easily do over 7000 rpms. made a guesstimated 275 horsepower (guess by foward motion, fwd dodge performance dealer) and weighed in a little less than 2000 lbs.
intense
"How's my driving?........Race me and find out!"
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
10:15:02
|  RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Rubber band for a timing belt, plastic timing gears, 7/8" transaxle and drive train engineered for about 180 HP. I don't get it 640bHP> out of an inline 4? mabe on your planet but not here on earth. I cant achieve those figures with my dyno program, no mater what you strap into the 4 banger.I can't get that kind of HP. out of my small block V8's. I get 9-10's out of them in the 1/4 and thats with the best strip equiped motors I cn build on $10,000 pretty good. I would love to see one of these 10-sec. UFO 4's at the track but to be honest with you Iv'e never seen one and I live at the track on weekends.The best Ive ever herd of was 13's and the kid was bragging, what the *&%(*%# .
|
Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
11:08:35
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Note: I never said it was reliable. I mean, the guy was going through engine BLOCKS. I think all of us would expect a small block's block to take 650HP w/ light or no modifications from GM, Chrystler, and Ford. I saw a video of a guy dynoing a 402HP four banger, it didn't make more than 150HP until 6500 RPM. Meaning that it'd be a slug from a rolling start.
As far as drive trains go, it's usually torque that kills them. A high speed-high power drive train really only needs good lubrication and bearings. However a high torque drivetrain needs a bit more. Jeep places a transmission in thier wranglers that wasn't ment for a torquey application in the '80s and people were having to replace them almost as often as tires. It could handle gobs of power, it had excellent bearings, however the 4.2L straight six produced too much torque.
Another example of this is the NV3500 in my '02 Dakota vs. the NV5600 in my dad's '99 Ram. There's only a 15HP difference between the engines, so why does the Ram need a transmission that is so much more massive? There is a 165Lb/ft of torque difference. The Cummins would thrash every single gear in the NV3500 before the engine could show it's stuff.
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
11:37:09
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
A late model small block V8 regardless of manufacturer, or model, with little or no modificatins will produce no moor than 320 Hp and u can take that to the bank. 600??? what vehicle. I need one.
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
11:44:13
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
ie, Crank bearing journals (2) bolt can't hang with any load bearing rpm range.
|
SinCity R/T
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
11:52:42
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
These guys are easily pumping 300-400hp out of their little 4-cylinders. I've seen plenty of 9-10 second Civics and CRX's at the track. Most of them achieve this by stripping their cars to the absolute lowest weight possible, then cranking the boost on their turbos into the stratosphere along with other engine mods and sometimes nitrous on top of it all. Most of these engines crater relatively often, but that's the price for quick runs.
There's a 1980's Plymouth Reliant doing 10.4 in the quarter with a 2.5L 4-cylinder turbo without spraying nitrous, and this guy doesn't have one of the super-high-tech motors that are being used in the newer/sponsored ricemobiles at the tracks. He's got his turbo shot up to the 35# range to get the power.
Small engines can make plenty of horsepower when built properly... Oldsmobile made a 2L engine throw out 1000 horsepower, and Indy engines use very little displacement as well.
SinCity R/T
http://www.dakota-durango.com
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
11:54:40
|  RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
How much torque do u believe would be envoved w/a 640 HP motor bolted to a honda accord drv. train? like I said Uh-Ua not hapening.how about unibody? doesn't even have a frame. u would probably be hauling the whole car off to the boneyard after one run even if you could figure out a way to apply the fantasy 600+Hp 4cyl. to the drv. train
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
11:58:42
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
I say again- (Rubber timing belt...Plastic timig gears) Come on.
|
Crusty
GenIII
3/20/2002
12:10:37
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Hey Phil G. Pasca, I know youre one of those stubborn old guys who cant accept the fact that Japanese cars are fast, but all you have to do is go down to the local grocery store and pick up one magazine about ricers. That will answer all your questions.
Japanes motors are famous for lasting longer, running better, and being stronger than hell. This is a fact. Those guys across the Pacific are some smart a$$ engineers, and if they wanted to they could make a torque monster.
Remember that all of these ricers, well most (except RX-7, Supra, 300ZX, and some others) were designed to be economy cars. So when you see a Civic streak down the 1/4 in the 10's it is amazing. The old 100hp per liter addage comes to mind.
Yes it is possible to build a V8 faster than any four cylinder, but it is rather remarkable that they are making so much power out of such a small motor.
In motocross all the two stroke riders are angry over the Yamaha YZ250F. Why? It makes more torque than a two stroke and gets better traction due to the fact that it fires every other stroke instead of every stroke, like a two stroke. Much controversy, same issue. People are resilient to change...
2002 4x4
Modification Donations Accepted at Paypal.com
|
IntenseDak39
GenIII
3/20/2002
12:18:04
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
there is a bolt on turbo kit (stage 4) that will put a stock neon into the 10's with out any weight reduction. Mopar action or Mopar now did a article on it a couple of months ago. It didn't say the power figures but you have to realize that these things don't weigh as much as big block chebbies or 440 coronets.
intensedak39
"How's my driving?........Race me and find out!"
|
Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
12:24:00
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Phil: go to Lingenfelter's website and you'll see him pumping smallblocks w/ 400-500HP quite easily. Hell, even GM rates thier LS-1 at 305-405 HP (depending on the trim level).
Anyone reading this thread have a 360 Dak putting out more than 320HP? :)
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
12:27:22
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
stock w/ little to no mods.?
|
IntenseDak39
GenIII
3/20/2002
12:51:01
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
my mom's LS1 is putting over 400 HP at the crank with minor mods; exhaust, intake, spark plug wires, mass air flow sensor, and hypertech programmer... and yes that was dynoed... 335 at the wheels - automatic - 20% drivetrain loss
intense
"How's my driving?........Race me and find out!"
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
12:54:07
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
13:17:06
|  RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Just went to the LS1 home page forum 305RWHP W/no mod's.I'll give you the 335 bHp but look at the mod's she's got> Hardley little to none.I'm not the story teller here.
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
13:30:16
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
hey mine dyno at around 520 andI get 9-10s.and the ricers your talking about get 9-10s too somthing just don't add up.
|
Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
14:06:54
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
remember that most of these cars are weighing in at under a ton. A ricer that I work with has a 14.2 second CRX (N/A, probably about 200HP) that runs down the strip at 1900Lbs incl. driver. It may take 450HP to pull mid 12's in a 3500Lb Firebird (less w/ cheater slicks), but a bit less in a 1900Lb matchbox car.
(for the record, I like the big+heavy combo better :)
|
Jon
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
14:16:56
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Not all engines are doomed if the timing belt grenades. I have a list around here some where of interferance/non-interference engines. For example, 1982 and up toyotas with a timing belt are non-interference. Therefore you can't damage the engine when the belt breaks (which is uncommon anyways).
Hey i have a chance to get a 426 wedge for my Dak, you guys think it would fit between the fenders??
-Jon
|
IntenseDak39
GenIII
3/20/2002
14:23:43
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
i am not the story teller... i will get the dyno sheets from my dad when i go there if you want me to. exhaust and intake and computer are not major mods. i have seen a (personally) a LS1 with that same combo with a supercharger and cam put 579 HP at the wheels.... but that's just me story telling again!
a camaro's base weight (from car and driver) is around 3200 lbs. with now 325 horsepower (ss). a little better than a 1:10 power to weight ratio. get a 200 horsepower 4 banger that weighs in at 2000 lbs and you will get the same ratio... from there it's almost all about driver, gears, and traction. and if i remember correctly on a front wheel drive the engine sits on top of the drive wheels to provide better traction.
intensedak39
"How's my driving?........Race me and find out!"
|
Demon-Xanth
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
14:37:22
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
*playing both sides of the argument*
Intense: at slower rates of acceleration FWD does help, however weight transfer causes a shift backwards. The result is the harder you accelerate the less traction you get. With RWD the harder you accelerate the more traction you get.
With extreme rates of acceleration a front engine-rear drive setup can pull the front wheels off the ground.
Try watching tractor pulls and note the air that comes under the front wheels when one hooks up really good.
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
15:22:33
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
hey Jon you are right about non interface toy's not all ricer's will pop by loosing hdydrolic press. to the lifters or by jump time. And yes I do believe a Wedge will fit in your dak. only prob. I can think of is you may have to mash the right tside header in a little to accomidate stearing knuckle/colum.and a matched trany may require drive shaft alteration.
|
IntenseDak39
GenIII
3/20/2002
15:26:15
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
i am not trying to argue... i have just seen some statements that i see as being false, lik -"A late model small block V8 regardless of manufacturer, or model, with little or no modificatins will produce no moor than 320 Hp and u can take that to the bank."
that's just not true... a camaro ss puts out more than that (and corvette) but a regular Z28 puts out 305 maybe 310 now and a muffler would put that over 320... and that's a little modification.
i agree about the front wheel drive thing... most fwds that peform have the back jacked up to transfer weight
intense
"How's my driving?........Race me and find out!"
|
Phil G. Pasca
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
15:30:39
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Good point Demon-Xanth, you sound a bit moor realistic.ie,200HP, 14's 12's this is about what I would expect from a vehicle given the variables you have descibed.weight and Hp, fwd. bolt on mod's ect.
|
QUADMAN
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
16:20:53
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Ok I must be missing the point here. I am a tried and true detroit muscle man myself BUT! I have to give credit where credit is due. If you think some of the new ricers aren't capable of speed then you have been sniffing too much gas! As far as getting into the 10's with a bone stock 4 banger yes I find that hard to believe but think 12's could be done fairly easy. I know you could hit 10's with a few 6's. I think what your not looking at here is the weight difference between the cars your building and the ricers. Weight as you should know plays a big role, as they say, weight is horsepower! A great example is ricer street bikes. Now there are some four bangers that will hit 10's stock!
|
SinCity R/T
Dodge Dakota
JOIN HERE
3/20/2002
17:23:20
| RE: Ricer's doom
IP: Logged
Message:
Maybe this will drive the point that 'turbo 4 cylinders can do a helluva lot more than you think' through that thick cro-magnon skull of yours.
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/ - Click on the link for 'The Reliant' at the top and see the TIME SLIPS and VIDEO CLIPS of this guys '85 PLYMOUTH RELIANT 2.5L 4-CYL TURBO ripping a 10.4 quarter mile run WITHOUT NITROUS.
See Venom Performance's vehicles - A Honda Civic running 9.28@157mph in Phoenix just 3 days ago. www.venom-performance.com. 4 CYLINDERS.
Are these things anywhere near stock? No.
Do these things typically break a lot under these conditions? Yes.
Can a V8 be physically modified to pump more hp than a 4-cylinder? Yes.
Does the term 'Anybody can go fast, all it takes is more money' apply? Yes.
Would you have to be a stupid old fart to not realize that your antiquated views on how to make a vehicle go faster are creeping out of date? YES.
All it takes to go faster is more power with less weight. It's a lot easier to get there with more displacement or cylinders, but it's not impossible by any means.
|
| | P 1 Next Page>> |
